North-South rolling stock debate

[Bertie the bus]

Note: split from Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

Give the guy credit, he is spending his own, and hic companies money, he is paying taxes through employing people, he was probably shot in the foot by politicians as his trains may well have been ideal for many Northern routes, and may be not but he was not given the chance to prove it because of concern over votes.

That is utter rubbish. Passengers are worthy of better than Class 230s. Nothing to do with buying votes but passengers in the north finally getting at least some half decent stock.

Some of the tripe on here is unbelievable - a bloke who worked in the rail industry has created a 'train' so we should buy it and those up north aren't worth much so they should have it forced on them.

Did you ever watch Scrapheap Challenge? They built boats but they weren't commissioned by the Royal Navy. Just because somebody builds something doesn't mean the government or anybody else has to give them money for it.

 

[bramling]

passengers in the north finally getting at least some half decent stock.

Like all those 175s, 185s, 333s, plus long-distance stock which serves the north like the 390s and Voyagers. Sure we can debate the quality of all these, but they're still new.

 

[D365]

The posting of mine to which you have replied was concerning 3 x 3-car Class 230 sets running in multiple and the platform lengths of stations on branch lines that such Class 230 units of that 3 x 3 car length length would be stopping at in service.

It was naught to do with non-stop passing of same by ECS stock that obviously not be stopping at branch line line stations.

I don't believe that the intention of running three three-car Class 230 units in multiple is to provide a longer train in passenger service, just like there are very few Sprinter trains that run in nine-car formation. Indeed, a nine-car Class 230 set would be 50% longer than a D Stock train!

 

[47802]

Like all those 175s, 185s, 333s, plus long-distance stock which serves the north like the 390s and Voyagers. Sure we can debate the quality of all these, but they're still new.

Yes of course London and the South is really hard done by with the thousands of carriages recently built or on order for Thameslink, Crossrail, Great Northern, GWR Thames Valley, SWT, London Overground, Gatex and Anglia.

I'm getting fed up of southerners saying that any old rubbish is good for Northern while they go around in their new Air Conditioned Trains.

I think we should leave it at that.

 

[D365]

Yes of course London and the South is really hard done by with the thousands of carriages recently built or on order for Thameslink, Crossrail, Great Northern, GWR Thames Valley, SWT, London Overground, Gatex and Anglia.

I'm getting fed up of southerners saying that any old rubbish is good for Northern while they go around in their new Air Conditioned Trains.

I think we should leave it at that.

Many of which are replacing trains that are 20, 30, even 40 years old. The average age of suburban rolling stock down south has often been greater than elsewhere.

 

[47802]

Many of which are replacing trains that are 20, 30, even 40 years old. The average age of suburban rolling stock down south has often been greater than elsewhere.

Yes and what are Northern getting some Thameslink castoff's, some new trains, replacement of 30 year old Buses and a large fleet of 30 year old sprinters which will likely be around on the Northern Franchise for at least another 10 years, so while it will be an improvement it will hardly be opulent, but apparently that too good for some people Northern needs to have some old Tube trains as well.

 

[D365]

Good god, we've been through this enough times haven't we. I don't see any kind of improvement in rolling stock as a bad deal.

 

[philthetube]

That is utter rubbish. Passengers are worthy of better than Class 230s. Nothing to do with buying votes but passengers in the north finally getting at least some half decent stock

And when I am travelling between Colne and Preston on the oldest stock which Northern has to offer, because that what is will happen, I can feel happy in the knowledge that at least I was protected from those horrible 230's with their fast acceleration and new feel.

I am not saying that they would be brilliant trains, (they may be heaps), but I am not saying they would be rubbish either, I just don't know and don't feel qualified to judge, however for politicians and others who know even less than me is frustrating to say the least, all they should be saying is if they are good trains we will look at them instead of using them for point scoring.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good god, we've been through this enough times haven't we. I don't see any kind of improvement in rolling stock as a bad deal.

Nor I. I have upthread identified several branch lines that have a characteristic of typically low loadings with heavy overcrowding at certain times (but no scope to lengthen trains due to platform lengths) on which they would be an excellent fit in the original D-stock part-facing, part-longitudinal layout.

If new DMUs are actually cheaper by all means buy new DMUs (I am, it is noted, a particular fan of Stadler in this regard, but others would do). But if they are cheaper than new DMUs then why not?

 

[47802]

Nor I. I have upthread identified several branch lines that have a characteristic of typically low loadings with heavy overcrowding at certain times (but no scope to lengthen trains due to platform lengths) on which they would be an excellent fit in the original D-stock part-facing, part-longitudinal layout.

If new DMUs are actually cheaper by all means buy new DMUs (I am, it is noted, a particular fan of Stadler in this regard, but others would do). But if they are cheaper than new DMUs then why not?

