Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[dgl]

Watched the midlands today short interview and whilst the cause of the fire is still under investigation they reckon that it was probably a fuel leak.
If that is so then it shouldn't be a hugely difficult fix hopefully.

 

[HLE]

After watching that I have a message for Adrian Shooter. Keep going.

It'd be great to still see it trialled on the Nuneaton branch - how about test running it on matchdays? Leave the dogbox for in the week and for the normal service but use it for the matches.

Fair play to the guy. He could've chucked the towel in, but is still planning new technology.

Come on Vivarail, solve the engine/fuel leak issue and get the damn thing out running.

With brexit.....and all the new orders for new trains....I can foresee the 230's being considered if we have to tighten belts.

 

[47802]

After watching that I have a message for Adrian Shooter. Keep going.

.

I think my message to Shooter would be to send him a list of Scrap Dealers

 

[Clip]

I think my message to Shooter would be to send him a list of Scrap Dealers

Im sure he knows who they are already given he has been a railway man for 40 years - how does that match up with your railway experience and knowledge?

 

[nuneatonmark]

I agree with HLE, he needs to keep going and prove wrong the naysayers.

 

[squizzler]

I agree with HLE, he needs to keep going and prove wrong the naysayers.

Another vote of support. I think the industry needs more plucky underdogs to bring colour to proceedings. The railway needs heroes again, maybe such characters can inspire people to become railway engineers.

 

[Bantamzen]

I agree with HLE, he needs to keep going and prove wrong the naysayers.

Its not we naysayers that he needs to prove the concept to, it is the TOCs. And so far the 230 has failed to do so. Over 2 years in, only one test unit that is current sidelined due to a serious fault has been rolled out. Considering that Porterbrook aim to produce a D319 in less than half the time, its not exactly looking good for VR.

But that's not the project's only problem. Perhaps, just perhaps the 230 isn't what TOCs are looking for. Perhaps TOCs are looking for something longer term, and perhaps more flexible. The assumption is often made that 230s would be an ideal fit for low speed and isolated branches. However TOCs may want their units to be more than just this, perhaps they want units that can operate more flexibly than the 230s.

Just because Shooter is a popular character among some here does not mean he has the right to be 100% sucessful everytime. That's life I'm afraid.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I realise it was some months ago, after a VivaRail presentation to LURS, in post #3120 I did confirm that 3x 3-car units could couple in multiple.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2576077&postcount=3120

I wonder how many of the branch lines that have been put forward have station lengths that could take 3 x 3-car units working in multiple?

 

[philthetube]

Its not we naysayers that he needs to prove the concept to, it is the TOCs. And so far the 230 has failed to do so. Over 2 years in, only one test unit that is current sidelined due to a serious fault has been rolled out. Considering that Porterbrook aim to produce a D319 in less than half the time, its not exactly looking good for VR.

But that's not the project's only problem. Perhaps, just perhaps the 230 isn't what TOCs are looking for. Perhaps TOCs are looking for something longer term, and perhaps more flexible. The assumption is often made that 230s would be an ideal fit for low speed and isolated branches. However TOCs may want their units to be more than just this, perhaps they want units that can operate more flexibly than the 230s.

Just because Shooter is a popular character among some here does not mean he has the right to be 100% sucessful everytime. That's life I'm afraid.

Give the guy credit, he is spending his own, and hic companies money, he is paying taxes through employing people, he was probably shot in the foot by politicians as his trains may well have been ideal for many Northern routes, and may be not but he was not given the chance to prove it because of concern over votes.

It is difficult to compare with the D319, would porterbrook ever have even thought of it, and how much are they "borrowing" from Vivarail, and how much time has that saved.

 

[Bantamzen]

Give the guy credit, he is spending his own, and hic companies money, he is paying taxes through employing people, he was probably shot in the foot by politicians as his trains may well have been ideal for many Northern routes, and may be not but he was not given the chance to prove it because of concern over votes.

It's not yet time to give credit, he hasn't yet come up with a proven and viable product yet. That's the bottom line. Imagine if Arriva had been allowed to go for a 230 option, and instead of having firm orders in for builds were still sitting around waiting for a single unit to be available for passenger testing? Right now this forum would be alight with debate about the risk in opting for an unproven product versus proven ones (i.e. the CAF units), and the media would be having a field-day ripping VR to pieces over failing to deliver tarted up cast-offs (this is how they would portray them in this context). And in the meantime DfT would be busy trying to negotiate further cascades and exploring options to keep the Pacers on well past 31/12/19. It would have been a complete mess. For once, the DfT took the sensible route and insisted that Northern receive new builds, not refurbished, re-tractioned units.

It is difficult to compare with the D319, would porterbrook ever have even thought of it, and how much are they "borrowing" from Vivarail, and how much time has that saved.

