GTR fares held on 'The Key': Validity on other train companies (e.g. GWR to Reigate)

[Bishopstone]

I have a season ticket from Seaford to Reigate, issued on GTR Key smartcard.

My regular commute is to Gatwick Airport, but today I needed to use the full validity to Reigate, changing at GTW for the Reading GWR service.

I came very close to being thrown off the train at Redhill by the GWR guard, who stated thus:

'We don't have card readers, so how do I know whether you have a ticket on there? That's a Southern product, and it isn't valid on our trains.'

I stated my understanding that season tickets have 'any operator' validity unless specifically restricted/priced. The fact GWR staff aren't provided with card readers isn't my concern.

However, I'm now struggling to find an online source to confirm my point of view. Southern's 'Key' pages don't answer the question definitively, either way.

Am I right, or do I owe the guard an apology?

 

[Sacro]

All tickets between Seaford (Surrey) and Reigate are indeed "ANY PERMITTED".

The fact they don't have card readers is their problem, not yours, the same happened when Oyster came out and some longer distance operators didn't have the readers.

 

[Hadders]

I have a season ticket from Seaford to Reigate, issued on GTR Key smartcard.

Oh dear.

I really think smart cards are best avoided until they offer the same flexibility as paper tickets.

If the tickets Any Permitted then it's Any Permitted. It is worth noting season tickets between Stevenage and London held on the Key aren't valid on VTEC services (according to GTR publicity). How enforceable this is I don't know but naturally the price hasn't been adjusted to account for the poorer service.

 

[Antman]

It is worth noting season tickets between Stevenage and London held on the Key aren't valid on VTEC services (according to GTR publicity). How enforceable this is I don't know

I have been on a VTEC when someone else in the carriage was in dispute with the train manager about that very point. The VTEC manager was dealing with it as if no ticket was held.

However the train arrived at Stevenage before the issue was resolved. I believe the other passenger just got off behind me and have no idea if there was any follow up.

 

[jon0844]

Brfares.com shows smartcard fares as any permitted and no restrictions. How or why would GTR say otherwise? As a favour to Virgin?

I wonder if this is one reason we're not seeing point to point tickets on offer yet, as other TOCs have complained about the problem of not being able to read them, and passengers attempting to (legally) travel on other operator services with any permitted tickets.

Clearly people here aren't going to be able to test TOCs out if you need a season, unless already having one or being extremely dedicated!

 

[MrGrumpy]

May I recommend downloading and installing the 'Smart Ticket Checker' for your phone?

The best one I have been shown and have used is the one by Ecebs (it's available on Android not sure for iPhone). You'll also need to have a phone with NFC reading capability.

The app reads your smartcard ticket and should, in theory, tell you everything you need to know about what is on your card.

 

[Hadders]

Brfares.com shows smartcard fares as any permitted and no restrictions. How or why would GTR say otherwise? As a favour to Virgin?

I wonder if this is one reason we're not seeing point to point tickets on offer yet, as other TOCs have complained about the problem of not being able to read them, and passengers attempting to (legally) travel on other operator services with any permitted tickets.

Clearly people here aren't going to be able to test TOCs out if you need a season, unless already having one or being extremely dedicated!

The VTEC restriction is on GN's website in the section about The Key. It's really poor and the rail industry really needs to get a grip and resolve this sort of issue. Some might say VTEC only provide a handful of services between Kings Cross and Stevenage - it's actually over 30 a day including several key journey opportunities in the evening peak.

This sort of thing is just typical of the rail industry - encourage people to sign up for a 'trendy' smart card promising a hassle free, more convenient experience only to find out that the 'trendy' smart card has fewer rights and less flexibility than the paper ticket it replaced. And the rail industry wants us to trust them to simplify the fares structure....

Just to aid simplification The Key is valid on EMT services between Bedford and London.

 

[jon0844]

Virgin should get readers then, and stop moaning.

There's no way restrictions that aren't shown when buying an ANY PERMITTED ticket (and I could see no specific restriction code) can be hidden away on a website that nobody has any reason to read.

I so wish I could try this out, but I'm not buying a season ticket and then hoping to be checked (I've gone to Stevenage a fair few times and gone with Virgin and never been checked either way, so I guess most checks start and end further out).

 

[Hadders]

The chance of a ticket check on VTEC between Kings Cross and Stevenage is low.

Stagecoach operated EMT accept They Key on their route
Stagecoach operated VTEC do not accepted it (pendant alert 90% Stagecoach operated)

Nothing like joined up thinking...

 

[didcotdean]

The literature provided can be read either way. The maps refer to use 'on our network' - which could be seen to be superfluous if it was valid on all trains. There is also a note that other operators run on part of the routes, and there are interchange double-arrows markings on such stations on the map.

