Huge fire in Grenfell Tower - West London

[Antman]

She made a very good point though. I really doubt that just 17 people died. It's obvious that the real death toll isn't being revealed so that people can't see the full scale of the disaster.

In 2016, Labour proposed an amendment to the housing bill. This amendment proposed that private sector landlords ensure that homes are fit for human habitation.

This move was rejected by 312 votes to 219. All 312 votes came from Tory MPs.

They are culpable in this incident, and so are the Conservative government. And now they must answer the questions.

The death toll isn't being revealed because nobody has a clue what it is, and how could they? This is a block of flats, there isn't a fire register to sign every time people go in or out. The painstaking search is likely to take weeks, some victims might never be identified. What do you want, a wild guess?

 

[takno]

I see JustGiving is now getting stick and the salaries of directors being posted.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.te...-takes-115000-fee-grenfell-tower-donors-give/

Interesting to see the Telegraph which is usually such a bastion of free-market capitalism go into this. My experience of JustGiving is that the service is generally excellent. The fees don't seem particularly insane; the card fees are pretty much in line with what I expect them to be paying their payment provider, and a flat 5% allows them to cover their costs and make a modest profit while still being able to encourage small charities and sponsorship-type pages.

If other sites are charging half as much for the same service then presumably all the various appeals could have set their campaigns up on those competing sites, and if they had I would happily move my contributions with them.

 

[najaB]

If other sites are charging half as much for the same service then presumably all the various appeals could have set their campaigns up on those competing sites, and if they had I would happily move my contributions with them.

Use MyDonate instead. It's run by the BT group and they pay all the running costs - the charity receives 100% of any donations.

 

[takno]

Use MyDonate instead. It's run by the BT group and they pay all the running costs - the charity receives 100% of any donations.

I think I'd prefer to use JustGiving to something that's there to advertise BT tbh, although if they are the competition that does somewhat explain the Telegraph article.

 

[jon0844]

Who gets hauled over the hot coals next?

The people need to keep being fed news now the flames are out. The official investigation and final death toll can't come quick enough to satisfy the thirst.

 

[Harbornite]

17 people have been confirmed to have died. There will be more however the figures won't be released until the bodies are found, so if you could kindly **** off with the conspiracy theories while my friends and colleagues are combing through devastation and literal hell to find them that would be appreciated.

I agree with this. The authorities have been saying that they expect the number of confirmed deaths to rise from 30 so that's not really evidence of a coverup. People like Lily Allen aren't really helping, they should wait for evidence.

 

[swj99]

I think one of the problems with the way the public is being 'drip fed' the casualty figures, is that most people know the number of dead is likely to be nearer to the 100 mark, and many of the people I've spoken to have said it would probably be better if the authorities just said, "It's looking bad, expect the number of dead to be x amount...." . At least this way, they will have prepared people for the worst, and they'll be seen to be acknowledging the utterly terrible situation for what it is.

Just been reading a BBC news article "London fire: A tale of two tower blocks", and well, have a read and see what you think.....

A 2012 report by the British Automatic Fire Sprinkler Association (BAFSA) concluded that fire sprinklers could be retrofitted with tenants in place at a cost of about £1,150 a flat. Since the 24-storey Grenfell Tower contained 120 flats, it would have worked out at £138,000. That's significantly less than the £2.6m spent on the cladding and replacement windows.

Do you live in a tower block with similar cladding to Grenfell Tower? Let us know by emailing [email protected]

Architect and fire expert Sam Webb said: "We are still wrapping post-war high-rise buildings in highly flammable materials and leaving them without sprinkler systems installed, then being surprised when they burn down.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40290158

 

[jon0844]

The windows and cladding would have been about meeting newer targets on things like heat losses though.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The windows and cladding would have been about meeting newer targets on things like heat losses though.

If mineral cladding rather than plastic had been used, it would have fulfilled those aspects with the added bonus of not becoming a tinderbox in the event of a fire...

 

[CarlSilva]

The windows and cladding would have been about meeting newer targets on things like heat losses though.

Fair one.
Better to be cold than dead though.

