Northern timetable plan for May 2018

Greybeard33 · 30 May 2017

Thomas6187 said:
Basic Off-Peak departure times from Manchester Piccadilly:

XX:11 New Mills Newtown, calling at Stockport, Hazel Grove, Middlewood (2 Hourly), Disley and New Mills Newtown

XX:17 Macclesfield, calling at Stockport, Cheadle Hulme, Bramhall, Poynton and Macclesfield. This service starts at Blackpool North

XX:24 Hazel Grove, calling at Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel, Stockport, Davenport, Woodsmoor and Hazel Grove

XX:43 Stoke calling at Stockport, Cheadle Hulme, Bramhall, Poynton, Adlington(Cheshire), Presbury, Macclesfield, Congleton, Kidsgrove and Stoke

XX:46 Buxton, calling at Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel, Stockport, Davenport, Woodsmoor, Hazel Grove, New Mills Newtown, Furness Vale, Whaley Bridge, Chapel-en-le-Firth, Dove Holes (2 hourly) and Buxton

Interesting that the hourly Prestbury and Adlington calls are to remain with the Stoke service rather than move to the new Macclesfield service. So Congleton will not see an improvement in journey time from Manchester. I imagine this is to fit the extra path between the VTWC and XC services.

Likewise the Buxton service retains Davenport and Woodsmoor calls instead of passing them to the new New Mills Newtown service.

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YorkshireBear · 30 May 2017

Why does an Alderley Edge Service go to Wigan North Western? From Bolton?

DMU running under the wires or is the 319 Flex in service by then? And if so i very much doubt it will have the required acceleration characteristics for the WCML stoppers with diesel engines added????

Greybeard33 · 30 May 2017

YorkshireBear said:
Why does an Alderley Edge Service go to Wigan North Western? From Bolton?

DMU running under the wires or is the 319 Flex in service by then? And if so i very much doubt it will have the required acceleration characteristics for the WCML stoppers with diesel engines added????

I suspect (pure guesswork) that the 319flexes will be deployed on the Wigan to Alderley Edge and Stalybridge services. It is about the right number of diagrams and these would have been EMU operated, but for the electrification delays.

The Alderley Edge services have always had DMU timings because of the marginal size of the 323 fleet.

northwichcat · 30 May 2017

Starmill said:
The OP says 'consultation stage'. Which implies that its available to a wide range of staff, but is yet to be made public.

MidnightFlyer said:
Cheers. Did a bit of digging and it sounds like its been sent to stakeholders (Davenport and Mytholmroyd station user groups have publicly given their responses for example).

Yes it'll be a stakeholder's consultation so local groups representing passengers get a say but individual passengers do not get to submit responses.

northwichcat · 30 May 2017

YorkshireBear said:
Why does an Alderley Edge Service go to Wigan North Western? From Bolton?

DMU running under the wires or is the 319 Flex in service by then? And if so i very much doubt it will have the required acceleration characteristics for the WCML stoppers with diesel engines added????

Greybeard33 said:
I suspect (pure guesswork) that the 319flexes will be deployed on the Wigan to Alderley Edge and Stalybridge services. It is about the right number of diagrams and these would have been EMU operated, but for the electrification delays.

The Alderley Edge services have always had DMU timings because of the marginal size of the 323 fleet.

It was previously reported the idea was 319 Flex trains will be used on Alderley Edge to Wigan and Wigan to Stalybridge via Bolton services. There was also a mention that there would be some Southport extensions of the Alderley Edge service at peak times, so that Southport retains a peak time service to Piccadilly. However, I think it was mentioned one diagram could be a 4 car 150 opposed to a 319 Flex.

Alderley Edge is the one service Northern can get away with using a DMU in the event of a 323 shortage, so I imagine class 319 acceleration isn't an issue for that service.

northwichcat · 30 May 2017

Thomas6187 said:
Basic Off-Peak departure times from Manchester Piccadilly:

XX:01 Crewe, calling at Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel, Stockport, Cheadle Hulme, Handforth, Wilmslow, Alderley Edge, Chelford, Goostery, Holmes Chapel, Sandbach and Crewe

XX:24 Hazel Grove, calling at Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel, Stockport, Davenport, Woodsmoor and Hazel Grove

XX:37 Alderley Edge, Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel, Stockport, Cheadle Hulme, Handforth, Wilmslow and Alderley Edge. This service starts at Wigan NW

XX:46 Buxton, calling at Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel, Stockport, Davenport, Woodsmoor, Hazel Grove, New Mills Newtown, Furness Vale, Whaley Bridge, Chapel-en-le-Firth, Dove Holes (2 hourly) and Buxton

I'm surprised the Buxton service is the 4th service to include Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel calls. I would have thought with the extra services they'd try to get an electric train to make those calls.

