Issues & potential conflicts regarding CrossCountry's short-notice reservation system

[Qwerty133]

So you're crying that red/green lights discriminate against colour blind passengers.

Then go on to suggest on/off lights. Surely they discriminate against blind passengers.

It's not always easy to come up with practical solutions that work for everyone in society.

But Red/Green is no better for blind passengers than on/off would be.
When there's a way to make things easier for one group of passengers without making things more difficult for any other group of passengers that doesn't cost much to implement it should be done.

 

[Zamracene749]

Displaying a light/message that determines if a seat is reserved, free or reserved for part of the journey is a good idea. Surely it isn't beyond the means of modern tech to then have (perhaps) a ticket reader- or a ticket checker operated system, perhaps using QR codes-that could determine if the seat is now occupied by a flexible ticket holder?

What I mean is-eg- a passenger boards a Plymouth train at York, with an open ticket to Derby. Finds a seat with a green light (ie could be reserved during the journey) or an orange light (Reserved from Bristol or wherever). Sits down, and then registers on the system that the seat is now occupied between York and Derby, either by an at seat code scanner with his/her ticket or by the ticket checker when they come around? The server then logs that seat is now occupied. Too tech for our railways?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

But Red/Green is no better for blind passengers than on/off would be.
When there's a way to make things easier for one group of passengers without making things more difficult for any other group of passengers that doesn't cost much to implement it should be done.

What if the green light had a blueish tinge to it, would that be enough that the green would be different enough from the red for a colour blind person?

 

[najaB]

Because same day you can't.

You certainly can with VTWC (up to four hours before departure), Scotrail and VTEC (where i think it is 3 hours).

 

[Bletchleyite]

You certainly can with VTWC (up to four hours before departure), Scotrail and VTEC (where i think it is 3 hours).

Still no use for walk up travel.

 

[Starmill]

Considerably better than what you thought though. And it guarantees a printed label on your seat. I've been able to make some TransPennine reservations this way on a number of occasions.

As for simply sitting in a non-reservable seat it is very far from clear which these are. Coach D has the stickers, although they're not particularly obvious, but I've had reservations with APOD tickets elsewhere. Where on an HST are these seats? And on a Turbostar the whole area behind the cab at one end of the train should be considered reserved? These trains are already very low on capacity and they think it's a good idea to say that you effectively cannot sit in this part of the train because you don't have a reservation?

 

[Antman]

As for simply sitting in a non-reservable seat it is very far from clear which these are.

And even if you know where they are it may not help you.

Last week sat on a Virgin train announcements telling customers to go to coach X (I forget the specific one) as "there are 170 unreserved seats in that carriage".

There might have been 170 unreserved seats, but each seat had someone sat in it and the aisles full of people standing.

I have no idea what the person doing the announcement thought they were achieving.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

What if the green light had a blueish tinge to it, would that be enough that the green would be different enough from the red for a colour blind person?

I don't know is the simple answer. There are undoubtedly experts who can be called upon.

I benefit from my 'specialised colour vision' but do not understand the reasons behind it. I know that, in some circumstances, red and green are actually quite easy to differentiate. It depends upon the solidness of the colour e.g. solid or pixelated, the background colour something is printed on, the background lighting. Forests and buildings on OS Landranger maps are the same colour, I have to guess by their size and shape. If there is a small rectangular wood I am done for!

It is also impossible to explain to someone who has normal colour vision - I just don't see things like others do. They still have colour, just different. For example, Alton Towers once did a leaflet with a calendar and three colours for low, mid and high season. I could only see two colours, the person I was talking to just couldn't grasp that fact because they were obvious to him. Similarly preserved railways, with their many timetables for different seasons, often upload a version of their printed leaflet which refers to the 'x colour' timetable. Often indistinguishable.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I genuinely don't understand this complaint, and I probably never will.

"This seat may be reserved" is self-explanatory. If you sit in it and you don't have a reservation then, at some point in your journey, you may be asked to leave it. If you don't want to take that risk, don't sit in it. It isn't an invisible reservation, the sign quite clearly tells you the risk of sitting in it without a reservation. You might get lucky, you might not, them's the breaks.