 

[Hadders]

From GTR's website, FAQ's on The Key

http://www.thameslinkrailway.com/contact-us/frequently-asked-questions/the-key#18

Can I use my key season ticket on East Midlands Trains services?

Yes, if your season ticket is valid for the journey being made.

Can I use my key season ticket on Virgin Trains East Coast services?

No. For travel between Stevenage and London, the key is only valid on Great Northern services. Currently Virgin Trains East Coast are not able to accept the key on their services.

 

[Bishopstone]

Thanks for all the responses.

As far as I'm concerned, during the buying process I was purchasing an Any Permitted/Any Operator ticket, priced identically to the paper version. If the vendor wishes to introduce restrictions specific to smartcard tickets, these should flash in bold type with an 'accept' click box, just before the checkout, as a matter of fairness to the consumer.

I'm trying to get an official answer on acceptance, from Customer Services at both TOCs. GWR initially said 'not valid' - per their guard - but have backtracked somewhat to a position of 'nothing to do with us, ask Southern about acceptance'. GTR, true to form, have been completely mute because it sounds a bit complicated.

Summary: it's a grey area between two companies who won't speak to each other, so the best thing to do is accuse the customer of being a crook, and hope that resolves it.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The roll out of smartcards on the National Rail network has been a right mess. It seems that there isn't a single supreme 'guiding light' to oversee such matters, when that's what is needed.

 

[crehld]

Summary: it's a grey area between two companies who won't speak to each other, so the best thing to do is accuse the customer of being a crook, and hope that resolves it.

This really isn't a grey area at all.

The Any Permitted ticket you hold (loaded on your smartcard) allows you to travel on any operator along the permitted route.

Regarding tickets on smartcards, the National Rail Conditions of Travel state:

4.2 Some Tickets are held as an electronic record on a smartcard or electronic device, or may be transmitted to you for you to print out yourself. In such cases you will be advised of (and must comply with) the specific conditions applying to Tickets held in those formats.

The Terms and Conditions for The Key smartcard make no reference whatsoever to tickets loaded onto the smartcard being restricted to specific operators. Nor do those same terms and conditions make any reference to tickets loaded upon the Key being confined to "our" network.

Those terms and conditions do, however, tell us that:

Tickets available on the key are valid as advertised at southernrailway.com/thekey

This website provides a useful map which makes it clear that the Key is valid on services between Reigate and Redhill.

The only possible conclusion to be drawn, therefore, is that the Any Permitted ticket you hold on The Key smartcard is incontrovertibly valid on GWR services between Reigate and Redhill. That GWR, or their on board staff, disagrees is wholly irrelevant.

 

[didcotdean]

This website provides a useful map which makes it clear that the Key is valid on services between Reigate and Redhill.

On trains on our network as said in the key to the map. It is that one statement as I said above that is the potential thing that possibly indicates does not allow the use of trains not 'on our network' (ie GWR ones in this case) but I agree it is hardly a clear statement to those using this product if that is the intention.

 

[cjmillsnun]

On trains on our network as said in the key to the map. It is that one statement as I said above that is the potential thing that possibly indicates does not allow the use of trains not 'on our network' (ie GWR ones in this case) but I agree it is hardly a clear statement to those using this product if that is the intention.

One would argue that an any permitted ticket is an any permitted ticket. By taking that and making it TOC specific isn't exactly fair and as such I agree with Bishopstone that this should be made clear at the time of purchase, so that the choice can be made to buy a paper ticket instead.

 

[didcotdean]

One would argue that an any permitted ticket is an any permitted ticket. By taking that and making it TOC specific isn't exactly fair and as such I agree with Bishopstone that this should be made clear at the time of purchase, so that the choice can be made to buy a paper ticket instead.

That is why GTR relying on such obscurely presented conditions - if they are intending to be that is - would be difficult to sustain. Who though would be in this circumstance responsible for ensuring that GWR or anyone else has equipment suitable for interrogating ticketing instruments they don't issue to know they are valid.

Maybe since this is such a minor overlap there was some agreement that no one remembers ...

 

[Sprinter153]

I'm an ex North Downs guard. We were instructed by a brief that The Key is to be accepted on GWR services between Gatwick Airport and Dorking Deepdene.

There has been a lot of new staff lately, I think you may have run into someone who hasn't had a copy of the brief. The initial retail training is limited at best and has little local focus. Try asking some of the staff who haven't been with a good instructor to do an excess or explain ticket restrictions...

 

[Joe Paxton]

I'm an ex North Downs guard. We were instructed by a brief that The Key is to be accepted on GWR services between Gatwick Airport and Dorking Deepdene.

