Huge fire in Grenfell Tower - West London

[AlterEgo]

You have no idea if that is true, wait for the professionals to decide.

It's being widely reported by the press as the likely cause, following an eyewitness report from the man who owned the fridge. So it certainly is "apparently" the cause, if not definitely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the longer term surely all these tower blocks from the sixties and seventies have to go?

Why? In their original form they are perfectly safe (well, near enough as safe as a house), fires are completely contained within the originating flat.

This was caused by something bolted onto the outside. And for that matter (Google exploding fridges) modern refrigerants being rather more flammable than CFCs, though I suppose it could have started in any appliance.

 

[Antman]

Why? In their original form they are perfectly safe (well, near enough as safe as a house), fires are completely contained within the originating flat.

This was caused by something bolted onto the outside. And for that matter (Google exploding fridges) modern refrigerants being rather more flammable than CFCs, though I suppose it could have started in any appliance.

I realise Grenfell Tower was exceptional but the whole design of these old tower blocks leaves much to be desired, modern versions are totally different.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I realise Grenfell Tower was exceptional but the whole design of these old tower blocks leaves much to be desired, modern versions are totally different.

But that's true of a large amount of housing generally. Provided the things are still structurally sound, given the housing shortage it does not seem sensible to get rid.

What does seem sensible, though, is not covering the outside with flammable polystyrene, completely destroying the "closed fire cell" concept which is the whole basis of their safety.

 

[najaB]

This was caused by something bolted onto the outside.

On a point of order: At this point the cladding is only the leading suspect in the spread of the fire. Let's not prejudge the investigation.

 

[jon0844]

I thought Mr Khan was treated appallingly, opinions vary on the actions of Mr Corbyn and Mrs May but I don't think now is the time for scoring political points.

In the longer term surely all these tower blocks from the sixties and seventies have to go?

Political point scoring has been going on constantly and it's very disappointing, but not surprising.

 

[Jonny]

Political point scoring has been going on constantly and it's very disappointing, but not surprising.

No surprise at all, Labour were desperate and even with that as a motivator combined with a good day they still couldn't win.

 

[Dave1987]

May definitely showing the reason some have nicknamed her the 'submarine'.

 

[PHILIPE]

May definitely showing the reason some have nicknamed her the 'submarine'.

Now criticised on BBC News for not speaking to any residents or survivors when she visited the Grenfell Tower Block yesterday.

 

[Dave1987]

Now criticised on BBC News for not speaking to any residents or survivors when she visited the Grenfell Tower Block yesterday.

Yup! Pretty shameful she didn't. She was apparently directly asked to do so and refused. She ducks and dives away from anything controversial. Remember she is a "strong and stable leader"

 

[cjp]

The individual leaseholders aren't the problem. The freeholder and his agents are. it is in the leaseholders interest to get the bets deal on the management. After all a tatty block will be harder to rent out.

There is a process for Leasehold Enfranchisement or for booting out sub standard managing agents via the Leasehold Advisory Service or the Right to Manage process. Often all it needs is someone ( and of course it is easier in a small block) to take a lead.

This generalisation is so not true.

Although not a high rise I told the residents of the need to do work and why and, months later, the residents association who we act for have still to make a decision on spending the money and instead want to tidy up the gardens.
A circular went to all residents about not keeping things in the common parts contrary to their leases and explained why. Extra signage was put up but some still do their own thing despite the articles being removed each time I am down (at least once a month).

The residents association does not want to spend money on a ground floor pram/cycle store as most of the people seem able to cope and with so many flat being rented out perhaps this is understandable but as managing agents we have told them and been ignored - the reverse of Grenfell Tower when resident moaned to the council about what was done or not done.

Good property management is neither simple nor easy and comes at a price.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Yup! Pretty shameful she didn't. She was apparently directly asked to do so and refused. She ducks and dives away from anything controversial. Remember she is a "strong and stable leader"

Even The Queen has been around the rescue centres this morning, talking to the community and survivors.

So much for the security aspect!

She just didn't want to be used as a punching bag. I don't blame her. But not very strong leadership.

 

[cjp]

I rather suspect very little, in reality. Simply far too many properties and nowhere near enough money.

And generally building regulations are not retrospective.

Although if something goes wrong and there is a better practise in place one had better had a good reason for not improving things.

Unlimited pots of gold would be great as residents hate putting their hands in pockets for no visible gain.

The same pots of gold would pay for better enforcement by Building Control who lack both time and resources to be proactive looking for breaches. ( I could have had my house re-roofed without upgrading the insulation sufficiently by the roofing contractor and Building Control would never have known one way or the other except I knew what had to be done and called them in as an extra pair of eyes to look at the job <g>

Cynical or realistic?

 

[DarloRich]

This generalisation is so not true.

