Scrap Senior Railcards & Use Bus Passes?

[Envoy]

Why don’t they scrap senior railcards - with their £30 fee - and just let those eligible use their bus passes instead to get a third off rail fares?

 

[Hadders]

How are you going to replace the revenue that the £30 sale of railcards brings in for the TOCs?

 

[AndyPJG]

Senior Railcard available to 60+, but bus pass only at age 65?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also, Senior Railcards do not require UK residence.

 

[Gareth Marston]

How are you going to replace the revenue that the £30 sale of railcards brings in for the TOCs?

c 2% of our turnover here last year were Senior Railcard sales.

However as a % of Over 60's living locally maybe only 10% of them. Would more Pensioners then use train ????

 

[Bookd]

On a recent trip to Belgium I bought a day return from Antwerpen to Gent - the ticket office clerk asked my age and when I told him he sold me a pensioner ticket with no card or other specific identification needed.

 

[Harpers Tate]

....bus pass only at age 65?

In fact it's the state retirement age for a female (regardless of the gender of the applicant) and that is presently calculated on a sliding scale. It's now around 64 and increasing, according to present intentions, until age 67 where it will stop.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why don’t they scrap senior railcards - with their £30 fee - and just let those eligible use their bus passes instead to get a third off rail fares?

The idea is that £30 is a sunk cost so the holder will try and get their money's worth by buying more tickets than they would if they simply got the discount without a sunk cost.

 

[headshot119]

On a recent trip to Belgium I bought a day return from Antwerpen to Gent - the ticket office clerk asked my age and when I told him he sold me a pensioner ticket with no card or other specific identification needed.

Same with the equivalent of a young person ticket (16-25). Sometimes photo ID required (passport / driving license)

 

[al78]

The idea is that £30 is a sunk cost so the holder will try and get their money's worth by buying more tickets than they would if they simply got the discount without a sunk cost.

Ah yes, the sunk cost fallacy.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/173/Sunk-Cost-Fallacy
https://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/03/25/the-sunk-cost-fallacy/

Buying more tickets because you get a discount, rather than because you need to use the train more costs more overall. It is similar to when people buy stuff just because it is in the sales, rather than actually needing it, and their wardrobes end up stacked with clothes that never get worn.

 

[Scotrail84]

Senior Railcard available to 60+, but bus pass only at age 65?

60 in Scotland and depending what council it was issued under determines whether the holder gets a discounted train fare or not.

 

[NickBucks]

Our local parish council refunds the cost of Senior Railcards to those eligible who have been resident in the parish for two years or more. Money comes from a charitable trust set up some years ago following the sale of some land I believe.

 

[Envoy]

A lot of oldies won’t pay the £30 for the Railcard because they are not sure whether they will get their money back. (The same dilemma surely faces many others who are thinking about purchasing a Railcard). The buses seem to be full of oldies during the day - people that the railways could well do with to produce revenue outside of commuting times.

I contend, that by scrapping the £30 fee for the senior railcard and just let them use their bus passes to get a third off rail travel, that revenue would actually rise. This, despite the fact that they would still have to pay to use the trains but can use the buses for free.

It seems to me that Belgium has the right idea.

 

[cuccir]

Buying more tickets because you get a discount, rather than because you need to use the train more costs more overall. It is similar to when people buy stuff just because it is in the sales, rather than actually needing it, and their wardrobes end up stacked with clothes that never get worn.

Without wanting to go too far off-topic, I'm not sure that the sunk-cost fallacy can apply to discretionary leisure spending, which is the context in which most Railcards are used.

There is not a fixed amount of train travel that most people 'need' for leisure. The sunk-cost entices people to use their leisure budget on rail travel rather than something else.

Hypothetical seniors Brenda and Jim are bored on a Tuesday. They don't 'need' to have a day out on the train to York, but because they have Railcards they might chose to do this rather than (say) drive to York, or get a bus to Ripon, or go to their local garden center. The decision making process is not the same as following up an investment with more money because you've already spent some. Rather, it's choosing rail as it's now more affordable in a competitive marketplace.