XX:30 Crewe, calling all stops to the Airport, then Styal, Wilmslow, Alderley Edge, Holmes Chapel, Sandbach and Crewe. This service starts at Liverpool

Is that every service calling at Styal then? It's been proposed the funding for the Wilmslow-Styal-Manchester Airport bus service will be withdrawn next April so if every train will call there I imagine Cheshire East council will dismiss concerns about the lack of regular trains to/from Styal.

northwichcat · 30 May 2017

Bletchleyite said:
This is again ridiculous for a city station. Either serve it properly (2tph), or stop pratting about and close it.

1 train per 2 hours at a city station is a useless joke of a service.

It's even less logical when you consider smaller villages further out from Manchester get a train every hour.

Thomas6187 · 30 May 2017

Greybeard33 said:
. I imagine this is to fit the extra path between the VTWC and XC services.

Thats right, as the new Macclesfield service is booked to arrive only 2 minutes before the XC service at Macclesfield.

jcollins said:
I'm surprised the Buxton service is the 4th service to include Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel calls. I would have thought with the extra services they'd try to get an electric train to make those calls.

Greybeard33 said:
Likewise the Buxton service retains Davenport and Woodsmoor calls instead of passing them to the new New Mills Newtown service.

In the opposite direction the Buxton service calls at only at Stockport after Hazel Grove, with the New Mills Newton service calling all stops. It means that the inbound journey takes 53 Minutes but the outbound takes 60-62 minutes.

jcollins said:
There was also a mention that there would be some Southport extensions of the Alderley Edge service at peak times, so that Southport retains a peak time service to Piccadilly.

Two services from Southport into Manchester the morning peak and two back in the afternoon peak.

lejog · 30 May 2017

Bevan Price said:
Manchester Victoria off-peak departures (Calder Valley line, etc.)

xx:05 (Starts at Southport via Atherton) - Man. Vic. - Rochdale then most stations to Blackburn.
xx:09 (Blackburn/Bolton) - Man Vic. - stations to Rochdale
xx:20 (Chester/Warrington/Earlestown/NewtonLeW) - Man Vic - Rochdale - Todmorden semi-fast to Leeds (stopping at Mytholmroyd and Sowerby Bridge so stopping from Tod to Leeds.)
xx:37 (Southport via Atherton) - Man. Vic - Rochdale then most stations to Leeds (Via Brighouse)
xx:42 (Clitheroe/Blackburn) - Man Vic - stations to Rochdale
xx:57 (Man. Airport) - Man Vic - semi-fast to Leeds

xx:23 Man. Vic - Stalybridge
xx:53 (Wigan NW) - Man. Vic. - Stalybridge

A couple of minor edits. AIUI there also 2tph from Victoria to Kirkby/Wigan via Atherton and 1tph to Preston starting at Victoria (as well as 4 TPE services).

Re the Calder Valley services, very surprising to me is that the York to Blackpool service will call additionally call at Mytholmroyd and Sowerby Bridge, increasing the service at these stations to 3tph. Just as the line speed from Todmorden to Sowerby Bridge is being increased to 90mph, Northern slow down services by introducing extra stops. I assume the Calder Valley to Liverpool when it is introduced in 2019 will be semi fast.

Puzzingly on Sundays, the York-Blackpool is the only service that serves these stations, leaving them without a Manchester service. The Chester service on Sunday is fast from Halifax to Hebden Bridge.

One great point is that the last departure from Leeds (to Blackburn) is 23.49 (now 22.35 stopper to Manchester). Again puzzlingly the last train from Manchester to Leeds is 22.57 (now a stopper at 23:21) and the last trains are semi-fast, the last train to Mytholmroyd is 21.20!

It all seems very odd comparing the timetable with now, more stopping services during the day (with the only extra services running to Rochdale) but many extra services in the evening and on Sundays with fewer stopping services.

anti-pacer · 30 May 2017

Bletchleyite said:
This is again ridiculous for a city station. Either serve it properly (2tph), or stop pratting about and close it.

1 train per 2 hours at a city station is a useless joke of a service.

Totally agree! I couldn't believe it when I read that.

anti-pacer · 30 May 2017

Just out of interest, what is likely to be the stock used on the new Calder Valley services, as the new stock isn't due until 2019 AIUI?

Bletchleyite · 30 May 2017

anti-pacer said:
Totally agree! I couldn't believe it when I read that.

