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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

1179_Clee2

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319434 and 319456 are still at Loughborough, I don't think any others have joined them yet.

Any guesses on their future numbers? I'll go for 769034 and 769056...

If the 319 Flex (769 Flex) is as popular as porterbrook say it is. I would go for sub classes for the various TOC's trains so
769 001 to 008 for the Northern trains.
Other TOC's could want different seats in different formations ect ect.
 
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najaB

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If the 319 Flex (769 Flex) is as popular as porterbrook say it is. I would go for sub classes for the various TOC's trains...
Only if they are significantly different from an operational/maintenance point of view. Otherwise it's pointless complexity for the sake of complexity.
 

Mordac

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Only if they are significantly different from an operational/maintenance point of view. Otherwise it's pointless complexity for the sake of complexity.

Kind of like having a separate subclass for the 6 c2c 387s? :p
 

Olaf

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I found this an interesting read:

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/rail-features/flex-and-flexibility-1/page/3
- 2017-03-14

In particular, an outline of the conversion work and and initial time-scales:

...
Most of Porterbrook’s work to date has focused on the Class 319 Flex, but the concept could be deployed on other fleets. Isbern says the Marshlink route from Ashford, deep in third-rail territory, is an option - it only needs DC plus diesel power.

“The Flex concept could be deployed on fleets such as Electrostar and displace DMUs for use in other parts of the country,” he says.

Simpson says there is no Flex ready yet, but work has begun. And timescales for the project are impressive.

She explains: “When production is up and running, each ‘319’ will take four to six weeks to convert. The rafts will be built in advance and simply be bolted on to the train during conversion at works, thus minimising downtime.

“The design of the control system is largely developed and an Ethernet backbone will be used to monitor output and balance loading between the two engine rafts. The physical modifications needed are relatively straightforward and are largely limited to the driving vehicles - fitting the new engine/alternator raft, some new control technology and some minor relocation of existing equipment. It is a modular concept and it is cost-effective as a result.”

She admits that while the first train will take longer, as per all usual rebuilds and refurbishments, the timescales will improve dramatically when the production is up and running. Initially eight Class 319s will be converted, and form part of the Northern fleet of 32.

“The first four could enter traffic in December 2017,” Isbern tells RAIL.

The ‘319s’ to be converted have been identified by painted number already. Initially they will all be ‘319/4s’, but any of the four sub-classes could be used. Isbern says it makes sense to use the ‘319/4s’ first as they are the most readily available. All of Northern’s Class 319s in traffic currently are ‘319/3s’, but ‘319/4’ Flex units will be able to couple and work in multiple with any ‘319’ sub-fleet.

...
Isbern adds: “We don’t know yet which exact routes Northern will use the Flex units on. We know they outperform a ‘150’ on a number of different routes and diagrams, and will certainly outperform a Pacer. We are working closely with Northern on approvals for their selected routes.”

Certainly routes in the North West where new OLE is being erected, or where journeys are mostly under the wires, are likely future candidates.

Simpson adds: “The costs benefit model is interesting. Under the wires the pantograph can go up and the engine is switched off. In diesel mode, the engine is running at maximum efficiency through the existing traction equipment and is as fuel-efficient as a new DMU. Overall, you end up with a much more efficient train compared with running diesels under the wires.

“Track access is marginally more than an existing ‘319’, but comparable to a mid-life DMU. It is roughly the same weight as two ‘150s’ and should give a comparable track access charge. The fuel savings of only running diesel engines when you need them, and running them at a maximum efficiency, give a significant total energy cost saving when compared with a pure DMU option.”

Simpson explains that when running as an EMU the top speed for Flex is 100mph. She adds that, being conservative, when running on diesel it’s likely to be around 91mph-92mph. “Really detailed point-to-point analysis shows what it does well, and which routes and journeys will deliver the biggest benefits to operators,” she tells RAIL.

So how far has Porterbrook got?