If you want to reserve a seat for yourself you can, of course, send the text message for the Ten Minute Reservation whilst you're actually on the train.

 

[bramling]

I genuinely don't understand this complaint, and I probably never will.

"This seat may be reserved" is self-explanatory. If you sit in it and you don't have a reservation then, at some point in your journey, you may be asked to leave it. If you don't want to take that risk, don't sit in it. It isn't an invisible reservation, the sign quite clearly tells you the risk of sitting in it without a reservation. You might get lucky, you might not, them's the breaks.

If you want to reserve a seat for yourself you can, of course, send the text message for the Ten Minute Reservation whilst you're actually on the train.

Two problems:

1) Does the text message have the ability to reserve the specific seat you're in? That would be okay, but my understanding is this *isn't* the current situation. No good finding a nice seat, then do the reservation to find one is sitting facing the wrong way or against a bulkhead, as can be the case on Voyagers.

2) None of this is helpful if these are the only vacant seats on the train.

 

[yorksrob]

I genuinely don't understand this complaint, and I probably never will.

"This seat may be reserved" is self-explanatory. If you sit in it and you don't have a reservation then, at some point in your journey, you may be asked to leave it. If you don't want to take that risk, don't sit in it. It isn't an invisible reservation, the sign quite clearly tells you the risk of sitting in it without a reservation. You might get lucky, you might not, them's the breaks.

If you want to reserve a seat for yourself you can, of course, send the text message for the Ten Minute Reservation whilst you're actually on the train.

As far as I'm concerned, if you can't arrange a reservation before the train has started its journey, you should make do. I don't see why others should be turfed out of a seat they've sat in whilst it was unreserved.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I've generally found the best way to avoid this issue is to vote with my feet (and backside) and travel with any other TOC but XC.

And will continue to do so until another franchisee improves matters, including more seats overall.

 

[tspaul26]

You certainly can with VTWC (up to four hours before departure), Scotrail and VTEC (where i think it is 3 hours).

I've managed to reserve seats with an Advance First on VTWC (and connecting XC Turbostar) less than three hours before departure.

I am given to understand after a chat with the booking office staff at Crewe a couple of weeks ago that VTWC is currently undertaking various experiments with 'ten minute reservations' and Advance fares a la XC, although there does not appear to be any publicity to that effect. This leads me to believe that it might not have been intended for the general public to be able to buy that particular fare!

 

[Greenback]

I genuinely don't understand this complaint, and I probably never will.

"This seat may be reserved" is self-explanatory. If you sit in it and you don't have a reservation then, at some point in your journey, you may be asked to leave it. If you don't want to take that risk, don't sit in it. It isn't an invisible reservation, the sign quite clearly tells you the risk of sitting in it without a reservation. You might get lucky, you might not, them's the breaks.

If you want to reserve a seat for yourself you can, of course, send the text message for the Ten Minute Reservation whilst you're actually on the train.

My understanbding of the complaint is that it is all about the uncertainty. With traditional reservations, when boarding a passenger is able to look at the seats and see more or less at a glance which seats are unreserved in the entire coach. They can also look and see if a seat is reserved for the particular journey that they are making.

None of this is possible with the electronic reservations signs or the concept of Ten Minute Reservations. I am probably very old fashioned in my viewpoint, but I like the idea that there is a cut off time for reserving seats and I dislike the whole idea of making a reservation for a train that is already running. Just because something is technologically possible doesn't mean it's a good idea to do it, and for me this is a case in point.

 

[boxy321]

I've generally found the best way to avoid this issue is to vote with my feet (and backside) and travel with any other TOC but XC.

And will continue to do so until another franchisee improves matters, including more seats overall.

In over a year of daily commuting I've managed to avoid using XC to/from New St. I've spotted friends trying to board one of these things and dragged them from the scrum to wait for a later train.

The 12 minute, hourly service to Leamington Spa is that bad, I'd rather go to Brum and back out of Moor St than get on a XC.

The sad looks in the eyes of passengers as I look across from a pendolino as it accelerates up the hill from New St while they're all packed in to Reading or wherever always raises a smile.