 

[BestWestern]

A lot of oldies won’t pay the £30 for the Railcard because they are not sure whether they will get their money back. (The same dilemma surely faces many others who are thinking about purchasing a Railcard). The buses seem to be full of oldies during the day - people that the railways could well do with to produce revenue outside of commuting times.

I contend, that by scrapping the £30 fee for the senior railcard and just let them use their bus passes to get a third off rail travel, that revenue would actually rise. This, despite the fact that they would still have to pay to use the trains but can use the buses for free.

It seems to me that Belgium has the right idea.

The buses are full because it's free! It's long been understood that many 'oldies' will happily take themselves off out on the bus because it costs them nothing, and is preferable to sitting indoors. Rail travel, even with a discount, would still come with a significant cost (in the eyes of many OAPs), and is less easy than getting on a bus (i.e. dealing with ticket purchase, finding and boarding the correct service, connections, disruption and so on).

It would be an interesting study to see if indeed it did boost ridership, I would think a pilot scheme in suitable areas would be the best way forwards initially.

 

[Qwerty133]

No. Old people get enough as it is.
However I would like to see a partnership with the 16-25 railcard and the PASS ID scheme that would allow online purchased railcards to be used as ID in bars/clubs.

 

[BestWestern]

No. Old people get enough as it is.
However I would like to see a partnership with the 16-25 railcard and the PASS ID scheme that would allow online purchased railcards to be used as ID in bars/clubs.

There is a big, fundamental problem with that suggestion!

 

[AndyPJG]

60 in Scotland and depending what council it was issued under determines whether the holder gets a discounted train fare or not.

65 here in Surrey!

 

[Gareth Marston]

I suspect those that already go on longer distance journeys regularly by and large already have the card. The ones that visit the grandchildren a couple of times and year ans pop down to see their friend Doris in Eastbourne. Though theirs a lot of journeys now where the card pays for itself and save on one trip.

Its the short and medium distance journey market that will have to replace the fee. Looking at our figures were talking about a c5% increase in footfall assuming local journeys.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I contend, that by scrapping the £30 fee for the senior railcard and just let them use their bus passes to get a third off rail travel, that revenue would actually rise.

If you have a Tesco Clubcard with enough points, you can get a Senior Railcard for "nothing", £ 15 worth of vouchers to be precise.

 

[Qwerty133]

There is a big, fundamental problem with that suggestion!

I'm guessing you mean the difference in age requirements.
But really printing the date of birth of the holder and a hologram shouldn't be too difficult.

 

[pitdiver]

I live in Central Beds, apart from free bus travel as per the ENCTS rules I could if I wished get reduced rate rail travel as per the following

A bus pass issued by Central Bedfordshire Council also allows you to rail travel for half the normal adult fare on:

Thameslink and Great Northern trains between Sandy, Biggleswade and Arlesey and any station as far as Hadley Wood, Crews Hill and Royston
Thameslink and Great Northern trains between Bedford and Elstree & Borehamwood and stations in between
East Midland trains between Bedford and Luton Airport Parkway
London Midland trains between Bedford and Bletchley
Discounts are valid from 10am on Mondays to Fridays and all day Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays. You may purchase discounted tickets from any staffed ticket office (or from ticket vending machines by purchasing a child ticket).

They are not available online. You must carry your valid concessionary travel pass with you throughout the journey and must show it on demand.

I don't use this facility personally as I have Priv Travel facilities, but I expect it is used by some.

 

[Starmill]

In Greater Manchester, if you're a resident of one of the 10 local authority areas you get free bus, rail and tram travel after 0930 when you qualify for your ENCTS pass. This is in spite of the fares increasing by as much as 35% in the past year, and even more than that since 2014 between 1600 and 1830, but you still get free travel in the evening peak. This must be one of the most generous schemes outside London.