Well lets put it this way at the moment we still have rail links between Major Northern Towns and Cities worked by Railbuses which is simply not good enough.

The Northern Connect will fix this with new trains and 158's, that's long overdue in my view, and the minimum standard for the non connect services will be a refurbished 150. That's the minimum standard that should be required in my view and doesn't leave room for 230's in my book.

Some people seem to think that 230's will be superior to 150's from a passenger perspective, personally I think that's highly debatable and from a TOC perspective they are a lot less flexible than a 150.

If Northern had opted for 230's instead of new trains then we would have had Northern connect services worked by 170 and 158 assuming you had a Connect service at all. Non connect 170 and 158 services probably worked by 156's and 156 services likely worked by 150's or 230's. Does that really represent a significant step forward for Northern.

As for being cheaper than a New train yes they probably but not by that much by all accounts, and when you take into account the longer life span and better product of a New Air Conditioned train which represents the better value.

 

[bramling]

Yes of course London and the South is really hard done by with the thousands of carriages recently built or on order for Thameslink, Crossrail, Great Northern, GWR Thames Valley, SWT, London Overground, Gatex and Anglia.

I'm getting fed up of southerners saying that any old rubbish is good for Northern while they go around in their new Air Conditioned Trains.

I think we should leave it at that.

There are plenty of stations in in London and the South where you will be boarding trains dating back to the 1970s or 1980s. Meanwhile London Underground's A stock exceeded 50 years, and the Bakerloo Line's trains are currently being life extended and are certain to see 55 years in service, and may well reach 60.

 

[Bantamzen]

There are plenty of stations in in London and the South where you will be boarding trains dating back to the 1970s or 1980s. Meanwhile London Underground's A stock exceeded 50 years, and the Bakerloo Line's trains are currently being life extended and are certain to see 55 years in service, and may well reach 60.

And at the same time tens of billions is being spent on new lines and stock. I hardly think the south is being badly done to because some stock is still quite old, especially on the tube. I'm not saying that the north should have equal amounts spent on it, but after 3-4 decades of having large squadrons of Pacers operating services they were never really designed for, it will be nice to see new stock more capable of the work expected of them, whilst the remaining stock (a lot of it from the 1980's) refurbished and used in place of the even older Pacers.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If new DMUs are actually cheaper by all means buy new DMUs (I am, it is noted, a particular fan of Stadler in this regard, but others would do). But if they are cheaper than new DMUs then why not?

May I ask you a question that has its base in the 21st century. How many of the current unit manufacturers would currently come to the market which an arcane body shape unit on the British rail system and expect customers not to make comparisons to the more aesthetic and stylistic body shapes that currently are the norm?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't believe that the intention of running three three-car Class 230 units in multiple is to provide a longer train in passenger service, just like there are very few Sprinter trains that run in nine-car formation. Indeed, a nine-car Class 230 set would be 50% longer than a D Stock train!

May I refer you to the comments made by Dstock7080 in his posting # 4786 where he was the one to raise that matter originally.

 

[childwallblues]

Rather an ironic choice of words, given that one of the routes originally mooted for the units was the Penistone line- which would have had the units calling at Berry Brow which has the TLA of BBW!

TLA of BBW??

 

[najaB]

TLA of BBW??

TLA - Three Letter Acronym (meaning the station code in this case)
BBW - Big Beautiful Woman

 

[47802]

There are plenty of stations in in London and the South where you will be boarding trains dating back to the 1970s or 1980s. Meanwhile London Underground's A stock exceeded 50 years, and the Bakerloo Line's trains are currently being life extended and are certain to see 55 years in service, and may well reach 60.

Well aside the fact that the majority of Trains in London and the South are Electric which tend to have a longer lifespan than the many Diesel North since you persist lets look at that in Detail

TFL
All New Surface line Stock
Relatively New Electrostars for London Overground with additional New Stock on order
New Crossrail fleet which will replace inherited 315/317
Granted some of the Deep Tube stock is fairly old but then there a massive order in the pipeline to start replacing these.

Anglia
Complete fleet Replacement

C2C
late 90's Electrostars plus 6 new 387's

Thameslink
Complete fleet Replacement some cast offs to Northern

Great Northern
Order to Replace 313's
Nearly new 387's plus some 365 retained.

Southern
Largely a fleet of relatively Modern Electrostars some aging 455 but a 455 is still better than a Northern 150, plus a few aging 313 which have been extensively refurbished.

Gatex
Recent Complete fleet replacement

South West Trains
Largely a relatively new fleet of Desiro's with additional units on order
Some aging 455/456 which may be replaced in the new franchise.
Fleet of Ageing 158/159 however by comparison that's Northerns best DMU and makes up roughly 20% of Northern's fleet. Even with the combination of 158/170/195 it will take it up to about half Northern's fleet.