Having said this had a pleasant journey on a VTWC 221 last night as the 390 had hit something coming from up north.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've generally found the best way to avoid this issue is to vote with my feet (and backside) and travel with any other TOC but XC.

And will continue to do so until another franchisee improves matters, including more seats overall.

The true issue with XC of course is the severe lack of capacity, not TMR in and of itself.

I think TMR has value, and indeed I think once we get to the point that grabbing a reservation (ideally with seat selection) at a TVM on arrival, or on your phone, is dead easy, we could move to a system of reserved and unreserved coaches/marked areas and not have to worry about placing, displays, arguments etc. It could even potentially solve the Euston scrum for VTs. (It could be solved for LMs by just not suppressing the platform number).

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't see why others should be turfed out of a seat they've sat in whilst it was unreserved.

Because it wasn't unreserved, it was potentially reserved. It is no different to sitting in a seat with a reservation label hoping that the occupier never comes.

If the train is quiet when you board, then you should have the foresight to sit somewhere else, there are plenty of seats which don't get taken by the TMR system. And if the train is very busy then it's no different to sitting in any other seat with a reservation: you win some, you lose some.

IMO this is just moaning from people who either a) can't read a sign or b) think it shouldn't apply to them.

Two problems:

1) Does the text message have the ability to reserve the specific seat you're in? That would be okay, but my understanding is this *isn't* the current situation. No good finding a nice seat, then do the reservation to find one is sitting facing the wrong way or against a bulkhead, as can be the case on Voyagers.

2) None of this is helpful if these are the only vacant seats on the train.

You can't reserve the specific seat you're in, but you can reserve a seat. And if the train is so full you're getting turfed out of the seat, then beggars can't be choosers.

I've generally found the best way to avoid this issue is to vote with my feet (and backside) and travel with any other TOC but XC.

And will continue to do so until another franchisee improves matters, including more seats overall.

More seats overall are really what is needed, but unless and until the subsidy required by XC drops that isn't going to happen.

Travelling out of Leeds and York fairly regularly with work, I'm glad of the TMR system, and choose XC ahead of TPE because it exists.

 

[pdeaves]

As far as I'm concerned, if you can't arrange a reservation before the train has started its journey, you should make do. I don't see why others should be turfed out of a seat they've sat in whilst it was unreserved.

I agree entirely. Would a restaurant move seated customers because someone has just come in and wants that seat? I doubt it. Those that are sat are left until they have finished (unless you are in Fawlty Towers, of course).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree entirely. Would a restaurant move seated customers because someone has just come in and wants that seat? I doubt it. Those that are sat are left until they have finished (unless you are in Fawlty Towers, of course).

I've certainly gone into a busy restaurant "walk-up" and been told that I could take a given table but only for an hour or so, which is about as close as it could really get. (Restaurants, unlike trains, are compulsory reservation when busy).

 

[Senex]

I've certainly gone into a busy restaurant "walk-up" and been told that I could take a given table but only for an hour or so, which is about as close as it could really get. (Restaurants, unlike trains, are compulsory reservation when busy).

Yes, I've had that too, and it seems entirely fair. Both sides know what's happening and agree to it, and you get to have a meal which would not have been possible if they'd said, "Sorry, that table is reserved in an hour's time and so you can't have it now".

The problem with XC is that they haven't got the technology for what they want to do, with the result that turn-up-and-travel passengers are very ill served indeed. It should be possible, via text-message or through the train manager, to reserve a specific free seat that you have found. It should not be necessary to go through the train seat by seat trying to find one that is free for at least a decent portion of the journey you want to make. The present system really does mean that XC is best avoided if possible, particuarly if you want to avoid having to switch seats perhaps three or four times in a journey (which can certainly happen in First).

 

[pdeaves]

The present system really does mean that XC is best avoided if possible

Perhaps, just perhaps, that is the hidden intention, to try and control the number of passengers and reduce crowding? Whether or not the people who choose other operators/modes are the ones that should be discouraged from XC is a separate issue!

 

[broadgage]

What if the green light had a blueish tinge to it, would that be enough that the green would be different enough from the red for a colour blind person?