Although not a high rise I told the residents of the need to do work and why and, months later, the residents association who we act for have still to make a decision on spending the money and instead want to tidy up the gardens.
A circular went to all residents about not keeping things in the common parts contrary to their leases and explained why. Extra signage was put up but some still do their own thing despite the articles being removed each time I am down (at least once a month).

The residents association does not want to spend money on a ground floor pram/cycle store as most of the people seem able to cope and with so many flat being rented out perhaps this is understandable but as managing agents we have told them and been ignored - the reverse of Grenfell Tower when resident moaned to the council about what was done or not done.

Good property management is neither simple nor easy and comes at a price.

It is fairly simple. Keep the fabric of the property in safe and sensible order and ensure you have a cash reserve for emergencies. While that comes at a price it doesn't come at the price many agents charge for doing very little.

I have dealt with managing agents who will do nothing expect bank your money. They wont fix minor but important issues like failed lights in stair wells and they wont produce accounts to justify their existence. They take vast sums of money (£1000+ p/a) and do sod all. In fairness they did fix the ridge tiles that blew off in a storm. After a month. And then in a cack handed fashion using the cheapest labour possible.

There are good agents out there. You might work for one. Sadly there are many bad agents who use the leaseholders as a cash cow and extract the urine. They are simply in it to make easy money from people who think they have no options. Boot them out and do it yourself or find a decent local agent to help you.

EDIT - oh and don't get me started about the little extras they can squeeze out of you on sale or mortgage or transfer of your flat.

 

[AlterEgo]

She just didn't want to be used as a punching bag. I don't blame her. But not very strong leadership.

Now why would some of the most impoverished people in the country want to punch a Tory PM, I wonder?

This is a national scandal and could even bring down the government, in time.

 

[northwichcat]

Now why would some of the most impoverished people in the country want to punch a Tory PM, I wonder?

This is a national scandal and could even bring down the government, in time.

May is very lucky it didn't happen a month earlier. A cowboy private company owning the flats employing a cowboy private contractor to do work which made the flats more flammable would have done wonders for Corbyn's public ownership policies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Completely with you - leasehold is basically an open invitation to a scam. With what you are saying I am glad I did not buy a flat in the block you were in - I had considered it!

We really need a switch in the UK towards commonhold/condominium ownership of flats, with the sole other option being build to rent on assured shorthold tenancies or similar (or just as a hotel or equivalent). Residential leasehold needs abolishing.

 

[jon0844]

No surprise at all, Labour were desperate and even with that as a motivator combined with a good day they still couldn't win.

I see Lily Allen has come in and said the media is downplaying the death toll, and there are likely 150 victims.

Of course the number of victims is going to be a lot higher, but you can't just guess or announce deaths until confirmed.

I'd ask if she is taking in some of those left without homes, but her house is presumably already full of refugees from Calais that she told us all to welcome in with open arms a year or so ago.

I wonder what 'name' will be next to muscle in?

 

[Dave1987]

May is very lucky it didn't happen a month earlier. A cowboy private company owning the flats employing a cowboy private contractor to do work which made the flats more flammable would have done wonders for Corbyn's public ownership policies.

I'm unsure as to whether Corbyn has sort to take advantage of this or whether this is actually genuine with him. The number of photos of him comforting survivors and relatives is huge. I sincerely hope it's genuine and not done for the cameras. But even if it was done for the cameras at least he did go unlike May.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm unsure as to whether Corbyn has sort to take advantage of this or whether this is actually genuine with him. The number of photos of him comforting survivors and relatives is huge. I sincerely hope it's genuine and not done for the cameras. But even if it was done for the cameras at least he did go unlike May.

I think the very least we can know is that Corbyn does stick up for exactly the sort of people left devatstated by the tragedy. I don't think we can say the same about May.

 

[AlterEgo]

BBC reporting that the death toll is now 30.

 

[najaB]

A cowboy private company owning the flats employing a cowboy private contractor to do work which made the flats more flammable...

It's nice to know that we've already had a full and thorough investigation.

 

[northwichcat]

It's nice to know that we've already had a full and thorough investigation.

I'm sure if either company had done a proper fire safety risk assessment for the work undertaken they would be more than happy to release in to the public domain, given the circumstances.

The news showed the inside of another set of flats refurbished by the same contractor and owned by the same company. They have fire safety notices which refer to using non-existent equipment in the event of a fire.

 

[northwichcat]

It'll be interesting to see whether the block, as originally designed, was to blame or whether it was something that was changed later. The obvious one is the cladding. There have been several fires with this sort of cladding, most famously in Dubai a couple of years ago. Everybody got out of the building in Dubai because it had sprinklers and the internal fire containment worked better.

It isn't necessarily the block that was to blame, it could be a botched refurbishment (and not necessarily the most recent one).