 

[cjmillsnun]

If mineral cladding rather than plastic had been used, it would have fulfilled those aspects with the added bonus of not becoming a tinderbox in the event of a fire...

Correct, and would probably had better insulating properties as well.

 

[jon0844]

Fair one.
Better to be cold than dead though.

Erm, yes. But the upgrade works weren't really about fire safety. The two things are unrelated. Sprinklers wouldn't have been instead of new windows. They'd have been a separate project.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I don't think it's a conspiracy, are you aware of the police procedures for identifying the victims? What's more likely is that this is still ongoing and anyway, as another poser has stated, the death toll was confirmed as 30 this afternoon.

Confirmed as at least 30, with the true figure likely to be more than double that once investigators have been through the whole building.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Correct, and would probably had better insulating properties as well.

Which is possibly why it is very marginally more expensive... worth noting that the plastic version is not legal in many places. We're finding out an awful lot about how much value is placed on human lives by certain individuals and organisations, for sure...

 

[najaB]

I think I'd prefer to use JustGiving to something that's there to advertise BT tbh, although if they are the competition that does somewhat explain the Telegraph article.

Personally, I'd rather that the charity got 100% of what I give them rather than 87.5% but to reach their own I guess.

 

[najaB]

I think one of the problems with the way the public is being 'drip fed' the casualty figures, is that most people know the number of dead is likely to be nearer to the 100 mark, and many of the people I've spoken to have said it would probably be better if the authorities just said, "It's looking bad, expect the number of dead to be x amount...." .

Which is *exactly* what they have said. Initially they said it might be over 100, now they're saying it'll likely be about 70.

The 17 and now 30 are confirmed deaths.

 

[Dave1987]

From what I've read in the papers over the last couple of days the affected tower had quite a few millions spent on it recently. One recurring suggestion is that the standards governing insulation and cladding haven't kept pace with modern production methods so the insulation may well not be "substandard", yet has clearly still proved highly flammable.

That is a worrying problem in itself and of course must be looked into ASAP but, if correct, it suggests that simple penny-pinching isn't the root cause of this disaster.

Unfortunately many on the left (Lilly Allen) are falling over themselves to paint this disaster as the result of Tory austerity. This kind of shameless political point scoring is in very poor taste at this stage, before the facts are known and while the building is probably still smouldering.

A very good move right now would be to axe the Buck House and Westminster refurbs and put all the money into ensuring all tower blocks throughout the UK are up to scratch so a terrible tragedy like this does not repeat itself.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A very good move right now would be to axe the Buck House and Westminster refurbs and put all the money into ensuring all tower blocks throughout the UK are up to scratch so a terrible tragedy like this does not repeat itself.

Buck House....what or where is that? We have stayed at the Buck House Hotel at Bangor-on-Dee and that is the only place that I know with that name.

Do you think that the axing of such refurbishments that you mention would provide enough money to "ensuring that all the tower blocks throughout the UK are up to scratch?

Can anyone come up with statistics about the political parties who were both in government and local council power when all these tower blocks in the UK were built?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I suspect agitators on the far left will be hoping to use this tragedy to mobilise big protests and force a collapse of the current non-government in the hope of another election which could well see a Labour majority.

Cynicism of the first degree was there for all to see when amongst the residents with their hand-written placards expressing their personal grief was the usual Socialist Worker headed professionally produced placards expressing nothing about the tragedy but the usual Socialist clap-trap that one expects to see on such posters.

 

[sk688]

Can anyone come up with statistics about the political parties who were both in government and local council power when these tower blocks were built?

This tower was built during from 1972-1974. During that time it was Edward Heather Tory Party in power

Kensington and Chelsea council has been Tory since 1964

The building was also renovated on the cheap under a Tory government, and a Tory run council

Rather ironically, after the refurbishment the chief architect Came out and said that the tower was designed for strength, and could last another 100 years

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This tower was built during from 1972-1974. During that time it was Edward Heather Tory Party in power

Kensington and Chelsea council has been Tory since 1964

The building was also renovated on the cheap under a Tory government, and a Tory run council

Rather ironically, after the refurbishment the chief architect Came out and said that the tower was designed for strength, and could last another 100 years

The statement refers to "all the tower blocks in the UK", not just one specific area.