It is, FWIW, the same as it has now. It's very close to Ryder Brow, but if that means it has no value just close one of the two and serve the other one properly.

anti-pacer · 30 May 2017

Bletchleyite said:
It is, FWIW, the same as it has now. It's very close to Ryder Brow, but if that means it has no value just close one of the two and serve the other one properly.

Totally agree again. It seems a waste of services. However, before I assume that, do know what the usage figures are for Belle Vue?

Xenophon PCDGS · 30 May 2017

anti-pacer said:
Totally agree again. It seems a waste of services. However, before I assume that, do know what the usage figures are for Belle Vue?

Round about the 10,000 annual mark.

northwichcat · 30 May 2017

anti-pacer said:
Just out of interest, what is likely to be the stock used on the new Calder Valley services, as the new stock isn't due until 2019 AIUI?

The new trains will arrive in batches from mid 2018 to early 2020.

Southport to Leeds should be getting 170s but they aren't due to arrive until the summer of 2018. Leeds-Harrogate-York will also get 170s so that will release the existing trains (including some 155s) to be used elsewhere.

The only additional trains which will have arrived by May 2018 will be 150s and 319s, so for all the extra/extended diesel services they'll be 150s or another type of DMU Northern already have freed up by an internal cascade. (With the exception of the 2 routes getting 319 Flex trains.) My guess is Calder Valley will continue to be a mixture of various types of DMU until all the 195s are in service.

Personally I'd hope the Chester-Leeds and Manchester Airport-Cumbria services are 158s (or at least 156s) initially as 142s or 150s wouldn't be good for attracting new passengers.

anti-pacer · 30 May 2017

jcollins said:
The new trains will arrive in batches from mid 2018 to early 2020.

Southport to Leeds should be getting 170s but they aren't due to arrive until the summer of 2018. Leeds-Harrogate-York will also get 170s so that will release the existing trains (including some 155s) to be used elsewhere.

The only additional trains which will have arrived by May 2018 will be 150s and 319s, so for all the extra/extended diesel services they'll be 150s or another type of DMU Northern already have freed up by an internal cascade. (With the exception of the 2 routes getting 319 Flex trains.) My guess is Calder Valley will continue to be a mixture of various types of DMU until all the 195s are in service.

Personally I'd hope the Chester-Leeds and Manchester Airport-Cumbria services are 158s (or at least 156s) initially as 142s or 150s wouldn't be good for attracting new passengers.

Thanks for that. Great reply with plenty of info.

Are the 170's destined for any other specifics routes. Also, are any of the new EMU's going to operate east of the hills?

northwichcat · 30 May 2017

anti-pacer said:
Are the 170's destined for any other specifics routes. Also, are any of the new EMU's going to operate east of the hills?

Those are the only two routes Arriva have mentioned using 170s on (that I know of) and they'll only be 16 of them, given Transport Scotland blocked the Abellio proposal for Scotrail to release all their 170s.

Yes. The 321s and 322s are being returned, they'll be replaced by 333s. Then a few 333 diagrams will instead get 3 car 331s which will run doubled up. I don't know if the intention is for them to be doubled up all day or just at the busiest times.

anti-pacer · 30 May 2017

jcollins said:
Those are the only two routes Arriva have mentioned using 170s on (that I know of) and they'll only be 16 of them, given Transport Scotland blocked the Abellio proposal for Scotrail to release all their 170s.

Yes. The 321s and 322s are being returned, they'll be replaced by 333s. Then a few 333 diagrams will instead get 3 car 331s which will run doubled up. I don't know if the intention is for them to be doubled up all day or just at the busiest times.

So I'm guessing here in Wakefield we'll see 333's on the Doncaster service?

lejog · 30 May 2017

anti-pacer said:
Just out of interest, what is likely to be the stock used on the new Calder Valley services, as the new stock isn't due until 2019 AIUI?

At the moment with Leeds to Victoria trains interwork between the 3 services (2 Bradford and 1 Brighouse), with the new timetable this will be only possible at the Leeds end if at all.

In that case it may be that the 158s are moved from the Brighouse services to the Airport/Chester services, with 150s on the Brighouse/Southport services. When sprinters replaced 144s on the Brighouse services a few years ago, Northern managed to find some extra 158s from somewhere, perhaps they can repeat the trick.

I did note that a couple of minutes seem to have been knocked off the Rochdale to Victoria journey time for the Chester and Airport services, which implies 158s as 150s can't take advantage of the new line speeds.