 

[BestWestern]

I'm guessing you mean the difference in age requirements.
But really printing the date of birth of the holder and a hologram shouldn't be too difficult.

I do! But that is a workable solution!

 

[Andrewlong]

No. Old people get enough as it is.
However I would like to see a partnership with the 16-25 railcard and the PASS ID scheme that would allow online purchased railcards to be used as ID in bars/clubs.

Young people get enough as it is especially if they live at home and are funded by the bank of mum and dad. Off topic a bit - I would like to see regional rover reintroduced where I could travel anywhere in say old NSE area for the day and get discount on top for having a railcard.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Young people get enough as it is especially if they live at home and are funded by the bank of mum and dad. Off topic a bit - I would like to see regional rover reintroduced where I could travel anywhere in say old NSE area for the day and get discount on top for having a railcard.

I'm almost 28 and still live with parents since I'm having difficulty getting on the housing ladder but I don't get anything apart from a roof over my head. Food and other costs I have to fork out myself and that's been the case since I was 24.

I do agree with having regional rovers being introduced which can be purchased anywhere in the country.

 

[zoneking]

Rail travel is free to Londoners age 60 and over.

 

[Starmill]

Young people get enough as it is especially if they live at home

Now that is one controversial statement given the poor job prospects, student debt, huge increases in housing costs, loss of maintenance grants, loss of EMA and the general backdrop of no or very low pay increases (which affects everyone who is working). Meanwhile the elderly have had a triple locked state pension for years and more disposable income on average than they have had for generations.

Living with your parents (specifically because you are too poor to move out) into your late 20s is inconvenient, still costly and probably bad for your mental health, and not some kind of panacea that young people do for more money.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Senior Railcard scheme is a commercial one invented by BR (and now owned by RDG).
There is no direct government support for it.
Bus passes, on the other hand are subsidised by local councils so it goes on the "rates" and is funded one way or another by government.
The operator gets a negotiated fare with every swipe.
The government (local or central) would not welcome another tranche of subsidy when the current railcard scheme earns a commercial return.

There would be arguments about peak fares (senior railcards normally get the 34% discount, while bus passes are often not valid in the peak although they are in Wales).
Wales has a few rural lines where bus passes are valid (Conwy Valley, Borderlands, Central Wales etc), so local residents (restricted by address) don't need to buy a railcard.

Speaking as a pensioner who travels a lot, I save a fortune annually with the railcard discount.
I also mourn the loss of the VT off-peak railcard concession.
Local bus pass concessions often exclude "foreigners" and it is not really a national scheme.
I can travel free by bus in Cardiff and Aberystwyth, but not in Chester or Liverpool, and certainly not in London.
The scheme owners are not motivated to integrate the bus pass system, and it's considered part of the "devolution" beauty contest.

Some other countries' pensioner rail concessions (age varies):
Belgium: €6.20 off-peak return between any pair of stations, no card needed
Slovakia/Hungary: Free 2nd class travel*
Spain: Tarjeta Dorada is €5 annually giving 40% discount (25% AVE/peak)
Austria/Chechia: similar to GB
Portugal/Norway/Finland: 50% discount, no card needed
France: some regional discounts without a card, or SNCF national scheme (expensive card at €60 and small discounts)
Italy/Germany/Switzerland/NL: discounts are only on season tickets and/or for residents (so useless for visitors)

*EU citizens only, so that's another benefit we will lose on Brexit

 

[Starmill]

The SNCF SENIOR+ railcard is only €60, which isn't unreasonable and in addition to the 25% off Standard TER fares (40% off First) you can get up to 40% off mid-price Advance (Loisir) fares (although only 10% off the cheapest 'Prems' fares). They have added discounts on some international SNCF routes too now so you are getting a lot for €60 a year. It's also worth noting that SNCF offer this to anyone as a Weekend Railcard for €75.