“We have done all the concept design work, gauging work, and weight analysis, structural modelling, braking, journey time and performance calculations have all been completed,” says Isbern.

“Detailed design is now well under way. We know the suppliers we’ll use, and it is about getting into the details. The materials are ordered - we are really cracking on with it.”

...
 
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Class 170101

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So probably a maximum operating speed of 80 to 85mph then allowing for the 10% overspeed in diesel mode.
 

northwichcat

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"Will out perform a Pacer"

As Northern had already planned to get rid of Pacers, surely a comparison with a 150 would be more useful.
 

dgl

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"Will out perform a Pacer"

As Northern had already planned to get rid of Pacers, surely a comparison with a 150 would be more useful.

But.. ATW has 30 pacers and they NEED replacing soon as they will not be DDA modified (sensibly neither porterbrook or angel want to bother with them anymore) so they might go there and as such comparison with a pacer is sensible, yes comparison with a 150 would be useful but if the timetable is written for a 14x then surely that is the best comparison.
 

Greybeard33

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"Will out perform a Pacer"

As Northern had already planned to get rid of Pacers, surely a comparison with a 150 would be more useful.

Which the article provided immediately before the Pacer comparison you quoted:
Isbern adds: “We don’t know yet which exact routes Northern will use the Flex units on. We know they outperform a ‘150’ on a number of different routes and diagrams...."
And elsewhere in the article:
Simpson wanted Brush to really test the concept before any metal was cut, revealing: “I wanted to test it against the worst route I could imagine.” After speaking with Northern, she chose Manchester Piccadilly-Buxton: “It’s uphill all the way and has 12 stops.”

The ‘319’ Flex train performed admirably in modelling. It was able to complete eight return journeys per day to the current timetable, in effect performing like a four-car Class 15x formation.

Simpson says other routes have been modelled across the country, and names Great Western, Wales and the West Midlands as areas she has investigated.
And:
The range was found to be limited only by the size of the fuel tanks. Says Simpson: “We set ourselves ambitious targets for range akin to a traditional DMU. Our modelling work shows that we can go for two days on a very arduous diagram.”
 

LNW-GW Joint

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You have to take into consideration all this is promotional stuff from a vendor.
Northern and DfT aren't saying anything (but have backed a pilot, seemingly funded by DfT).
We'll know in about 12 months how 769s perform (and also in terms of reliability).
 

D365

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Since it appears that "Class 769" has been confirmed (why the 69 I have no idea...) I believe the title of this discussion should be renamed to something like "Porterbrook Class 769 EDMU conversion".
 

northwichcat

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Since it appears that "Class 769" has been confirmed (why the 69 I have no idea...) I believe the title of this discussion should be renamed to something like "Porterbrook Class 769 EDMU conversion".

I've added 769 in to the thread title. I don't think the references to 319s and Flex trains should be removed from the title, otherwise a number of forum members might think it's a different thread.
 

D365

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I've added 769 in to the thread title. I don't think the references to 319s and Flex trains should be removed from the title, otherwise a number of forum members might think it's a different thread.

Fair enough, I wasn't sure if that would make the title too long. Personally I would have written "Class 769", but either way it works, cheers :P
 

HSTEd

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Adding Cl to the 769 and 319 might be helpful.

For a moment I thought they were going to make 769 new trains from the 319s.
 

D6975

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Since it appears that "Class 769" has been confirmed (why the 69 I have no idea...) I believe the title of this discussion should be renamed to something like "Porterbrook Class 769 EDMU conversion".

I would have thought that 769 is the obvious class number to choose. Add a multiple of 100 to move to the correct series for the type of unit and use that if it’s free. In the case of non-HS bi-modes, the series seems to be 750-799, rather than the full 700-799 range, so any class ending in a number under 50 needs to have another 50 added, so in this case you arrive at 769. Unit side numbers where the obvious choice is already used quite often end in unit no.+50, keeps things tidy.

