Great Western Electrification Progress

[NotATrainspott]

Even in the most glorious of IPEMU futures there would still be a compelling case to wire up Bristol Temple Meads and Filton Bank.

 

[Taunton]

... there are quite a few on here who want to hear about what Cantilever is fitted to what stanchion and how. But get fed up when someone comes along and says that "All inner suburban workings are covered by electric stock". Nothing to do with the project in hand.

Well that's those of us who understand what the project is about (improving the running of trains) put in our place. Boy, they come in three times over budget, only partially complete the works despite this, and then we find that the result is that where there used to be a through train from Paddington to Greenford you now need to stand in the open for 15 minutes at West Ealing, which was never mentioned at all until the timetable started.

But we apparently mustn't mention any of that, but more interesting is the fine detail of what bits have been fitted to what. Maybe listing the torque wrench settings of every bolt in the overhead kit (the few bits that actually manage to get completed) is what is really interesting, but some of us just aren't up to speed.

 

[Mikey C]

Well just to change the subject, in response to a Bristol MP about Thingley to TM via Bath, I understand the SoS has said that perhaps it might save the heritage of Bath if the wires did not go up there (!). Interestingly, the local Bath heritage watchdog has reacted totally differently to that which he would have hoped, saying they are annoyed it's not going ahead quicker!

It doesn't seem to go well for Mr Grayling, does it? I have a feeling he had forgotten how much has been invested at Box and Bath and the Avon valley area already.

I imagine the people of Bath would also like to have the noisier and polluting diesels train removed...

 

[HowardGWR]

What is also true is that Bristol has some Labour MPs and a Labour mayor and we are told that Grayling is a tad partisan. We still have nothing to go on other than Hendy's plans, so unless these are officially changed, I only see delay, not cancellation.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Well that's those of us who understand what the project is about (improving the running of trains) put in our place. Boy, they come in three times over budget, only partially complete the works despite this, and then we find that the result is that where there used to be a through train from Paddington to Greenford you now need to stand in the open for 15 minutes at West Ealing, which was never mentioned at all until the timetable started.

But we apparently mustn't mention any of that, but more interesting is the fine detail of what bits have been fitted to what. Maybe listing the torque wrench settings of every bolt in the overhead kit (the few bits that actually manage to get completed) is what is really interesting, but some of us just aren't up to speed.

Great post ...

Do not forget to eulogize about our "new yellow kit" ......

 

[reddragon]

Well that's those of us who understand what the project is about (improving the running of trains) put in our place. Boy, they come in three times over budget, only partially complete the works despite this, and then we find that the result is that where there used to be a through train from Paddington to Greenford you now need to stand in the open for 15 minutes at West Ealing, which was never mentioned at all until the timetable started.

Of course ignoring the fact that the Greenford service was always an Ealing Broadway to Greenford shuttle until recent years . . .

 

[MatthewRead]

Of course ignoring the fact that the Greenford service was always an Ealing Broadway to Greenford shuttle until recent years . . .

It use to be and then it became Greenford-Paddington since the beginning of the year it's now become Greenford-West Ealing!

 

[HowardGWR]

I imagine the people of Bath would also like to have the noisier and polluting diesels train removed...

That's an interesting point. Post electrification, from Thingley, (and assuming TM and Filton Bank are also done by then) the present services at Bath would still have a large diesel element. I think that an order for 5 car bi-mode IEP sets for Southampton / Brighton services is indicated. This sort of upgrade to a genuine inter-city type service is long overdue, but would mean that such a service would no longer be calling at farmyards. Thus a second level of service for stopping trains is indicated. Once we get to levels of service like that, it seems to me that electrification from Bath to Salisbury is indicated. The Weymouth service could just be a shuttle between Westbury and Weymouth, as long as it connected well with the above suggested services, or joined to them.

 

[NotATrainspott]

That's an interesting point. Post electrification, from Thingley, (and assuming TM and Filton Bank are also done by then) the present services at Bath would still have a large diesel element. I think that an order for 5 car bi-mode IEP sets for Southampton / Brighton services is indicated. This sort of upgrade to a genuine inter-city type service is long overdue, but would mean that such a service would no longer be calling at farmyards. Thus a second level of service for stopping trains is indicated. Once we get to levels of service like that, it seems to me that electrification from Bath to Salisbury is indicated. The Weymouth service could just be a shuttle between Westbury and Weymouth, as long as it connected well with the above suggested services, or joined to them.

