Problems using a Britrail pass on London Overground (denied travel)

[classicmds]

Hi: I'm wondering if anyone can advise about the status of the London Overground service.

I am currently living overseas, so am able to use a Britail England pass.

Today I was informed by a London Overground barrier official that Britail England is not allowed on the London Overground services. He (brusquely) told me to read the Terms and Conditions on the pass which says it is not valid on LO. I said that I thought LO was part of National Rail and he says it is entirely part of TfL and therefore nothing to do with National Rail.

The pass itself actually says nothing about LO at all, and simply states that it is valid on all participating operators. The Britail website includes London Overground as a participating operator. http://www.britrail.com/plan-your-trip/our-trains/local/

My understanding is that "London Overground" is a part of the National Rail network that has been delegated as a concession to TfL who in turn currently franchise it to Arriva London. It is "dressed" like a London Underground service, but is actually a National Rail operator (albeit one controlled by TfL).


Please tell me where I am right and wrong!

Thanks.

 

[Hadders]

You are correct. London Overground is part of the National Rail network. Unfortunately some TfL staff are poorly trained, and TfL would probably like the Overground to have no association with National Rail.

 

[yorkie]

Today I was informed by a London Overground barrier official that Britail England is not allowed on the London Overground services. He (brusquely) told me to read the Terms and Conditions on the pass which says it is not valid on LO. I said that I thought LO was part of National Rail and he says it is entirely part of TfL and therefore nothing to do with National Rail.

He was wrong. What station was this at?

Were you denied travel?

The pass itself actually says nothing about LO at all, and simply states that it is valid on all participating operators. The Britail website includes London Overground as a participating operator. http://www.britrail.com/plan-your-trip/our-trains/local/

Yes, there have been numerous instances of London Overground staff making things up, with no basis whatsoever. Please be sure to provide feedback, so that they can address the issue (again!)

My understanding is that "London Overground" is a part of the National Rail network that has been delegated as a concession to TfL who in turn currently franchise it to Arriva London. It is "dressed" like a London Underground service, but is actually a National Rail operator (albeit one controlled by TfL)..

You are correct.

 

[classicmds]

Thanks for info and confirmation!

Yorkie - I was exiting at Canonbury to meet someone, then coming back in again a few minutes later. He let me out (before giving me the lecture on how I had not been responsible enough to read the T&Cs of my ticket), but said I'd have to use an Oyster card to re-enter -- which I did to avoid the hassle.

He checked with his colleague who also called someone on the phone and they all gave the same answer.

 

[bb21]

A complaint needs to be lodged with London Overground, Transport for London, London Travelwatch if no satisfactory response is forthcoming, and the Department for Transport in my opinion.

This is a regularly reported breach of their conditions, and signals some systematic failure somewhere along the communication chain at the organisation.

 

[classicmds]

Out of curiosity I stopped at the LO gates at Liverpool St this morning to ask the TfL staff whether Britrail was valid on LO. The first person didn't know and pointed me to a "man who would", but the second person spent some time looking on his phone before admitting he did not know and had never come across this issue. I said that it was valid on all National Rail services, so would this include LO since LO is National Rail. He said he didn't know whether LO was National Rail. He was a helpful enough person, but simply didn not have resources to answer question. I think you are right: there is some systemic confusion that perhaps TfL has no interest in overcoming (and one could argue that disguising a NR service as a LU service is itself bound to cause confusion for all!)

 

[bb21]

TfL do not want London Overground to be promoted as a National Rail service, as if National Rail services are somehow second-rate to their own brands, and this is evident in their publicity.

This is unacceptable and causes confusion to customers with National Rail tickets. Incidentally I received a complaint recently from a customer re: ticket validity on London Overground services and refusal by LO gateline staff to allow them through the gate, following routeing advice from one of our ticket office staff. I passed this onto LO with a very stern message re ticket validity and that they are upsetting my customer.

I doubt they would take notice though in all honesty.

But all complaints add up, and I think to force changes, their breach of the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement really need to be emphasised as this is a breach of their operating condition, but unless the DfT were involved, TfL probably won't care, speaking from experience.

 

[sheff1]

He let me out (before giving me the lecture on how I had not been responsible enough to read the T&Cs of my ticket),

Brilliant ! He is lecturing someone about T&Cs when those T&Cs clearly show that the ticket is valid on London Overground.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The more stubborn side of me would want to wind him up sufficiently (but politely) that he made a prosecution report, then make a fool of the TOC in court.