Bevan Price · 30 May 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bevan Price View Post
Manchester Victoria off-peak departures (Calder Valley line, etc.)

xx:05 (Starts at Southport via Atherton) - Man. Vic. - Rochdale then most stations to Blackburn.
xx:09 (Blackburn/Bolton) - Man Vic. - stations to Rochdale
xx:20 (Chester/Warrington/Earlestown/NewtonLeW) - Man Vic - Rochdale - Todmorden semi-fast to Leeds (stopping at Mytholmroyd and Sowerby Bridge so stopping from Tod to Leeds.)
xx:37 (Southport via Atherton) - Man. Vic - Rochdale then most stations to Leeds (Via Brighouse)
xx:42 (Clitheroe/Blackburn) - Man Vic - stations to Rochdale
xx:57 (Man. Airport) - Man Vic - semi-fast to Leeds

xx:23 Man. Vic - Stalybridge
xx:53 (Wigan NW) - Man. Vic. - Stalybridge

lejog said:
A couple of minor edits. AIUI there also 2tph from Victoria to Kirkby/Wigan via Atherton and 1tph to Preston starting at Victoria (as well as 4 TPE services).

.

Thanks for the edits - the files I was sent omit most of the "Yorkshire" stations.

Greybeard33 · 30 May 2017

Philip said:
Hazel Grove will have three trains per hour into Manchester. I'm a bit surprised that neither of the Chester line services or any of the diesel Buxton line services are being run as through services to combine with the CLC Liverpool line stopping services.

It seems Hazel Grove, with only 3tph, is one of the few stations that will get a worse service than promised in the franchise agreement (along with poor Stockport, which will consequently have to make do with only 9 Northern trains per hour rather than the promised 10). I presume it proved "a bridge too far" to fit four additional services into the Piccadilly to Edgeley timetable, and the second Hazel Grove service "drew the short straw" as benefiting fewer people than the Greenbank, Macclesfield or New Mills Newtown services.

I guess the Hazel Grove OLE will at last get regular use again, although a 4-car 319 is likely to be capacity overkill for the Piccadilly to Hazel Grove shuttle off peak.

By my count Piccadilly Platforms 13/14 will have to cope with 13tphpd (7 Northern, 3 TPE, 1 EMT, 1 ATW, 1 freight). Do you really think they could handle the 2tph CLC stoppers as well?

jcollins said:
It was previously reported the idea was 319 Flex trains will be used on Alderley Edge to Wigan and Wigan to Stalybridge via Bolton services. There was also a mention that there would be some Southport extensions of the Alderley Edge service at peak times, so that Southport retains a peak time service to Piccadilly. However, I think it was mentioned one diagram could be a 4 car 150 opposed to a 319 Flex.

Yes, I doubt that the 8-strong Flex fleet would be enough to work both of the peak Southport to Alderley Edge diagrams in addition to the Wigan to Stalybridge ones.

northwichcat · 30 May 2017

Maybe adding in the extra Hazel Grove requires slow accelerating Pacers to be kept clear of Stockport?

nr758123 · 30 May 2017

Any information on the extra peak hour trains on Mondays to Fridays which Northern are supposed to be providing between Manchester and Huddersfield, and whether they will be providing any peak hour extras on Saturdays (currently 2 in each direction, but will there still be any extras in the new timetable from 2018?).
And does anyone have any similar detail on the proposed TransPennine timetable picking up the main daytime service at stations between Manchester and Huddersfield?

Bevan Price · 30 May 2017

Cumbrian Coast services.

There are new sunday services covering the full line between Carlisle & Barrow - approximately hourly for part of the day. Not sure if this will be "all-year" or "summer only". There are also more weekday services, but I cannot find any running further south than Lancaster. The stopping pattern is too complex to list here, but more trains omit some of the request stops, and a few run non-stop between Millom & Askam.

Carlisle departures (weekdays)
To Barrow: 05:42, 06:17, 08:16, 08:51, 11:07, 11:58, 14:11, 16:04, 17:05, 18:14, 19:09,
To Lancaster: 07:15, 10:16, 13:07, 15:10,
To Whitehaven: 14:47, 20:49, 21:56,
To Workington: 17:40

plus Millom - Barrow 06:12, 20:19, 22:00.
Maryport - Barrow 05:53
Sellafield - Barrow 16:06

Barrow departures to Carlisle
(* - Originates at Lancaster)
05:46, 06:52, 07:54, 09:12, 10:22, 11:18*, 12:05, 13:17, 14:19*, 14:54, 15:18, 16:19, 17:17*, 18:28,
To Sellafield 14:54
To Workington 17:51, 19:06,
To Millom: 21:12, 22:11

WatcherZero · 30 May 2017

People will be disappointed the alderley edge/airport service goes to NW rather than Southport as was the agreed compromise between MP's and Northern before the flexes were ordered, Southport line presumably beyond their range and use of flex reflecting fewer/later diesel cascades to Northern.