GWR Thames Valley
Almost complete fleet replacement with some Turbo Units retained for now postponed parts of the electrification scheme.

Chiltern
Early 90's Turbo units upgraded to Aircon, with newer Turbostar Units, extensively refurbished Loco hauled Trains with new Locomotives, of course Northern has some Loco Hauled Trains as well except the Loco's are 50 years old.

London Midland lines out of London only
Extensive fleet of relatively new Desiro's with a very few cast off 319's with will very likely be replaced in the next franchise

South Eastern
Fleet of relatively modern Electrostars, Javelin Trains, and early 90's Networkers

So yes London and the South is really hard done by I don't Think, now OK as well some improvements for Northern we are getting some New Trains for TPE and so I'm not saying the north is particularly being hard done by the current plans, however I do find it annoying when people try and justify some old tube train for the north by digging up an example of an old electric train that still runs in the south when the investment that has gone into and is still going into new trains in the south is massive.

 

[47802]

Precisely, they forget the reason why we have had lots of new stock is that what we had going into the late 90's/early 00's was prehistoric and needed replacement, the northern fleet on the other hand was a lot newer.

It may have been newer but a lot of it was very cheap and nasty, and some people seem to want to perpetuate that in the North, so I make NO APOLOGY WHAT SO EVER FOR DRAGGING A NORTH/SOUTH DIVIDE INTO IT

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It may have been newer but a lot of it was very cheap and nasty, and some people seem to want to perpetuate that in the North, so I make NO APOLOGY WHAT SO EVER FOR DRAGGING A NORTH/SOUTH DIVIDE INTO IT

Seconded.

 

[reddragon]

Well aside the fact that the majority of Trains in London and the South are Electric which tend to have a longer lifespan than the many Diesel North since you persist lets look at that in Detail

TFL
All New Surface line Stock
Relatively New Electrostars for London Overground with additional New Stock on order
New Crossrail fleet which will replace inherited 315/317
Granted some of the Deep Tube stock is fairly old but then there a massive order in the pipeline to start replacing these.

Anglia
Complete fleet Replacement

C2C
late 90's Electrostars plus 6 new 387's

Thameslink
Complete fleet Replacement some cast offs to Northern

Great Northern
Order to Replace 313's
Nearly new 387's plus some 365 retained.

Southern
Largely a fleet of relatively Modern Electrostars some aging 455 but a 455 is still better than a Northern 150, plus a few aging 313 which have been extensively refurbished.

Gatex
Recent Complete fleet replacement

South West Trains
Largely a relatively new fleet of Desiro's with additional units on order
Some aging 455/456 which may be replaced in the new franchise.
Fleet of Ageing 158/159 however by comparison that's Northerns best DMU and makes up roughly 20% of Northern's fleet. Even with the combination of 158/170/195 it will take it up to about half Northern's fleet.

GWR Thames Valley
Almost complete fleet replacement with some Turbo Units retained for now postponed parts of the electrification scheme.

Chiltern
Early 90's Turbo units upgraded to Aircon, with newer Turbostar Units, extensively refurbished Loco hauled Trains with new Locomotives, of course Northern has some Loco Hauled Trains as well except the Loco's are 50 years old.

London Midland lines out of London only
Extensive fleet of relatively new Desiro's with a very few cast off 319's with will very likely be replaced in the next franchise

South Eastern
Fleet of relatively modern Electrostars, Javelin Trains, and early 90's Networkers

So yes London and the South is really hard done by I don't Think, now OK as well some improvements for Northern we are getting some New Trains for TPE and so I'm not saying the north is particularly being hard done by the current plans, however I do find it annoying when people try and justify some old tube train for the north by digging up an example of an old electric train that still runs in the south when the investment that has gone into and is still going into new trains in the south is massive.

Oh I love this pointless north-south divide argument (not)

The south has the oldest trains in the UK

1938 stock IOW
1960 class 121 Chiltern
1972 stock Bakerloo line
1973 stock Piccadilly Line
1976 class 313 GN & Southern
1970's HSTs on GWR / GN / Midland

All before the oldest up north with the class 507/508 but then 508 cars still run on the southern in class 455s which are 1982

Then 315/317/455 all in the south

Oldest DMUs? 150001-002 - GWR in the south

This age thing doesn't wash at all and the north has lots of new trains on order too.

OK, perhaps you'd like to pay down south prices for fares up north?

£52.50 peak Reading to Paddington for 36 miles or £15.20 Manchester to Liverpool peak? Even first class is cheaper than standard is down south!

Get real.

 

[asylumxl]

.OK, perhaps you'd like to pay down south prices for fares up north?

£52.50 peak Reading to Paddington for 36 miles or £15.20 Manchester to Liverpool peak? Even first class is cheaper than standard is down south!

