Arriva Rail North DOO

[WatcherZero]

Over half of them yes.

 

[HH]

Its more likely they would seek to implement DOO on Northern Connect services...

Speculation often leads to incorrect assumptions.

 

[WatcherZero]

Other routes the infrastructure costs and rolling stock costs would be prohibitive. There isn't enough spare electrical power for the equipment on many older DMU.

 

[HH]

Other routes the infrastructure costs and rolling stock costs would be prohibitive. There isn't enough spare electrical power for the equipment on many older DMU.

In the fullness of time the DfT's cunning plan will be revealed.

 

[Starmill]

There are loads of fairly major Northern Connect stations where staff dispatch isn't currently available.

Hexham
Metrocentre
Hartlepool
Middlesbrough

Garforth
Bradford Interchange
Halifax
Burnley Manchester Road
Blackburn
Chorley
Poulton-le-Fylde
Barrow-in-Furness
Windermere
Ulverston
Arnside

Brough
Meadowhall
Barnsley
Alfreton
Ilkeston

Warrington Central
Manchester Airport

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There are loads of fairly major Northern Connect stations where staff dispatch isn't currently available.

Ilkeston

I am not surprised at the above, as Ilkeston station is not due to open until early April from what is currently hinted.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Over half of them yes.

Which ones? I know that Chester, Warrington Bank Quay, Manchester Victoria and Leeds have dispatchers.

 

[northwichcat]

Chester, Ellesmere Port, Stanlow & Thornton, Ince & Elton, Helsby, Frodsham, Runcorn East, Warrington Bank Quay, Earlestown, Newton-le-Willows, Eccles, Victoria, Rochdale, Smithy Bridge, Littleborough, Todmorden, Hebden Bridge, Mytholmroyd, Sowerby Bridge, Halifax, Bradford Interchange, New Pudsey, Bramley, Leeds.

I imagine the peak time Ellesmere Port services either won't be classed as Northern Connect services or possibly the timetable will show Northern Connect services shaded in a specific colour and the Ellesmere Port services won't be Connect west of Warrington.

From the minimum service level requirements it appears all Leeds to Liverpool services will call at Huyton.

 

[regulation9]

Is AB really a block on DOO ? Chiltern used to run through to Banbury and that was AB (not any more) And I think line between Princes Risborough and Bicester was AB before it was redoubled and DOO use to run there.

There is no absolute prohibition on DOO on Absolute Block lines.

 

[lejog]

Other routes the infrastructure costs and rolling stock costs would be prohibitive. There isn't enough spare electrical power for the equipment on many older DMU.

We know that the DfT were asking in the ITT for 50% of route mileage to be DOO by the franchise end. I can't see the final figure in the franchise agreement being hugely different from that.

Taking the number of units being an approximate back of fag packet measure of route mileage, it seems to me that Northern Connect services will use the 55 Class 195s, around 8-10(?) Class 331s and a similar number of 158s (which presumably can't anyway be used for DOO). This wouldn't come any near a 50% route mileage coverage, so I would think that Northern do plan DOO on several non-Connect routes. Perhaps say the non-Connect 331 services, the 333s and the 319s?

 

[lejog]

Which ones? I know that Chester, Warrington Bank Quay, Manchester Victoria and Leeds have dispatchers.

Thanks (and also to Starmill). I wondered if I was having a senior moment not remembering a dispatcher at any station between Leeds and Victoria on my list.

 

[lejog]

I imagine the peak time Ellesmere Port services either won't be classed as Northern Connect services or possibly the timetable will show Northern Connect services shaded in a specific colour and the Ellesmere Port services won't be Connect west of Warrington.

From the minimum service level requirements it appears all Leeds to Liverpool services will call at Huyton.

That would technically be a franchise breach (of the 13 Chester and 2 Ellesmere Port trains, 14 are to be Northern Connect), but why on earth would Northern go to all that bother?