 

[ainsworth74]

A very good move right now would be to axe the Buck House and Westminster refurbs and put all the money into ensuring all tower blocks throughout the UK are up to scratch so a terrible tragedy like this does not repeat itself.

Or we could do both? Protect our historic buildings and protect our citizens?

Rather ironically, after the refurbishment the chief architect Came out and said that the tower was designed for strength, and could last another 100 years

Well, to be fair to the architect, I would have said that the building has stood up remarkably well to fire damage that has been inflicted which suggests that it had significant strength build in. I'm sure there are plenty of other buildings that if they had been on fire for circa 24 hours they would have collapsed or be in much more significant danger of collapse than Grenfell Tower appears to be.

Any pride he may have expressed about its safety in terms of fire protection however...

The statement refers to "all the tower blocks in the UK", not just one specific area.

Considering that there must be hundreds of these towers scattered throughout the UK build over decades that is going to be a very hard figure for anyone other than someone with a research team to pin down.

I am also unsure of the relevance of such a statistic?

 

[Dave1987]

Buck House....what or where is that? We have stayed at the Buck House Hotel at Bangor-on-Dee and that is the only place that I know with that name.

Do you think that the axing of such refurbishments that you mention would provide enough money to "ensuring that all the tower blocks throughout the UK are up to scratch?

Can anyone come up with statistics about the political parties who were both in government and local council power when all these tower blocks in the UK were built?

The amount of money being ploughed into Buck House and the Palace of Westminster would be more than enough to see these tower blocks made safe. Money far better spent on ensuring these people in tower blocks are safe. Or do you not believe these people deserve that after watching a tower block go up in smoke? But at least I now understand why you are a staunch defender of May, you all seem to share the same traits :roll:

 

[backontrack]

Cynicism of the first degree was there for all to see when amongst the residents with their hand-written placards expressing their personal grief was the usual Socialist Worker headed professionally produced placards expressing nothing about the tragedy but the usual Socialist clap-trap that one expects to see on such posters.

You are Mr Birling and I claim my five pounds.

By Buck House, he's referring to Buckingham Palace. It was originally just a large house, before more and more rooms were added.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

By Buck House, he's referring to Buckingham Palace. It was originally just a large house, before more and more rooms were added.

It was never known as Buck House in its former guise, but that of Buckingham House that was built in 1703 for the Duke of Buckingham, if one wants to be pedantic.

 

[backontrack]

It was never known as Buck House in its former guise, but that of Buckingham House that was built in 1703 for the Duke of Buckingham, if one wants to be pedantic.

We know it wasn't called Buck House. It's what Dave1987 is calling it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Considering that there must be hundreds of these towers scattered throughout the UK build over decades that is going to be a very hard figure for anyone other than someone with a research team to pin down.

Dave1987 said in his posting that the two projects that he referred to could have their total project refurbishment costs relocated into the covering all the upgrading costs of "all the tower blocks in the UK", a statement that bears no financial rhyme nor reason.

You are totally correct in stating there are hundreds of such tower blocks in the UK.

 

[backontrack]

Dave1987 said in his posting that the two projects that he referred to could have their total project refurbishment costs relocated into the covering all the upgrading costs of "all the tower blocks in the UK", a statement that bears no financial rhyme nor reason.

No reason? After Grenfell, I think there's plenty of reason.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No reason? After Grenfell, I think there's plenty of reason.

If any of them are using that specific type of foam insulation under cladding there's plenty of reason to remove it and replace if necessary (remove quickly and urgently even if that leaves it looking silly for a while while they plan the replacement).

Beyond that 1960s tower blocks have a very good fire safety record, so there is indeed no sense in spending a fortune upgrading them all to e.g. fit sprinklers.

The main problem here was the flammable cladding destroying the "closed fire cell" concept which has served the blocks, including one near me, very well.

 

[jon0844]

Won't be long until people are saying we should axe HS2 to pay for everything.