Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[philthetube]

Assuming they eventually have a successful trial I wonder if they would be worth making up to be available for spot hire, even if there were no orders?

Once all development costs are taken into account and that the stock is already owned the actual costs involved in preparing other units may not be too high.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

RAIL magazines Richard Clinnick has said on twitter that Vivarails 1st HYBRID D train starts testing next month at Long Marston.
More details in RAIL 819 out Feb 1st

I wonder if such a Vivarail Class 230 Hybrid unit would in itself qualify for final acceptance trials completion...or not?

 

[kieron]

Can we stop all references to Northern as well while we are at it, since the current Arriva franchise plan makes no reference to the use of this train and new trains have been ordered.

Things have moved on since then. Northern are looking at adding diesel engines to a small number of electric trains now. They're not D78s, but maybe they could be if that proves a more viable option.

 

[47802]

Things have moved on since then. Northern are looking at adding diesel engines to a small number of electric trains now. They're not D78s, but maybe they could be if that proves a more viable option.

They are adding Diesel engines to trains they are getting anyway I don't see that's particularly relevant to D trains, the 2 projects having different cost bases and criteria's not to mention the fact a 319 with or without and engine is likely to be a lot more politically acceptable than a 230.

 

[DerekC]

The most interesting thing that I took away from the BBC midlands piece (assuming that this one is the same one previously referred to) is the development of a "hybrid" battery car - I can't imagine it being used for propulsion particularly, but perhaps to power ancillaries whilst engines are shut down during longer layovers.

The idea of the hybrid should be to increase the efficiency of the train by allowing energy regenerated during braking to be stored for use when needed. However do the D78s have traction packages which are capable of regeneration? I guess not. I am trying to think what use they would be. They could be third-rail gap fillers, but then you don't need both the battery and the diesel.

 

[Domh245]

The idea of the hybrid should be to increase the efficiency of the train by allowing energy regenerated during braking to be stored for use when needed. However do the D78s have traction packages which are capable of regeneration? I guess not. I am trying to think what use they would be. They could be third-rail gap fillers, but then you don't need both the battery and the diesel.

The D78s don't - they have camshafts, but the class 230 probably does (the camshaft having been replaced by a new system by Strukton Rail) - indeed Strukton's page on the D train project does include a quote to that effect:

A possible future option is storage of the braking energy in batteries or super capacitors, enabling the reuse of braking energy for the lighting and other on-board equipment.

 

[kieron]

They are adding Diesel engines to trains they are getting anyway I don't see that's particularly relevant to D trains, the 2 projects having different cost bases and criteria's not to mention the fact a 319 with or without and engine is likely to be a lot more politically acceptable than a 230.

It does show that Northern are willing to look beyond the trains in their original plans to deal with the changed circumstances they find themselves in. And even that they're willing to look at strapping diesel engines to old EMUs.

I don't have absolute faith that either project will result in anything useful. If the 319 idea is abandoned for whatever reason, but the 230 works, and Northern still intend to provide some of the extra services they promised, 230s may help with this.

 

[najaB]

I don't have absolute faith that either project will result in anything useful. If the 319 idea is abandoned for whatever reason, but the 230 works, and Northern still intend to provide some of the extra services they promised, 230s may help with this.

Class 230s might help, but they are slower than 319s and can't run on OLE so they are less flexible.

 

[47802]

It does show that Northern are willing to look beyond the trains in their original plans to deal with the changed circumstances they find themselves in. And even that they're willing to look at strapping diesel engines to old EMUs.

I don't have absolute faith that either project will result in anything useful. If the 319 idea is abandoned for whatever reason, but the 230 works, and Northern still intend to provide some of the extra services they promised, 230s may help with this.

I think Porterbrook will ensure the 319 is made to work if they want, they have the required financial power to do whatever is needed, but it might fail if it proves more costly than envisaged and hence not economically viable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can we stop all references to Northern as well while we are at it, since the current Arriva franchise plan makes no reference to the use of this train and new trains have been ordered.

No; agreements can and do change.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[WatcherZero]

Part of the tendering spec was that they were forbidden to use them, if they changed their mind and started using them they would be open to legal challenge over the bid process.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Part of the tendering spec was that they were forbidden to use them, if they changed their mind and started using them they would be open to legal challenge over the bid process.

Changing evidence means changing outcomes. You can't escape that.

 

[47802]

Part of the tendering spec was that they were forbidden to use them, if they changed their mind and started using them they would be open to legal challenge over the bid process.