 

[sandyravage]

Expect a development on this issue Tomorrow

 

[Andrew32]

Expect a development on this issue Tomorrow

Which issue, DOO or the point raised by lejog?

 

[Andrew32]

If you are referring to the first topic then the company couldn't give assurances at this time (yesterday) in regards as to whether there will be a second member of staff on every train and if they would be safety critical.

So yes, there will be a development on this subject soon

 

[Bletchleyite]

There isn't enough spare electrical power for the equipment on many older DMU.

What, DOO equipment? The power drain is minimal. You could power it all day on a couple of PP3 9V batteries. Even if they are literally at the limit, you'd certainly gain more than enough by simply replacing the fluorescent tubes used for interior lighting with LEDs.

I don't think it's likely that any 15x will be converted to DOO, and it's pretty certain no 14x will be - but that doesn't mean there is any particular technical barrier to doing it. If there is, most likely it'll relate to there not being room in the loading gauge for the protruding camera equipment.

 

[LowLevel]

Fitting monitors etc in the cab of anything other than maybe a 150/1 would be rather difficult I imagine.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fitting monitors etc in the cab of anything other than maybe a 150/1 would be rather difficult I imagine.

Not really. A flat-screen display does not take up much space, and could, for example, fold away against the side of the cab wall. Nobody is trying to fit a 50 inch CRT.

There would also be the option of removing and plating over the gangway to give a larger cab.

 

[LowLevel]

Not really. A flat-screen display does not take up much space, and could, for example, fold away against the side of the cab wall. Nobody is trying to fit a 50 inch CRT.

There would also be the option of removing and plating over the gangway to give a larger cab.

Have you spent time in the cab of a class 156 to get the ergonomic issue? They struggled to get a sensible place to put a GSMR radio in let alone a monitor. No one is likely to plate over the corridor connection of 2 car DMUs that regularly work in multi - our connections are in the process of being completely refurbished at the minute. The monitors have to be fitted so as to be unaffected by sunlight and meet the ergonomic requirements of the driver. If anyone does a complete cab rebuild on a 30 year old DMU to achieve it I'll cheerfully eat my hat. The driving position is extremely cramped as it is. Unlike modern units where the driver sits into the cab with the driving position forward and a wall next to them with the door and window slightly behind, on a class 15X you sit right next to the window and in the case of a 158 the window is low down as well.

My opinion, as someone who has spent a huge amount of time on these units, in the cab, is that it's not going to happen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would similarly eat my hat if any 15x *do* get converted. However, my point was, and remains, that it is not impossible physically. You could avoid the gangway issue by coupling in permanent pairs, for instance. I'm not saying they will, it just depends on how high a priority DOO is.

 

[HH]

Class 14x units will not be modified, because they will all be gone early in the franchise. This also applies to class 153 and classes 321/2/3. Given the number of new vehicles being procured, I'm not sure that any units will need to be modified in order to meet the DfT's specific requirements. The timing of the new stock entering service seems to fit the DCO requirements quite nicely.

 

[northwichcat]

Class 14x units will not be modified, because they will all be gone early in the franchise. This also applies to class 153 and classes 321/2/3. Given the number of new vehicles being procured, I'm not sure that any units will need to be modified in order to meet the DfT's specific requirements. The timing of the new stock entering service seems to fit the DCO requirements quite nicely.

The 321s, 322s and 5 of the 319s are supposed to be replaced by new 331s in 2020, which means those 13 EMUs will need the post-2019 modifications and an internal update which meets the minimum standards for non-Connect services, unless Mr Grayling (or whoever takes over the role) grants an exemption for those 13 trains.

 

[northwichcat]

That would technically be a franchise breach (of the 13 Chester and 2 Ellesmere Port trains, 14 are to be Northern Connect), but why on earth would Northern go to all that bother?