Shame that 755 has already been allocated if the proposed other bi-mode conversions go ahead :)
 

D365

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So presumably the Class 455 diesel conversions (if they become diesel-only units like the Class 210s) would be renumbered to Class 655? That's if the 6xx range is being used at all...

Glad to hear it's not just '769' for the sake of it though ;)
 

1179_Clee2

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So presumably the Class 455 diesel conversions (if they become diesel-only units like the Class 210s) would be renumbered to Class 655? That's if the 6xx range is being used at all...

Glad to hear it's not just '769' for the sake of it though ;)
But Vivarail's Pure EMU to DEMU conversion is numbered Class 230
Would that mean a 455 EMU to DEMU conversion would be Class 255 if it is not a Bi mode and only runs on diesel engines (no third rail pick up)

OFF topic I know, but posting a reply to a question.
 

D365

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Who knows really. Logically speaking everything since the Thameslink Class 700s (with the exception of the Crossrail Class 345s) should be numbered within the Class 6xx-8xx ranges, and in a successive manner like the Class 80x AT300s so far.
 

swt_passenger

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Who knows really. Logically speaking everything since the Thameslink Class 700s (with the exception of the Crossrail Class 345s) should be numbered within the Class 6xx-8xx ranges, and in a successive manner like the Class 80x AT300s so far.
Having read the newish (2011) group standard a few times, I don't see anything that would have prevented Crossrail using a 7xx number. Equally there was no obligation to use the new classes from a certain date at all, they just provide more choice.

Perhaps we'll see a 6xx DMU though, if anyone ever orders a pure DMU...
 

northwichcat

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Adding Cl to the 769 and 319 might be helpful.

For a moment I thought they were going to make 769 new trains from the 319s.

I've added cl. before 769. There is a limit to the number of characters which can be included in the thread.

I recall a while back a Continental operator ordered 180 trains of the Coradia variety and someone claimed they were ordering class 180s!
 

CosherB

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If you know something, either inform us if able/permitted to do so, or if not keep quiet. Simply posting "No" is rude, confrontational, and doesn't inform the debate. :roll:

Drew x

Standard response from our friend Brian. He may pop up again in a couple of months with some more similar pearls of wisdom.
 

Class455

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Can't see this mentioned anywhere else on this thread but the latest issue of Today's Railways is reporting that the following 319's (in addition to 319456 and 319434) are being converted to Class 769 "FLEX":
319424
319431
319442
319448 (already at Northern)
319450 (already at Northern)
319458
 

507021

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319431 is at Allerton as well, in full Northern livery apparently. Probably short term until it goes back to Loughborough for bi-mode conversion.
 

D365

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Any idea if there will be a dedicated livery for the Class 769 conversions?
 

Geeves

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Do we know if there is going to be a Northern 'Connect' Livery to differentiate Northern's premier services? Perhaps this is what we see them painted into seeing as they will (I think) be running 'Connect' services to Windermere or Barrow?
 
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47802

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Do we know if there is going to be a Northern 'Connect' Livery to differentiate Northern's premier services? Perhaps this is what we see them painted into seeing as they will (I think) be running 'Connect' services to Windermere or Barrow?

They don't meet the spec for Northern Connect, plus not all services to Barrow/Windermere have to be Northern Connect
 

northwichcat

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They don't meet the spec for Northern Connect, plus not all services to Barrow/Windermere have to be Northern Connect

But there's not much point of using bi-modes on the services starting/ending at Preston and I wonder how far they'll be able to travel off the wires between refueling.
 

Greybeard33

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Do we know if there is going to be a Northern 'Connect' Livery to differentiate Northern's premier services? Perhaps this is what we see them painted into seeing as they will (I think) be running 'Connect' services to Windermere or Barrow?

If, as rumoured, the 769s are to be used on the Wigan to Stalybridge and Alderley Edge services, 8 units will not be enough for Manchester Airport to Windermere as well, let alone Barrow. See http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=3007514#post3007514
 

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