 

[sheff1]

But all complaints add up, and I think to force changes, their breach of the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement really need to be emphasised as this is a breach of their operating condition, but unless the DfT were involved, TfL probably won't care, speaking from experience.

I wonder if a better route, when someone is forced to pay again for a service then have already paid for, is to make a claim under Consumer Rights legislation. I do not know if, or how, an individual could make such a claim (rather than referring the matter to the ORR).

 

[Clip]

The more stubborn side of me would want to wind him up sufficiently (but politely) that he made a prosecution report, then make a fool of the TOC in court.

TfL would never take it to court though.

 

[PeterC]

TfL do not want London Overground to be promoted as a National Rail service, as if National Rail services are somehow second-rate to their own brands, and this is evident in their publicity.

Historically "London Transport" in its various guises has had a better image than "British Railways" in its. I can understand TfL wanting to build on 84 years of goodwill.

 

[swt_passenger]

TfL's own publications are fairly clear that London Overground is part of the National Rail network for ticketing purposes:

1. Introduction
1.1 Rail for London is a subsidiary of Transport for London (TfL) which under the operating name London Overground provides train services on the following routes:
• London Euston to Watford Junction (local services only) • Richmond to Stratford via Willesden Junction
• Stratford/Willesden Junction to Clapham Junction
• Gospel Oak to Barking
• Highbury & Islington to New Cross / Crystal Palace / West Croydon / Clapham Junction • Cheshunt to Liverpool Street (via Seven Sisters)
• Enfield Town to Liverpool Street
• Chingford to Liverpool Street
• Romford to Upminster (via Emerson Park)
Rail for London also uses the operating name TfL Rail under which it provides train services on the following route:
• Shenfield to Liverpool Street (local services only)
London Overground and TfL Rail are part of the National Rail network and the National Rail Conditions of Carriage apply for journeys made on them unless we say otherwise in this Ticketing and Travel Guide.
When you buy a ticket to travel on London Overground and/or TfL Rail, you enter into an agreement with us. That agreement gives you the right to make the journey or journeys between the stations or within the zones shown on the ticket you have paid for. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage are part of that agreement and apply to all journeys by scheduled passenger trains of the Train Operating Companies on the National Rail network.

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/rail-for-london-ticket-and-travel-guide.pdf

The TfL conditions of carriage as of last year, also clearly state that the overground is subject to national rail's conditions.

Perhaps print it all off - and read it to any argumentative TfL platform staff - would be my suggestion.

 

[t0ffeeman]

Many LO staff have been replaced by agency staff since Arriva have taken over

 

[classicmds]

An interesting discussion.

I wrote to Rail Delivery and they wrote back confirming LO is National Rail and thereore any NR ticket (including Britail) is valid. (I know everyone in this thread knows this, but thought I'd add it in case anyone new is searching for info).

They told me they would improve communication with all LO staff about this issue, but I guess this remains to be seen! I wrote back and asked them about what I should do in the immediate situation of being denied entry or exit (or being given a penalty fare) but they did not reply to this! I guess taking around a copy of their email and the info swt_passenger pasted would be a good idea.

On reflection, I guess I could have asked the person denying me exit whether he could sell me a ticket to a National Rail station unconnected with any TfL route (just for example Birmingham New Street). I'm expecting he could (is that correct?) and that this would also be proof (to the staff member) that the line is part of National Rail?

 

[theageofthetra]

Brilliant ! He is lecturing someone about T&Cs when those T&Cs clearly show that the ticket is valid on London Overground.

I would go to someone senior at TFL and report this ignorant fool.

 

[theageofthetra]

Many LO staff have been replaced by agency staff since Arriva have taken over

That explains some if the ill informed rubbish I have been encountering recently.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In a sense ill-informed is not an issue, it's the complete unwillingness to say "hang on a moment" and check before answering.

Just like the ticket clerk at City Thameslink who refused me an Off Peak Day Single to Bedford at 6pm because he thought there was an evening peak restriction when there wasn't. It would have taken him 5 seconds to use the computer in front of him to confirm, but he flat refused.

 

[yorkie]

On reflection, I guess I could have asked the person denying me exit whether he could sell me a ticket to a National Rail station unconnected with any TfL route (just for example Birmingham New Street). I'm expecting he could (is that correct?) and that this would also be proof (to the staff member) that the line is part of National Rail?