If the requirement is to make Chester to Leeds a Northern Connect route and to run 13 services between the two cities and 14 Connect services on the route then surely the 14th Connect service doesn't have to run the full route and the 14th one could be Warrington to Leeds only. Does it say in the franchise agreement Ellesmere Port must be served by at least Northern Connect service a day?

 

[TEW]

The 321s, 322s and 5 of the 319s are supposed to be replaced by new 331s in 2020, which means those 13 EMUs will need the post-2019 modifications and an internal update which meets the minimum standards for non-Connect services, unless Mr Grayling (or whoever takes over the role) grants an exemption for those 13 trains.

The 321s and 322s have already been modified to comply with the 2020 regulations, and there are plenty of 319s which have been modified, and AFAIK the ROSCO is doing them all. The 321s and 322s have had a decent quality refurbishment recently, what else will they need done to meet the minimum standard?

 

[HH]

The 321s, 322s and 5 of the 319s are supposed to be replaced by new 331s in 2020, which means those 13 EMUs will need the post-2019 modifications and an internal update which meets the minimum standards for non-Connect services, unless Mr Grayling (or whoever takes over the role) grants an exemption for those 13 trains.

And? There's clearly several assumptions lurking here, but unless you state them it's unclear what point you are making.

 

[lejog]

If the requirement is to make Chester to Leeds a Northern Connect route and to run 13 services between the two cities and 14 Connect services on the route then surely the 14th Connect service doesn't have to run the full route and the 14th one could be Warrington to Leeds only. Does it say in the franchise agreement Ellesmere Port must be served by at least Northern Connect service a day?

I don't understand why this is so important and its also off-topic, but the Franchise Agreement defines the Northern Connect service as follows:

between Chester or Ellesmere Port and Leeds via Warrington Bank Quay, 14 trains per day in each direction (Monday to Saturday)

So no, the 14th can not be Warrington to Leeds, all 14 are via Warrington.

I would put a small wager on the last evening service from Chester being the 15th non-Connect service as it also likely to be the last (post 23.00) service from Victoria which a)Northern currently seem to reserve their worst stock for and b)looks very likely to continue being an all stations stopper (Moston, Mills Hill etc).

 

[sandyravage]

Strike Ballot announced at ARN over the role of the Guard.

 

[WatcherZero]

What, DOO equipment? The power drain is minimal. You could power it all day on a couple of PP3 9V batteries. Even if they are literally at the limit, you'd certainly gain more than enough by simply replacing the fluorescent tubes used for interior lighting with LEDs.

I don't think it's likely that any 15x will be converted to DOO, and it's pretty certain no 14x will be - but that doesn't mean there is any particular technical barrier to doing it. If there is, most likely it'll relate to there not being room in the loading gauge for the protruding camera equipment.

They struggled in the Cambrian ETCS trial with both having room in the cab for the equipment (which was subsequently unreadable due to sun glare) and getting enough electricity to power it.

 

[northwichcat]

And? There's clearly several assumptions lurking here, but unless you state them it's unclear what point you are making.

You put the 153s and 321/2/3s all in the same category but the 153s and 323s should be gone before the 31st December 2019 deadline but the 321s and 322s (along with 5 of the 319s) will be kept beyond that deadline, for not for long afterwards.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't understand why this is so important and its also off-topic, but the Franchise Agreement defines the Northern Connect service as follows:

So no, the 14th can not be Warrington to Leeds, all 14 are via Warrington.

I would put a small wager on the last evening service from Chester being the 15th non-Connect service as it also likely to be the last (post 23.00) service from Victoria which a)Northern currently seem to reserve their worst stock for and b)looks very likely to continue being an all stations stopper (Moston, Mills Hill etc).

A scenario was proposed that Northern Connect services would be DCO and dispatchers were put at stations served by Northern Connect services.

As far as I can tell Arriva are in a position to say "All Northern Connect services will be DCO except where...." and that exception could include runs to/from Ellesmere. However, if there was no requirement to run any Connect services to Ellesmere Port then they wouldn't even need that exception to be specified.