AT300s are unlikely to be used on routes which have no 125mph mainline element. If you want an InterCity regional bi-mode then Stadler could whip up some halfway house between the Norwich sets and the 3/4 car bi-modes without too much trouble.

 

[HowardGWR]

AT300s are unlikely to be used on routes which have no 125mph mainline element. If you want an InterCity regional bi-mode then Stadler could whip up some halfway house between the Norwich sets and the 3/4 car bi-modes without too much trouble.

Sounds good. I wa thinking of the standard of comfort TBH, rather than speed,although tilt would seem to be useful from Bath to Westbury, at least, for limited stop services (perhaps non-stop) . Would a two tier service justify electrification at least for that stretch, possibly also justifying extending it back east to Bedwyn, as has already been mooted?

 

[coppercapped]

Sounds good. I wa thinking of the standard of comfort TBH, rather than speed,although tilt would seem to be useful from Bath to Westbury, at least, for limited stop services (perhaps non-stop) . Would a two tier service justify electrification at least for that stretch, possibly also justifying extending it back east to Bedwyn, as has already been mooted?

At the current prices for the installation work there is nowhere that justifies electrification.

If costs can be reduced to a level achieved by BR for the East Coast all those years ago, having

• due regard for changes in the standards and regulations which give a measurable improvement in personal safety
• improvements in reliability and ease of maintenance and repair and
• due regard for general price changes

then electrification may be on the cards again.

But until then, it's speculation at best.

 

[Taunton]

I understand the SoS has said that perhaps it might save the heritage of Bath if the wires did not go up there (!). Interestingly, the local Bath heritage watchdog has reacted totally differently to that which he would have hoped, saying they are annoyed it's not going ahead quicker.

I wonder if a prominent Bath resident, Sir Peter Hendy, had anything to do with encouraging the watchdog to this view

 

[HowardGWR]

At the current prices for the installation work there is nowhere that justifies electrification.

If costs can be reduced to a level achieved by BR for the East Coast all those years ago, having

• due regard for changes in the standards and regulations which give a measurable improvement in personal safety
• improvements in reliability and ease of maintenance and repair and
• due regard for general price changes

then electrification may be on the cards again.

But until then, it's speculation at best.

You wonder how any electrification is going ahead anywhere, if so. In fact they are barrelling ahead with it in every country in the world. Strange, what do they know that we don't?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The rest of the world doesn't have a clue, Britain holds all the magic answers. That's why Brexit is going to be such a success

 

[HowardGWR]

The rest of the world doesn't have a clue, Britain holds all the magic answers. That's why Brexit is going to be such a success

Leaving aside those thoughts, (if we may!) I do think that a long term plan for electrification and expansion to get people off road in the Bath area is needed to be addressed. Building a park and ride on the Meadows in Bath is not it.

If traffic O/D (Origin and destination) studies were properly carried out on the A36 and A350, I am sure that the conclusion would be that electrification of Bath to Westbury plus doubling line capacity at strategic points, is a must.

Yes it is useful that Peter Hendy has a pad in Bath.

 

[coppercapped]

You wonder how any electrification is going ahead anywhere, if so. In fact they are barrelling ahead with it in every country in the world. Strange, what do they know that we don't?

Every country in the world? Tut, tut, hyperbole...!

It is clear that you didn't understand that I was referring to the current situation in the UK. That a combination of economic and financial regulators agreeing electrical standards, civil servants gold plating a train specification and, by extension, the power supply characteristics with no thought for the costs of it all has made electrification practically unaffordable.

Other countries, while running trains at 300kph and more, do so with one active pantograph. Designing for the case of 2 pantographs (for two 5 coach Class 80X trains running in multiple) at only 225 kph is a much more difficult and expensive problem to solve.

And it is very unlikely that any train will ever run at 225 kph on the Western - so why the expense?

It will be necessary, for a start, to get the regulations modified to allow the use of separations from the live wire to structures and people to be returned to those which have been found safe over the past 50 years. By doing this it will reduce the need for such extensive infrastructure modifications as are now necessary as a result of the UK's restricted loading gauge. A more sensible performance specification would also not come amiss.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Leaving aside those thoughts, (if we may!) I do think that a long term plan for electrification and expansion to get people off road in the Bath area is needed to be addressed. Building a park and ride on the Meadows in Bath is not it.