The Tendering spec only really prevented them being ordered as new trains, but since the new trains are ordered I guess in theory they could be used in addition to the new trains. However despite 'Neil Williams' determination to see these trains used on Northern I think its unlikely, in fact I get the impression that none of the established franchise companies are really interested in using these trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not *determined* to see them used anywhere, though I think there are a few specific branch lines (ones where train length is limited and there is high demand for only a small number of services) for which they would be extremely well-suited.

What I don't like is being told not to discuss things just because someone else happens to disagree with them. Only a moderator has the right to tell me what I may or may not discuss.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can matters be seen to take their course with what is now only 2/3 of an actual unit and see how long it takes Vivarail to produce a replacement unit for the damaged carriage as a spare and whilst any trials continuance at Long Marton takes place. Shall we wait and see if any TOC makes approaches to Vivarail in the forthcoming time period.

Do I ask too much?

 

[47802]

I'm not *determined* to see them used anywhere, though I think there are a few specific branch lines (ones where train length is limited and there is high demand for only a small number of services) for which they would be extremely well-suited.

What I don't like is being told not to discuss things just because someone else happens to disagree with them. Only a moderator has the right to tell me what I may or may not discuss.

I'm not saying that because I disagree with you, but simply Northern have ordered new trains, and the current franchise plan does not include the use of D230's therefore unless that changes at some point in the future I see no reason to discuss it further, why is that difficult to accept? Scotrail also has no plans to use D230's yet there isn't a great deal of discussion about using them on Scotrail, yet possible usage on Northern seems to be raised on a daily basis by some people on here.

 

[47802]

Can matters be seen to take their course with what is now only 2/3 of an actual unit and see how long it takes Vivarail to produce a replacement unit for the damaged carriage as a spare and whilst any trials continuance at Long Marton takes place. Shall we wait and see if any TOC makes approaches to Vivarail in the forthcoming time period.

Do I ask too much?

Seconded

 

[Domh245]

Can matters be seen to take their course with what is now only 2/3 of an actual unit and see how long it takes Vivarail to produce a replacement unit for the damaged carriage as a spare and whilst any trials continuance at Long Marton takes place. Shall we wait and see if any TOC makes approaches to Vivarail in the forthcoming time period.

Do I ask too much?

I have read elsewhere that the damage to the car itself was limited to mostly cosmetic damage. It should be back out again soon once the damage has been fixed (I imagine mostly limited to engine mounts and other things in the vicinity of the fire that weren't part of the engine raft) and a new engine installed. There shouldn't be a need for a whole new car to replace it.

 

[D365]

Can matters be seen to take their course with what is now only 2/3 of an actual unit and see how long it takes Vivarail to produce a replacement unit for the damaged carriage as a spare and whilst any trials continuance at Long Marton takes place. Shall we wait and see if any TOC makes approaches to Vivarail in the forthcoming time period.

Why do you assume that the driving carriage in question is a write-off?

 

[The Planner]

You never know, Go Op may finally get going and run the D train between Taunton and Swindon. Pigs might fly though considering they thought they would be running between Westbury and Moor St by May 14....

 

[Starmill]

I'm sure I've said this before, but I think that these and the ePacer fall into a similar category, that I'm sure they are worth using on a route that can have 'basic' infrastructure to prove its use. Examples include things like Sandbach - Middlewich, Christs Hospital - Southwater or Elgin - Burghead. Otherwise these places are served only by not relatively thin bus services. Scrapping them all probably would be a mistake, but so certainly would using them on routes like the Harrogate line.

 

[tbtc]

simply Northern have ordered new trains, and the current franchise plan does not include the use of D230's therefore unless that changes at some point in the future I see no reason to discuss it further, why is that difficult to accept?

Fair enough - don't discuss it - don't feel obliged to. AIUI the current franchise plan does not include the use of "D319s" either - maybe we shouldn't discuss them too?

But other people acknowledge that Arriva have a bid that promises things like new EMUs for Windermere services (which aren't going to be much use in the near future), a bid that depends on cascaded DMUs becoming available from electrification elsewhere in the UK (e.g. GWML, but the Thames Valley delays mean delay in sending 165/166s to Bristol which means FGW holding on to Sprinters longer...).

So maybe Arriva are considering some sort of "Plan B" (which may or may not involve considering taking on DMUs that weren't in the franchise agreement... could be some "D319s"... could be going cap in hand to ask for increased subsidy for additional 195s in lieu of some 331s)? When the facts change...

Of course, if the Government insist on them running 331s to Windermere of fulfil the franchise agreement (despite the change to electrification commitments) then that'll be interesting!

 

[47802]

Fair enough - don't discuss it - don't feel obliged to. AIUI the current franchise plan does not include the use of "D319s" either - maybe we shouldn't discuss them too?