There has been a lot of new staff lately, I think you may have run into someone who hasn't had a copy of the brief. The initial retail training is limited at best and has little local focus. Try asking some of the staff who haven't been with a good instructor to do an excess or explain ticket restrictions...

It's a real shame that training is poor. Unfortunately it's also only too believable, and is hardly something that's limited to the railway industry.

 

[Deepgreen]

I have a season ticket from Seaford to Reigate, issued on GTR Key smartcard.

My regular commute is to Gatwick Airport, but today I needed to use the full validity to Reigate, changing at GTW for the Reading GWR service.

I came very close to being thrown off the train at Redhill by the GWR guard, who stated thus:

'We don't have card readers, so how do I know whether you have a ticket on there? That's a Southern product, and it isn't valid on our trains.'

I stated my understanding that season tickets have 'any operator' validity unless specifically restricted/priced. The fact GWR staff aren't provided with card readers isn't my concern.

However, I'm now struggling to find an online source to confirm my point of view. Southern's 'Key' pages don't answer the question definitively, either way.

Am I right, or do I owe the guard an apology?

You were lucky to have a guard actually checking tickets (especially at Redhill itself, during a reversal or a termination) - most don't bother.

If ticketing agreements have been reached, it is up to the TOCs involved to accommodate them; by providing readers, instructing guards to take card users at their word, or whatever else is appropriate. Operating and marketing disjointedness!

 

[Barn]

One would have thought that The Key would appear quite frequently between Redhill and Reigate, as Reigate is a Southern station and GWR services are a major part of its service to Redhill.

Please complain to GWR and let them know the precise service on which this occurred so that the employee can be re-trained. Also let GTR know.

 

[Joe Paxton]

^

GWR - Making a complaint

Southern - Contact us

 

[SA_900]

One would have thought that The Key would appear quite frequently between Redhill and Reigate, as Reigate is a Southern station and GWR services are a major part of its service to Redhill.

Please complain to GWR and let them know the precise service on which this occurred so that the employee can be re-trained. Also let GTR know.

Yes, I use it all the time and have never had any problems.

 

[yorkie]

The VTEC restriction is on GN's website in the section about The Key. It's really poor and the rail industry really needs to get a grip and resolve this sort of issue. Some might say VTEC only provide a handful of services between Kings Cross and Stevenage - it's actually over 30 a day including several key journey opportunities in the evening peak.

This sort of thing is just typical of the rail industry...

The fare is valid on VTEC.

As the flow is priced by GTR, they are not permitted to price their own fare restricted by operator, except by obtaining special permission from the DfT. I doubt they have obtained this!

A very important principle is as follows:

"What counts is the message, not the medium."

If they are selling the same fare, but on a different medium, then the terms are no different to the paper fare.

Roger Ford went on to say:

"So, the message is that if you roll up at a station with an Oyster travel card you are entitled to pay the boundary excess. If your friendly local TOC (and I must try this one the team at Welwyn Garden City) wants proof of the validity of the Travelcard it is up to the managers to provide the ticket office staff with readers"

So if VTEC are unable to read these smart cards, that is an internal matter between the two train companies, GTR & VTEC. Such problems are of absolutely no concern to the customer whatsoever.

Also, don't forget, Consumer Law does apply to rail fares (despite certain people previously claiming otherwise!)

I hope that clarifies.

 

[jon0844]

The app posted earlier works well. Wonder if an RPI would believe it though!

[8 huge images removed]

(images of various screens within the app, showing card type, TOC, loaded tickets and balance)

 

[broadgage]

"a penalty fare is a charge for making a mistake, it is not a fine and the collecting of a fare penalty fare does not imply that the law has been broken"

So says the rail industry.
I feel that this should work both ways, and that as the GWR guard made a mistake regarding the validity of a ticket, that a penalty should be payable from GWR to the customer.
A reasonable sum might be about £80 or £100, plus the amount of financial loss, which is probably nil in this case.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The fare is valid on VTEC.
...

I assume you mean GWR!

 

[MikeWh]

I assume you mean GWR!

I think yorkie was refering to the (potentially slightly off-topic) posts about VTEC not accepting The Key between London and Stevenage.

 

[Clip]

"a penalty fare is a charge for making a mistake, it is not a fine and the collecting of a fare penalty fare does not imply that the law has been broken"

So says the rail industry.
I feel that this should work both ways, and that as the GWR guard made a mistake regarding the validity of a ticket, that a penalty should be payable from GWR to the customer.
A reasonable sum might be about £80 or £100, plus the amount of financial loss, which is probably nil in this case.

Quite, however there is no real legislation out there for this to happen.

 

[najaB]

Quite, however there is no real legislation out there for this to happen.

Naturally, one could make a claim through the civil court system.