Maybe so, but nonetheless VR had a significant head start on Porterbrook and still look like coming in second, even if the two products are aimed at slightly different markets. I’m sorry but the 230 should at least have made it to passenger testing by now, and now that LM have pulled away is there any TOC left that will still take a punt? By the time they could produce enough for a half-decent sized order, many new builds will be running around in the wild and cascades will be well under way. If I’m going to be honest, VR’s window of opportunity has all but closed. So unless they can find an overseas buyer, then the project is all but over and just waiting for the fat lady to finish her vocal warm ups.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's not yet time to give credit, he hasn't yet come up with a proven and viable product yet. That's the bottom line. Imagine if Arriva had been allowed to go for a 230 option, and instead of having firm orders in for builds were still sitting around waiting for a single unit to be available for passenger testing? Right now this forum would be alight with debate about the risk in opting for an unproven product versus proven ones (i.e. the CAF units), and the media would be having a field-day ripping VR to pieces over failing to deliver tarted up cast-offs (this is how they would portray them in this context). And in the meantime DfT would be busy trying to negotiate further cascades and exploring options to keep the Pacers on well past 31/12/19. It would have been a complete mess. For once, the DfT took the sensible route and insisted that Northern receive new builds, not refurbished, re-tractioned units.



Maybe so, but nonetheless VR had a significant head start on Porterbrook and still look like coming in second, even if the two products are aimed at slightly different markets. I’m sorry but the 230 should at least have made it to passenger testing by now, and now that LM have pulled away is there any TOC left that will still take a punt? By the time they could produce enough for a half-decent sized order, many new builds will be running around in the wild and cascades will be well under way. If I’m going to be honest, VR’s window of opportunity has all but closed. So unless they can find an overseas buyer, then the project is all but over and just waiting for the fat lady to finish her vocal warm ups.

Rather an ironic choice of words, given that one of the routes originally mooted for the units was the Penistone line- which would have had the units calling at Berry Brow which has the TLA of BBW!

 

[najaB]

Imagine if Arriva had been allowed to go for a 230 option, and instead of having firm orders in for builds were still sitting around waiting for a single unit to be available for passenger testing?

I'm reasonably sure that the pace of testing has been largely driven by the interest shown by potential buyers. Had Northern (or any other TOC) said "We'll take x units if you can get them ready by [a realistic date]" then Vivarail would have had multiple units completed and in testing by now. With it being a speculative venture there isn't much point in having multiple exemplars running.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm reasonably sure that the pace of testing has been largely driven by the interest shown by potential buyers. Had Northern (or any other TOC) said "We'll take x units if you can get them ready by [a realistic date]" then Vivarail would have had multiple units completed and in testing by now. With it being a speculative venture there isn't much point in having multiple exemplars running.

I would have thought that given that Northern was the franchise widely mooted as being the major recipient of the 230s, that VR would have pulled out all stops to get a test unit ready before the close of the franchise bid period? As a company vying for their business, it would make more sense to offer potential bidders to opportunity to ask Dft for a rethink of the franchise specifications if a viable, cheaper product was actually going to be available? That's not to say that the DfT would have allowed them into a bid, but it is possible. However VR seemed to sit on the assumption that they would be snapped up by the franchise regardless, and only well into the bidding period did they realise that they were out of the picture at Northern and had to look elsewhere. That assumption was a big mistake, and could prove to be the game changer (failures notwithstanding).

 

[Clip]

Its not we naysayers that he needs to prove the concept to, it is the TOCs. And so far the 230 has failed to do so. Over 2 years in, only one test unit that is current sidelined due to a serious fault has been rolled out. Considering that Porterbrook aim to produce a D319 in less than half the time, its not exactly looking good for VR.

But that's not the project's only problem. Perhaps, just perhaps the 230 isn't what TOCs are looking for. Perhaps TOCs are looking for something longer term, and perhaps more flexible. The assumption is often made that 230s would be an ideal fit for low speed and isolated branches. However TOCs may want their units to be more than just this, perhaps they want units that can operate more flexibly than the 230s.

Just because Shooter is a popular character among some here does not mean he has the right to be 100% sucessful everytime. That's life I'm afraid.

It may surprise you to learn that Porterbrook already have the 319s in their ownership so its easier for them to make a start on any sort of design needed for their project and Vivarail didnt get the first delivery until 2015 and whilst they can start to design from the original drawings its easier for them to have a vehicle in their hands to make the final tweeks - and this is the advantage that Porterbrook - a massive leasing company - has over a small start up, so youre not giving them a level playing field to compare.

No one has ever said that Shooter has the right to be 100% successful everytime - what the more sane of us have said is that he and his company deserves to be given a chance for this project - which is fair wouldnt you say?

However right from the start people have been against this and used alll sorts of spurious reasons why they shouldnt be built all of which have been shot down and in teh case of the fella who lives in West Chesire Oaks outlet village, well he has seemingly had it in for this project from the start with no rational reason as to why but he is.