Get real.

I also believe many TfL projects and rolling stock orders are funded from their own budget, with the majority of said budget coming from London's own revenue. Furthermore, the TOCs in the South are generally less heavily subsidised per passenger mile.

It'd certainly be interesting to see how the North would do without subsidises from elsewhere in the UK...

 

[fredk]

1938 stock IOW
1960 class 121 Chiltern
1972 stock Bakerloo line
1973 stock Piccadilly Line
1976 class 313 GN & Southern
1970's HSTs on GWR / GN / Midland

And yet, despite age, I would prefer to use any of those over a Pacer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Other than the HST I wouldn't.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[reddragon]

And yet, despite age, I would prefer to use any of those over a Pacer.

Wouldn't the pacers make good garden sheds or pigeon coups?

Northerners can then keep their memory alive!

I do dislike the pacers, and D78s are much better than pacers and even 150/155/156s on commuter services.

 

[47802]

Oh I love this pointless north-south divide argument (not)

The south has the oldest trains in the UK

1938 stock IOW:
1960 class 121 Chiltern
1972 stock Bakerloo line
1973 stock Piccadilly Line
1976 class 313 GN & Southern
1970's HSTs on GWR / GN / Midland

All before the oldest up north with the class 507/508 but then 508 cars still run on the southern in class 455s which are 1982

Then 315/317/455 all in the south

Oldest DMUs? 150001-002 - GWR in the south

This age thing doesn't wash at all and the north has lots of new trains on order too.

OK, perhaps you'd like to pay down south prices for fares up north?

£52.50 peak Reading to Paddington for 36 miles or £15.20 Manchester to Liverpool peak? Even first class is cheaper than standard is down south!

Get real.

Here we go again trotting out a few examples of old Southern Trains despite the fact that the vast majority of trains in London and the South are better quality and newer.

1938 stock IOW.
1960 class 121 Chiltern: Randon 1 off unit that's an irrelevance
1972 stock Bakerloo line: Tube stock replacement order under consideration.
1973 stock Piccadilly Line: Tube stock replacement order under consideration.
1976 class 313 GN & Southern: Replacement order for GN313's
1970's HSTs on GWR / GN / Midland: Some of those actually go to the North! in any case GWR HST's to be replaced except some retained for use on South West local Services. EC HST's to be replaced and both North and South will benefit in that instance.

Meanwhile Northerns 1st gen Sprinter fleet is likely to be retained until at least the mid 2020's it will be interesting to whether SWT 158/9's are retained in the new SWT franchise or replaced.

 

[Clip]

Here we go again trotting out a few examples of old Southern Trains despite the fact that the vast majority of trains in London and the South are better quality and newer.
.

And again, there was a time when the North had newer and better quality trains than the south. And you simply cannot deny this.

We simply do not have the capacity nor the money to completely fund new fleets at the same time every 30 years so the south gets new ones then the north and the circle keeps turning and the argument will never go away.

 

[D365]

Meanwhile Northerns 1st gen Sprinter fleet is likely to be retained until at least the mid 2020's it will be interesting to whether SWT 158/9's are retained in the new SWT franchise or replaced.

would you rather we fully scrapped the Sprinter units, without retaining any for capacity enhancement?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It may have been newer but a lot of it was very cheap and nasty, and some people seem to want to perpetuate that in the North, so I make NO APOLOGY WHAT SO EVER FOR DRAGGING A NORTH/SOUTH DIVIDE INTO IT

I assume by "a lot of it" you mean "Pacers". Class 150s may be relatively nasty, but they are not cheap, and their bodies are identical to the huge swathes of Mk3-derived 20m EMUs found down South on very similar services to where the DMU is found up North.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's also worthy of note that one of the routes I propose as ideal for the Class 230, Bedford to Bletchley, last time I checked was located down South.

 

[The Ham]

Here we go again trotting out a few examples of old Southern Trains despite the fact that the vast majority of trains in London and the South are better quality and newer.

1938 stock IOW.
1960 class 121 Chiltern: Randon 1 off unit that's an irrelevance
1972 stock Bakerloo line: Tube stock replacement order under consideration.
1973 stock Piccadilly Line: Tube stock replacement order under consideration.
1976 class 313 GN & Southern: Replacement order for GN313's
1970's HSTs on GWR / GN / Midland: Some of those actually go to the North! in any case GWR HST's to be replaced except some retained for use on South West local Services. EC HST's to be replaced and both North and South will benefit in that instance.

Meanwhile Northerns 1st gen Sprinter fleet is likely to be retained until at least the mid 2020's it will be interesting to whether SWT 158/9's are retained in the new SWT franchise or replaced.

Conversely there are trains in the North (TPE) that are a LOT newer that are due to be replaced with new units.