If traffic O/D (Origin and destination) studies were properly carried out on the A36 and A350, I am sure that the conclusion would be that electrification of Bath to Westbury plus doubling line capacity at strategic points, is a must.

Yes it is useful that Peter Hendy has a pad in Bath.

Aww but I really wanted to have another EU Referendum argument!

TBH the main constraint on Bath-Westbury is the long signal sections. One section (Limpley Stoke-Bradford) has three stations in it. The nominal headway for successive fast trains is 6 mins, but follow a stopper and it is about double that. Proper three-aspect signalling with a 4-min headway and some more rolling stock for 4tph to Westbury in the peak and 3tph off peak would be an excellent start.

 

[Sean Emmett]

Can anyone confirm the tare weights for
5 car bi mode
9 car bi mode
5 car electric (incl one diesel engine)
9 car electric (ditto)
I've seen 249.3 tonnes quoted on here for a 5 car bi mode but wikipedia quoting 300 tonnes.
Source of info would be much appreciated.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Can anyone confirm the tare weights for

I'm not sure anyone knows for certain, until the trains are accepted in their final state.
Roger Ford was reduced to reading the shipping data labels on cars imported from Japan.
Power/weight/acceleration/speed data is commercially very sensitive.

 

[Sean Emmett]

I'm not sure anyone knows for certain, until the trains are accepted in their final state.
Roger Ford was reduced to reading the shipping data labels on cars imported from Japan.
Power/weight/acceleration/speed data is commercially very sensitive.

Well there was plenty of transparency at the outset!

From Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercity_Express_Programme

DfT Spec: “The maximum weight of a full-length train was 362 tonnes (electric), 385 tonnes (bi-mode) and 392 tonnes (self-powered), with expected weights of around 332, 350 and 368 tonnes respectively or better.[15] The minimum top speed was 125 mph (201 km/h), with a minimum acceleration for all subtypes in both full- and half-length formations of over 0.575 m/s2 (1.29 mph/s) from starting to over 50 km/h (31 mph).”

Agility original bid “The full- and half-length trains were to be approximately 260 m and 130 m long respectively – the 26 m carriages were to be of aluminium construction, with the power cars of steel.[33] The quoted tare masses for full-length trains (412.5 t for the electric version) exceeded the tender's essential requirements (TS196[15]) by up to 50 tonnes (electric version)”.

I appreciate the design has evolved to under floor engines rather than engines in the driving end cars, but its all gone a little hazy regarding weights!

Assuming that 249 tonnes is right for a 5 car bi mode then an IEP on diesel will have a lower power/weight ratio than an HST. I have posted my thoughts on the Class 800 thread under Traction and Rolling stock.

 

[gsnedders]

Other countries, while running trains at 300kph and more, do so with one active pantograph. Designing for the case of 2 pantographs (for two 5 coach Class 80X trains running in multiple) at only 225 kph is a much more difficult and expensive problem to solve.

France at least frequently run trains with two active pantographs (how many TGVs on LGV Sud-Est run as double sets, which have no 25kV connection between them? the majority, I'd think).

 

[Hwnt52]

Electrification masts galore at Marshfield today.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=30611&stc=1&d=1486483572

 

[HowardGWR]

Every country in the world? Tut, tut, hyperbole...!

Yes, apologies, I usually review my postings a little more assiduously. Many modern forward-looking countries are barrelling ahead, except of course some areas of the good old USA, which has a different understanding of 'barrelling' (use oil). In fact, I wonder why they don't go back to coal-fuelled steam. Perhaps 'you know who' - will? Just re-open the coal mines in Kentucky and increase rail employment for loco stokers - a win win!

Seriously, I don't think that the GWML electrification project time and cost over-run can be blamed on just technical 'overdoing it'. The NAO report laid bare the causes and they were in project planning areas, more than anything else, AIUI.

It would be useful though, to compare this GWML project cost per km with the one in eastern France (not a new HSL) to Troyes. I think much could be learnt by looking over the Channel. France is not far away, after all.