But other people acknowledge that Arriva have a bid that promises things like new EMUs for Windermere services (which aren't going to be much use in the near future), a bid that depends on cascaded DMUs becoming available from electrification elsewhere in the UK (e.g. GWML, but the Thames Valley delays mean delay in sending 165/166s to Bristol which means FGW holding on to Sprinters longer...).

So maybe Arriva are considering some sort of "Plan B" (which may or may not involve considering taking on DMUs that weren't in the franchise agreement... could be some "D319s"... could be going cap in hand to ask for increased subsidy for additional 195s in lieu of some 331s)? When the facts change...

Of course, if the Government insist on them running 331s to Windermere of fulfil the franchise agreement (despite the change to electrification commitments) then that'll be interesting!

We know that some D319's will be trialled at Northern so its not unreasonable to discuss it.

As per usual people seem to be making mountain out of a mole hill yes Northern's 150's from GWR will be delayed but the plan is they will have to wait for them not go out and get loads of D trains for 9 months.

Windermere: where in Franchise agreement does it say this line has to worked by 331's? it says it will be Northern Connect service and even then its only 4 trains a day so other services on the line could be worked by anything and the Connect services could be worked by a 195's or 158's its hardly a massive rolling stock problem, they may opt to run less Connect services to Barrow if they were planning to run more than the minimum required so they can cover Windermere.

 

[coppercapped]

The D78s don't - they have camshafts, but the class 230 probably does (the camshaft having been replaced by a new system by Strukton Rail) - indeed Strukton's page on the D train project does include a quote to that effect:

In his lecture to the IET in December 2016 Adrian Shooter stated quite clearly that production trains will use ac motors rather than the ex-LT dc machines and that they are getting the parts to build a hybrid trains whereby batteries replace one of the existing diesel power modules. Look at about 45 minutes into the lecture.

 

[Domh245]

In his lecture to the IET in December 2016 Adrian Shooter stated quite clearly that production trains will use ac motors rather than the ex-LT dc machines and that they are getting the parts to build a hybrid trains whereby batteries replace one of the existing diesel power modules. Look at about 45 minutes into the lecture.

That's interesting regarding the motors. I suppose that might be part of the reason that the cost of a production unit has gone up - although as he notes, it means that the motors don't need nearly as much maintenance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not saying that because I disagree with you, but simply Northern have ordered new trains, and the current franchise plan does not include the use of D230's therefore unless that changes at some point in the future I see no reason to discuss it further, why is that difficult to accept?

Because I want to discuss it. And as long as someone else wants to discuss it with me, that isn't any of your business to tell us not to. If nobody wants to discuss it with me, nobody will reply to any posts on it and discussion will cease. The mods deciding it's OT or otherwise inappropriate aside, or it being split into a separate thread aside, that's how a discussion forum works. If you don't want to read about it - don't!

Scotrail also has no plans to use D230's yet there isn't a great deal of discussion about using them on Scotrail, yet possible usage on Northern seems to be raised on a daily basis by some people on here.

ScotRail has far fewer routes that might be suitable for them. Many of their short-distance routes (primarily around Glasgow) are electrified, and they are not really ideal for longer-distance pseudo-rural-InterCity routes. Using ATW as an example, I'd think they would work fine on the Conwy Valley, but most of ScotRail's rural routes aren't like that, they're more like the Cambrian, which is almost InterCity in character.

EMT probably has a few potentially suitable routes, as would Abellio East Anglia if they hadn't just ordered FLIRTs for them. They would be suitable for the Cornish and Thames Valley branches, too.

Lots of options if a reliable train is delivered and there is felt to be a need.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why do you assume that the driving carriage in question is a write-off?

Not at all. All I discussed was the time it would take Vivarail to manufacture a replacement carriage as a spare. If that seems somewhat onerous for Vivarail when you look into what their full-scale production ability would hope to be, then you must draw your own conclusions from that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

it says it will be Northern Connect service and even then its only 4 trains a day so other services on the line could be worked by anything and the Connect services could be worked by a 195's or 158's its hardly a massive rolling stock problem, they may opt to run less Connect services to Barrow if they were planning to run more than the minimum required so they can cover Windermere.

That might displace a Connect unit, but it won't displace a DMU generally. Anyone got any spare 150s? No, thought not.

 

[apk55]

The D78 stock used dynamic braking where the momentum was burnt of in resistances rather than brake pads. They used the same resistances that were used for starting. This means that the motors would have to be higher rated for this duty as dynamic braking increases the average motor current.
This means that that it would be possible to use them in energy storage hybrid.

 

[birchesgreen]

For interest, what would be involved in raising the D-Trains top speed to 85mph (say) - apart from power obviously. I assume the structure would need strengthening?