Apparently they didn't pay the £5,000 extra for fire resistant panels

Also claimed the type of paneling used would be illegal in the US.

 

[BestWestern]

How you can become PM like May has, with no people skills is absolutely incredible.

Has she learned nothing from her election failure?

Following the 'Gordon Brown' model.

As for learning, well she doesn't need to really. She knew she'd still be in the seat of power, which indeed she is, that's why she called the election when she did. She must surely also know that in a proper contest, against a viable opposition, she'll be out. So I imagine her strategy is to enjoy her period of unelected dictatorship while it lasts, efforts to stay put in the longer term are largely irrelevant.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Completely with you - leasehold is basically an open invitation to a scam.

As we've seen with leasehold houses.

I'm on a new estate, but in a (rented) detached house. The block of flats opposite is missing several roof tiles. It was missing those roof tiles when I moved into my house 18 months ago. It's a little thing, but if they can't be arsed maintaining the roof, I can't help but wonder what else they don't bother maintaining.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm unsure as to whether Corbyn has sort to take advantage of this or whether this is actually genuine with him.

It's genuine. He's always been like this, he always will be like this. I used to work in Islington and he was always knocking about, under the radar.

As I've said elsewhere, I have many misgivings about him as a PM but his generosity and his genuineness are not some of them.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm sure if either company had done a proper fire safety risk assessment for the work undertaken they would be more than happy to release in to the public domain, given the circumstances.

May's promised a public enquiry. They won't say or do anything.

However I suspect that this fire is as a result of a catalogue of contractors cutting corners on the sly, and probably dating all the way back to when the tower was constructed.

Corruption in local councils was endemic through the 60s and 70s, everyone took their slice of pie, and that's why so many bad buildings were built badly. It wasn't party political, either: John Poulson, the bribing builder responsible for a lot of the dross, bribed Labour and Tories equally. I'm sure he wasn't tyhe only bribing builder, much as he was the only one to be thrown to the wolves.

Certainly up here in Newcastle, just how dangerously badly built some of the buildings were only became apparent when they were finally demolished. T Dan Smith was lucky he didn't have blood on his hands.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Material used in the cladding that covered the Grenfell Tower was the cheaper, more flammable version of the two available options, an investigation of the supply chain has confirmed.

Omnis Exteriors manufactured the aluminium composite material (ACM) used in the cladding, a director, John Cowley, confirmed to the Guardian.

He also said Omnis had been asked to supply Reynobond PE cladding, which is £2 cheaper per square metre than the alternative Reynobond FR, which stands for “fire resistant”.

“We supplied components for a system created by the design and build team on that project,” said Cowley.

Harley Facades confirmed it had installed the panels bought from Omnis in the work it performed on Grenfell Tower.

Omnis sold ACM cladding to Harley Facades, which was responsible for installing it.

Construction firm Rydon Maintenance was the lead contractor on the project but sub-contracted elements of the work to smaller companies, including Harley.

The supply chain was revealed in filings at Companies House that reveal CEP Architectural Facades – which has since been bought by the Worcester-based Omnis – was a supplier to Harley Facades’ sister company, Harley Curtain Wall.

CEP’s name appears on a list of firms that were owed money when Harley Curtain Wall collapsed into administration in 2015.

CEP is owned by Omnis Exteriors, which describes itself as a “leading UK manufacturer and supplier of exterior building products and systems”.

Its website states: “With almost 400 multi-storey projects completed, you know that you are in good hands.”

The website also says Omnis manufactures cladding at a workshop in St Helens and has supplied dozens of building projects around the country.

It reported a profit of £1.2m last year, the same year in which the ACM it supplied was installed on Grenfell Tower.

The company also paid a dividend of £950,000 to its sole shareholder, an investment group specialising in construction companies called Xerxes Equity.

The chairman of Xerxes and its largest shareholder is the corporate grandee Tony Rice, who is a former chief executive of the telecoms multinational Cable & Wireless and is also a trustee of the housing charity Shelter.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-grenfell-tower-identified-as-omnis-exteriors

As an interesting aside, the Chairman of Shelter was CEO at Kensington and Chelsea Council from 2011 to 2013.

 

[ComUtoR]

Gonna take a step back on the cladding issue for the moment. Looking at the building regulations for fire standards. The cladding did conform to the standards and to the higher standard.

I read on an Australian site that there is a question over the regulations where it measures the 'surface spread' but this stuff has a core which looks to be where the problem lies.

A quick youtube and i was watching the material being tested at 700 deg C but the they stated the building was burning at around 1000 deg C

It is getting harder to place any blame directly on the Government and local councils as the cladding met the specs. I think some simple research should have highlighted that they were a concern all over the world.

I am of the mind that this is a product that is designed to meet the specs and criteria for the standards but in reality may actually be a direct cause in numerous fires around the world and their severity.