 

[coppercapped]

Every country in the world? Tut, tut, hyperbole...!

Yes, apologies, I usually review my postings a little more assiduously. Many modern forward-looking countries are barrelling ahead, except of course some areas of the good old USA, which has a different understanding of 'barrelling' (use oil). In fact, I wonder why they don't go back to coal-fuelled steam. Perhaps 'you know who' - will? Just re-open the coal mines in Kentucky and increase rail employment for loco stokers - a win win!

Seriously, I don't think that the GWML electrification project time and cost over-run can be blamed on just technical 'overdoing it'. The NAO report laid bare the causes and they were in project planning areas, more than anything else, AIUI.

It would be useful though, to compare this GWML project cost per km with the one in eastern France (not a new HSL) to Troyes. I think much could be learnt by looking over the Channel. France is not far away, after all.

Ah! The Norfolk and Western returns!

Re the electrification... I'm not disagreeing with you, it was really my point that the people representing the railway on these standardisations committees were not under any sort of instructions about costs and practicability from the people running the programmes. If indeed there were any people with any sort of overview of all the interactions at the start of the modernisation/electrification programmes. As a result the specifications were gold-plated just to be on the safe side. The SNAFUs were, in my opinion based on the published information, all due to lack of oversight.

 

[HowardGWR]

I am going to open a new GMWL Electrification thread, as i feel guilty about this business of two subjects in one thread. It just seems sensible. Mine will be called 'GWML Project - what went wrong and the future?'. I am hoping that the OP or Mods will alter this one to 'GWML Electrification Progress'. Thank you in hope.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It would be useful though, to compare this GWML project cost per km with the one in eastern France (not a new HSL) to Troyes. I think much could be learnt by looking over the Channel. France is not far away, after all.

This is an interesting insight into French practice.
SNCF are rewiring the 1.5kV DC catenary route on RER line C.
It involves 180 track km, for €277m, which works out at about £1.3m per track km (ie twice the NR RUS estimate for a new route).
They seem to be replacing the masts as well as the catenary, and is a very comprehensive rewiring for higher performance.
They plan to achieve 1.4km of OHLE replacement per overnight shift, using a factory train.
Mind you, NR's GW plans looked similarly spectacular in 2014.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ew/rer-catenary-renewal-contract-awarded.html

Under a €277m deal signed the previous day, the RC2 consortium of TSO Caténaires, Setec Ferroviare and Vinci subsidiaries ETF and Mobility is to replace the 1·5kV DC overhead electrification on Paris RER Line C between Paris and Brétigny, some of which is more than 75 years old.

They should send the "mast removal" unit over here for NR to remove the many unsightly dewired masts on the west side of the Woodhead route, especially around Guide Bridge.
There are some in the undergrowth at Ashton Moss too.

 

[Ploughman]

I am going to open a new GMWL Electrification thread, as i feel guilty about this business of two subjects in one thread. It just seems sensible. Mine will be called 'GWML Project - what went wrong and the future?'. I am hoping that the OP or Mods will alter this one to 'GWML Electrification Progress'. Thank you in hope.

Considering the reaction I got when I queried the majority of posts on this thread being about nothing directly to do with the Electrification Project.
I wish you the best of luck but I will lay odds that it will soon get hijacked to discuss about the 17.15 out of Paddington or similar.

 

[IanXC]

I am going to open a new GMWL Electrification thread, as i feel guilty about this business of two subjects in one thread. It just seems sensible. Mine will be called 'GWML Project - what went wrong and the future?'. I am hoping that the OP or Mods will alter this one to 'GWML Electrification Progress'. Thank you in hope.

We agree with this proposal. Please can all posters ensure they keep both threads on topic.

 

[snowball]

Two press releases dated 6 Feb.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds...-to-find-out-more-about-railway-upgrade-work/

Residents of Bath and Keynsham have been invited to a series of drop-in sessions this week to find out more about upcoming modernisation works which will pave the way for the new GWR Intercity Express Trains arriving later this year, offering more seats and more comfortable journeys for passengers.