That in itself wouldn't prove it; LU ticket offices can sell some such products, probably including Birmingham.

I would go to someone senior at TFL and report this ignorant fool.

I'd log a complaint in the usual way, but as it's been posted here, it has been noticed and senior people are aware of it.

 

[maniacmartin]

The old "we're not part of National Rail" issue at London Overground is long-running and predates Arriva taking on the franchise. Rest assured that TfL are aware but seemingly don't see it as an issue (I and others wrote to them some time ago, and I even got a reply from Rail for London)

 

[sheff1]

The old "we're not part of National Rail" issue at London Overground is long-running and predates Arriva taking on the franchise. Rest assured that TfL are aware but seemingly don't see it as an issue (I and others wrote to them some time ago, and I even got a reply from Rail for London)

Which is why I wondered if a challenge under the newish Consumer Rights legislation might be a good idea.

 

[GiovanniBCY75]

What if you have a London Terminals rail [gold] card and you want to hop on the LO service? Say between New Cross Gate and West Croydon? I always assumed you could use either National Rail trains (Southern) or LO. The LO onboard announcements state you must have a valid ticket to use their service, but I am none the wiser as to what would be valid. A travelcard only? Or a national rail gold card as well?

 

[maniacmartin]

If the ticket is valid on another Train Operating Company on trains between West Croydon and New Cross Gate, and isn't marked as 'SOUTHERN ONLY' or similar, then yes it is also valid on London Overground services taking the same route.

It doesn't have to be a Travelcard or zonal product.

 

[Hadders]

In a sense ill-informed is not an issue, it's the complete unwillingness to say "hang on a moment" and check before answering.

Just like the ticket clerk at City Thameslink who refused me an Off Peak Day Single to Bedford at 6pm because he thought there was an evening peak restriction when there wasn't. It would have taken him 5 seconds to use the computer in front of him to confirm, but he flat refused.

Did you ever get a satisfactory response from GTR on this?

 

[Joe Paxton]

What if you have a London Terminals rail [gold] card and you want to hop on the LO service? Say between New Cross Gate and West Croydon? I always assumed you could use either National Rail trains (Southern) or LO. The LO onboard announcements state you must have a valid ticket to use their service, but I am none the wiser as to what would be valid. A travelcard only? Or a national rail gold card as well?

Regular National Rail tickets are valid on LO services, so that would include a Gold Card (i.e. annual season ticket) issued between Croydon Stations and London Terminals for a journey from New Cross Gate to West Croydon.

The only National Rail tickets not valid on LO are TOC-only tickets, so for this journey any "Southern-only" or "Thameslink-only" tickets would not be valid on LO trains.

 

[classicmds]

Just received this email from TfL customer service about this issue. Here is an (obviously erroneous) categorical denial that TfL operates any National Rail services!:

Thanks for your reply on 20 June about your BritRail pass enquiry.



I’ve looked into this for you. I can confirm you won’t be able to use the BritRail pass on any of our train lines. This pass is only eligible for National Rail lines, such as Southern Rail. Transport for London do not operate any National Rail lines.

I trust that this information has been helpful.



Kind regards

 

[maniacmartin]

Refer them to Rail for London - London Overground and TfL Rail Services Ticketing and Travel Guide, a publication TfL made. Under section 1:

London Overground and TfL Rail are part of the National Rail network and the National Rail
Conditions of Carriage apply for journeys made on them unless we say otherwise in this Ticketing
and Travel Guide.

 

[swt_passenger]

Refer them to Rail for London - London Overground and TfL Rail Services Ticketing and Travel Guide, a publication TfL made. Under section 1:

I agree entirely. I even posted it yesterday...

Comes as no surprise that TfL customer service haven't got a clue.

 

[bubieyehyeh]

The only National Rail tickets not valid on LO are TOC-only tickets, so for this journey any "Southern-only" or "Thameslink-only" tickets would not be valid on LO trains.

While that is probably true for point to point tickets, I'm sure thameslink/southern-only travelcards would be valid on LO trains within the zones it is valid for.

 

[MikeWh]

While that is probably true for point to point tickets, I'm sure thameslink/southern-only travelcards would be valid on LO trains within the zones it is valid for.

Absolutely, yes. Once you are into the validity of a travelcard then any TOC restrictions cease to apply.