Yes, that should help in most cases.
In Japan red/green colour blindness is said to be more common than in the west, and for this reason the nominally "green" lights in road traffic signals are in fact borderline blue.

 

[Deafdoggie]

If you could reserve a specific seat on TMR, that would be a big help-essentially reserve the seat you are in. It also needs to work when you are not alone, why can i not reserve two seats when travelling with someone else?

Sometime I keep reserving them till I do get the one I am in. Once, we all texted the entire journey for TMR and therefore ensured we could all sit in the seats we got, as we were all going to different places.

Rest assured though, it clearly isn't putting people off, if it were XC would stop doing it if costed them lost revenue.

 

[Greenback]

The restaurant analogy is interesting. If a restaurant worked the same way as XC, then you could start your meal, or get the order in, only to be turfed out because someone has just decided to reserve your table online.

I think I'd just avoid any restaurant where there was a possibility that 'This table may be reserved', just like I try to avoid XC! So I do think that pdeaves has a point that discouraging use may be at least one factor in XC's thinking.

 

[trainophile]

Do you get the situation where people have boarded a packed train, and rather than have to stand they immediately go online (or is it text?) and reserve a seat?

The whole thing sounds rather shambolic to me.

 

[Greybeard33]

Because it wasn't unreserved, it was potentially reserved. It is no different to sitting in a seat with a reservation label hoping that the occupier never comes.

If the train is quiet when you board, then you should have the foresight to sit somewhere else, there are plenty of seats which don't get taken by the TMR system. And if the train is very busy then it's no different to sitting in any other seat with a reservation: you win some, you lose some.

IMO this is just moaning from people who either a) can't read a sign or b) think it shouldn't apply to them.

I once sat in a seat in a XC Voyager that was definitely displaying "Unreserved", not "This seat may be reserved" at Bristol, only to be turfed out at New Street by someone with a TMR (which was now shown on the display).

 

[yorksrob]

Because it wasn't unreserved, it was potentially reserved. It is no different to sitting in a seat with a reservation label hoping that the occupier never comes.

If the train is quiet when you board, then you should have the foresight to sit somewhere else, there are plenty of seats which don't get taken by the TMR system. And if the train is very busy then it's no different to sitting in any other seat with a reservation: you win some, you lose some.

IMO this is just moaning from people who either a) can't read a sign or b) think it shouldn't apply to them.

Utter claptrap. If I see a reservation label, I can see immediately whether its reserved at that time and when it will be reserved in the future. If I sit in that seat and it is reserved, then I choose the risk that the occupant will arrive at some stage in the future. If I sit in a seat that hasn't been reserved, there is no way to know whether someone will reserve it in the future and no way to assess that risk of being unseated. As I said, if you can't decide whether to make a reservation before the train has set off, you should chance it like the rest of us.

The mystery is why the company should come up with such a stupid idea in the first place.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I once sat in a seat in a XC Voyager that was definitely displaying "Unreserved", not "This seat may be reserved" at Bristol, only to be turfed out at New Street by someone with a TMR (which was now shown on the display).

Was this a service that was starting at Bristol? If so it may have just been the reservation system hadn't updated itself for the new journey when you boarded?

 

[Greybeard33]

Was this a service that was starting at Bristol? If so it may have just been the reservation system hadn't updated itself for the new journey when you boarded?

The service had started at Temple Meads and I boarded at Bristol Parkway. Other seats in the same carriage were displaying reservations, so the system was working.

 

[davetheguard]

Utter claptrap. If I see a reservation label, I can see immediately whether its reserved at that time and when it will be reserved in the future. If I sit in that seat and it is reserved, then I choose the risk that the occupant will arrive at some stage in the future. If I sit in a seat that hasn't been reserved, there is no way to know whether someone will reserve it in the future and no way to assess that risk of being unseated. As I said, if you can't decide whether to make a reservation before the train has set off, you should chance it like the rest of us.

The mystery is why the company should come up with such a stupid idea in the first place.

I've always thought that it was the DfT (yes, them again) driving its introduction; rather than XC per se. I'm not quite sure where I got that impression from now - wasn't it a franchise commitment?