Drop-in events for residents to find out more about the works taking place, as well as information about travel between 8th and 23rd April, will take place as follows:

Tuesday 7th February (4.30PM to 7.00PM) – Bath Guildhall (Brunswick Room), Bath City Centre, BA1 5AW

Wednesday 8th February (4.30PM to 7.00PM) – St John’s Church hall, Keynsham, BS31 2BL

Thursday 9th February (4.30PM to 7.00PM) – Oldfield Park Baptist Church, Oldfield Park, Bath, BA2 3JD

Network Rail will be working around the clock to modernise Bath Spa station between Saturday 8th April and Saturday 29th April, widening both platforms and realigning the track. Notification letters will be distributed to residents that may be affected by noise from this work.

Preparatory works will need to take place in and around the station from 10th February. This work can be noisy and will take place mainly at night when passenger trains are not in operation.

A reduced service will run from one platform on weekdays throughout this period, with a full rail replacement service on weekends and bank holidays.

At Keynsham station, Network Rail will be re-routing cables as part of the large signalling project across the route from Bristol to London Paddington. The preparatory works for this will involve the use of a ‘Tube Cube’- effectively a large vacuum cleaner- on Sunday 12th February to safely expose the cables so that they can be re-located.

In preparation for future electrification of the line, we will also be lowering the track below Newton Road and Cross Post bridges west of Bath.

Mark Langman, managing director for Network Rail’s Western route, said: “I’d like to thank residents and passengers in advance for their patience as we undertake these essential works as part of our Railway Upgrade Plan.

“The drop-in sessions that we are hosting provide a great opportunity for residents to learn more about the works taking place and we urge anyone who has any questions or would like more information to come along.”

For more information on rail replacement options please visit www.GWR.com/Bath2017

For more information about these works visit: www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/ourroutes/western/great-western-mainline/bathne-somerset/

Network Rail’s 24 hour helpline is also available on 03457 11 41 41.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds...-electrification-of-the-south-wales-mainline/

Upgrading the railway to prepare for a new fleet of electric trains that will improve journeys for passengers is one step closer to completion today, as plans to replace Splott Road Bridge were announced.

Temporary traffic lights will be in place on Splott Road Bridge in Cardiff from 27 February until autumn 2018 whilst the bridge is completely rebuilt. The essential upgrade work will begin following Beresford Road Bridge reopening ahead of schedule on 17 February.

Splott Road Bridge, which connects Adamsdown to Splott, is currently too low to accommodate the overhead line equipment needed for new electric trains and at 117 years old, it has reached the end of its lifespan. The existing bridge will be demolished and replaced with a new and improved structure, heightened to give clearance for new electric trains and strengthened to withstand modern city centre traffic.

To minimise disruption to residents, the bridge will largely remain open throughout its reconstruction, with a single lane closure and temporary traffic lights in operation on the structure. Pedestrian access will remain in place on the bridge for the bulk of the works. However, to ensure the safety of the general public and our workforce, during periods of demolition work, the bridge will be fully closed with a diversionary route in place.

Network Rail will host a public drop-in event at the Carlisle Bakery on Splott Road, on Thursday, 16 February between 3pm and 6pm. Members of the project team will be on hand to answer any questions about the works and no appointments are necessary.

Karl Gilmore, programme manager for Network Rail Wales said: “Reconstruction of this bridge, as part of our Railway Upgrade Plan, is essential as we prepare the South Wales Mainline for the new fleet of electric trains. Electric trains will result in more seats, faster, more reliable journeys for passengers and an economic boost for South Wales thanks to better connectivity.

“I would like to thank the community in advance for their patience as we carry out this essential upgrade work and encourage them to come along to our drop-in event to find out more about the project and the long-term benefits electrification will bring to residents and passengers in the area.”

Electrification of the mainline to Cardiff is expected by 2019.

For more information, please telephone our 24-Hour National Helpline on 03457 11 41 41 or email us at [email protected]

Notes to editor:

The drop in event will take place at: the Carlisle Bakery on Splott Road, on Thursday, 16 February between 3pm and 6pm.

The carriageway carrying traffic from Splott into Adamsdown will close on 27 February, and its demolition will take place in August 2017. It will then be reconstructed and reopened in early 2018. The remaining side of the bridge will then close, with the second phase of the bridge’s reconstruction completed by autumn 2018.

 

[HowardGWR]

Is there a diagram of what Bath station lines will look like, after these improvements? It always seemed to me to be unfortunate that there would not be a restitution of a middle passing line or layover siding.