 

[Clip]

I would have thought that given that Northern was the franchise widely mooted as being the major recipient of the 230s, that VR would have pulled out all stops to get a test unit ready before the close of the franchise bid period? As a company vying for their business, it would make more sense to offer potential bidders to opportunity to ask Dft for a rethink of the franchise specifications if a viable, cheaper product was actually going to be available? That's not to say that the DfT would have allowed them into a bid, but it is possible. However VR seemed to sit on the assumption that they would be snapped up by the franchise regardless, and only well into the bidding period did they realise that they were out of the picture at Northern and had to look elsewhere. That assumption was a big mistake, and could prove to be the game changer (failures notwithstanding).

How quick do you think it is to build a train and how long will it have been since the new Northern franchise was awarded to when the first units from CAF will be in service?

 

[47802]

Im sure he knows who they are already given he has been a railway man for 40 years - how does that match up with your railway experience and knowledge?

I don't think I need 40 years experience as a Railwayman to sense an expensive for what it is, second rate product. In any case it doesn't matter what I think, but I think its fair to say if any do end up on the network I will be avoiding the routes they are on.

 

[najaB]

I would have thought that given that Northern was the franchise widely mooted as being the major recipient of the 230s, that VR would have pulled out all stops to get a test unit ready before the close of the franchise bid period?

If that was a realistic timescale, of course. Maybe they tried and failed, we'll probably never know.

 

[furnessvale]

I wonder how many of the branch lines that have been put forward have station lengths that could take 3 x 3-car units working in multiple?

Very useful for transferring units from depots to remote locations for use on several services.

For example, A very long train of first generation DMUs used to leave Newton Heath in the small hours for Preston where it would be split to serve all the various local services.

 

[colchesterken]

Sadly it has taken too long to get it up and running
I thought it was a good idea to reuse what are sound units
Now that a new DMU is on the cards I think the operators will want new units
If they could have got it on the rails before the new stuff was available it could have been a winner

 

[Domh245]

The most interesting thing that I took away from the BBC midlands piece (assuming that this one is the same one previously referred to) is the development of a "hybrid" battery car - I can't imagine it being used for propulsion particularly, but perhaps to power ancillaries whilst engines are shut down during longer layovers.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Very useful for transferring units from depots to remote locations for use on several services.

For example, A very long train of first generation DMUs used to leave Newton Heath in the small hours for Preston where it would be split to serve all the various local services.

The posting of mine to which you have replied was concerning 3 x 3-car Class 230 sets running in multiple and the platform lengths of stations on branch lines that such Class 230 units of that 3 x 3 car length length would be stopping at in service.

It was naught to do with non-stop passing of same by ECS stock that obviously not be stopping at branch line line stations.

 

[furnessvale]

The posting of mine to which you have replied was concerning 3 x 3-car Class 230 sets running in multiple and the platform lengths of stations on branch lines that such Class 230 units of that 3 x 3 car length length would be stopping at in service.

It was naught to do with non-stop passing of same by ECS stock that obviously not be stopping at branch line line stations.

You seemed to be questioning the need for 3 x 3 multiple working.

I pointed out such a need.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You seemed to be questioning the need for 3 x 3 multiple working.

I pointed out such a need.

Since you are totally and utterly mistaken in making such an assumption, there was no need for you to point out such a need.

 

[yorkie]

This thread is to discuss Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail only. It is not to discuss north vs south rolling stock. We've had numerous threads on that topic before, but if anyone wants to go through it again, click here: North-South rolling stock debate

 

[furnessvale]

Since you are totally and utterly mistaken in making such an assumption, there was no need for you to point out such a need.

Maybe, but at least others are now informed why 3 x 3 multiple could be useful.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Maybe, but at least others are now informed why 3 x 3 multiple could be useful.

The question is how many stations on some of the suggested branch lines could handle trains of such a length without bearing the cost of platform lengthening.

 

[D365]

The question is how many stations on some of the suggested branch lines could handle trains of such a length without bearing the cost of platform lengthening.

I don't believe that there is any intention to run nine-car Class 230 trains in passenger service, hence why that question was not answered.

 

[furnessvale]

The question is how many stations on some of the suggested branch lines could handle trains of such a length without bearing the cost of platform lengthening.

Answer probably zero.

Now will you please accept that coupling units together can have uses other than running mega trains on small branches.

 

[1179_Clee2]

RAIL magazines Richard Clinnick has said on twitter that Vivarails 1st HYBRID D train starts testing next month at Long Marston.
More details in RAIL 819 out Feb 1st

 

[47802]

This thread is to discuss Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail only. It is not to discuss north vs south rolling stock. We've had numerous threads on that topic before, but if anyone wants to go through it again, click here: North-South rolling stock debate

Can we stop all references to Northern as well while we are at it, since the current Arriva franchise plan makes no reference to the use of this train and new trains have been ordered.