Greybeard33 · 30 May 2017

jcollins said:
Maybe adding in the extra Hazel Grove requires slow accelerating Pacers to be kept clear of Stockport?

142s are not cleared for the Buxton branch, so will only be likely to visit Stockport working the Greenbank and Chester services. I gather these are both to be non-stop between Piccadilly and Stockport, making acceleration less important. In any case, is there much difference between the timing loads for a 75mph Pacer and a 75mph Sprinter? Northern routinely puts 142s on diagrams that are pathed as Sprinters.

northwichcat · 31 May 2017

Greybeard33 said:
142s are not cleared for the Buxton branch, so will only be likely to visit Stockport working the Greenbank and Chester services. I gather these are both to be non-stop between Piccadilly and Stockport, making acceleration less important. In any case, is there much difference between the timing loads for a 75mph Pacer and a 75mph Sprinter? Northern routinely puts 142s on diagrams that are pathed as Sprinters.

From my experience 150s do a much better job of keeping to timings than 142s.

northwichcat · 31 May 2017

WatcherZero said:
People will be disappointed the alderley edge/airport service goes to NW rather than Southport as was the agreed compromise between MP's and Northern before the flexes were ordered, Southport line presumably beyond their range and use of flex reflecting fewer/later diesel cascades to Northern.

I thought the idea was a peak time only service to Southport until Stalybridge is wired and regular Southport services is an option for Dec 2019 not a formally approved proposal.

Northern are due to return 5 x 319s when the last batch of 331s arrive (in 2020) so if those 5 are retained then they could be additional or 150 replacements.

Thomas6187 · 31 May 2017

nr758123 said:
Any information on the extra peak hour trains on Mondays to Fridays which Northern are supposed to be providing between Manchester and Huddersfield, and whether they will be providing any peak hour extras on Saturdays (currently 2 in each direction, but will there still be any extras in the new timetable from 2018?).
And does anyone have any similar detail on the proposed TransPennine timetable picking up the main daytime service at stations between Manchester and Huddersfield?

Northern operated service to Huddersfield:

05:56 Manchester Piccadilly-Huddersfield, calling at Guide Bridge, Stalybridge, Mossley, Greenfield, Marsden, Slaithwaite and Huddersfield

07:00 Manchester Piccadilly-Huddersfield, calling at Guide Bridge, Stalybridge, Marsden, Slaithwaite and Huddersfield

08:04 Manchester Piccadilly-Stalybridge, calling at Guide Bridge and Stalybridge

16:02 Manchester Piccadilly-Huddersfield, calling at Guide Bridge, Stalybridge, Mossley, Greenfield and Huddersfield

17:02 Manchester Piccadilly-Huddersfield, calling at Guide Bridge, Stalybridge, Mossley, Greenfield and Huddersfield

18:01 Manchester Piccadilly-Huddersfield, calling at Ardwick, Guide Bridge, Stalybridge, Mossley, Greenfield and Huddersfield

Huddersfield-Piccadilly

06:00 Huddersfield-Manchester Piccadilly calling at Slaithwaite, Marsden, Greenfield, Mossley, Stalybridge, Guide Bridge and Manchester Piccadilly (06:53)

07:13 Huddersfield-Manchester Piccadilly calling at Greenfield, Mossley, Stalybridge, Guide Bridge and Manchester Piccadilly (07:54)

08:13 Huddersfield-Manchester Piccadilly calling at Greenfield, Mossley, Stalybridge, Guide Bridge and Manchester Piccadilly (08:54)

18:13 Huddersfield-Manchester Piccadilly calling at Greenfield, Mossley, Stalybridge, Guide Bridge and Manchester Piccadilly

19:13 Huddersfield-Manchester Piccadilly calling at Greenfield, Mossley, Stalybridge, Guide Bridge and Manchester Piccadilly

I think that there isn't any extra Saturday from Northern, and TPE haven't released a proposed TT yet

lejog · 31 May 2017

WatcherZero said:
People will be disappointed the alderley edge/airport service goes to NW rather than Southport as was the agreed compromise between MP's and Northern before the flexes were ordered, Southport line presumably beyond their range and use of flex reflecting fewer/later diesel cascades to Northern.

Where is this agreement documented/reported? It isn't within Northern's powers to make any such agreement, its very much up to the DfT agreeing a contract change (unlikely since IIRC the dropping of the Southport service was in the ITT).

Northern timetable plan for May 2018

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