Your suggestions for the next Southeastern franchise

[ScotGG]

They just can't stop dropping hints that the bidders are expected to scrap the Networker fleet in favour of 700-alikes, can they?



Plus the substantial TfL operations around Bromley and Orpington by Stagecoach Selkent, of course, though they aren't technically "competitive".

The 707s and 458s are coming aren't they? Not a bad thing in and of themselves but at 5/10 car really not great for a mostly 4/6/8/10/12 car railway, especially given all the millions spent since 2010 to enable 12-car running (which isn't yet complete hence very few 12-car services alongside lack of stock). They will have to be reformed.

Good things about SE - staff are generally very good. Dartford to Vic continuing past 8pm and on Sundays.

PPM has been good lately, but some of the timetable padding added is massive.

 

[Robertj21a]

Southeastern is probably the second worse franchise in the UK after GTR (GN/GX/SN/TL). They have huge problems with customer service and reliability etc.

Really, I wasn't aware of that. Do you have a link to the data ?

 

[urpert]

The 707s and 458s are coming aren't they? Not a bad thing in and of themselves but at 5/10 car really not great for a mostly 4/6/8/10/12 car railway, especially given all the millions spent since 2010 to enable 12-car running (which isn't yet complete hence very few 12-car services alongside lack of stock). They will have to be reformed.

ive.

I know Porterbrook are going to offer the 458s to the bidding teams but I though the 707 suggestion was just forum wibble. The consultation did talk about replacing Networkers with 'modern stock such as the Class 700' though.

 

[Malcolmffc]

Really, I wasn't aware of that. Do you have a link to the data ?

http://d3cez36w5wymxj.cloudfront.ne...Survey-–-NRPS-–-Autumn-2016-–-Main-Report.pdf

In the latest NRPS Southeastern scored 3rd worst for passenger satisfaction ahead only of Southern and Thameslink

 

[ComUtoR]

And yet, one of the highest PPMs for last period.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

Southeastern is probably the second worse franchise in the UK after GTR (GN/GX/SN/TL). They have huge problems with customer service and reliability etc.

They weren't doing too well last year - I think that was mostly attributed to London Bridge. But of course, the general public aren't interested in these details - they just see Southeastern making them late for work again.

Performance has been really good lately - however, the perception from the passengers is that the service is "bad" and that the "customer service sucks", without realising that the service has actually improved and that really, a lot of it is just in their head.

What I will say is this: Some services are currently overcrowded at peak - particularly on the Victoria and Blackfriars routes. 8 coach trains that were already standing-only have been cut down to 6 so that the London Bridge services can be bolstered to 8 or 10 coaches. This highlights that their stock is stretched rather thin, worsened by the ongoing refresh of the 375s. SE does now have the mini-fleet of 377501-508, which will hopefully get boosted by 509-523 once Thameslink are done with them. That may well be enough to relieve the strain in the short term.

It would be interesting to see someone like Stagecoach take over the franchise, but I won't lose much sleep if Govia keeps it - so long as they don't go nuclear with DOO, as feared by at least a few people.

 

[ScotGG]

Metro is DOO and is a freeloaders paradise now as most stations are open. So easy to not pay. Doing the same with mid/long distance would be moronic without staffing every station, and I just can't see that when even stations like Lewisham (8 or 9m users a year) are open after 8pm, and stations like Greenwich are open all day long (3.5m users a year)

 

[AlexNL]

Should SE go to Stagecoach, then at least they won't have to repaint the 707's as they're already in the correct livery

 

[Malcolmffc]

And yet, one of the highest PPMs for last period.

One swallow doesn't make a summer. SE have been appalling for years, since well before the Thameslink programme.

 

[urpert]

Should SE go to Stagecoach, then at least they won't have to repaint the 707's as they're already in the correct livery

I was thinking the same thing. Be particularly amusing if they got the 458s too.

 

[Robertj21a]

One swallow doesn't make a summer. SE have been appalling for years, since well before the Thameslink programme.

In your book is nobody allowed to improve ?. Surely, an example of a well-run operation is one that learns from previous mistakes ?

 

[CC 72100]

http://d3cez36w5wymxj.cloudfront.ne...Survey-–-NRPS-–-Autumn-2016-–-Main-Report.pdf

In the latest NRPS Southeastern scored 3rd worst for passenger satisfaction ahead only of Southern and Thameslink

Commuter operations are never likely to do particularly well in NRPS.

 

[ComUtoR]

SE have been appalling for years

So prove it. Where can I find a list of historic PPM figures please ?

Appalling is very subjective. This 'survey' has such a low sample size that I see it having little to no value whatsoever.

 

[Barn]

As a daily Southeastern Metro user, my perception of the reliability is massively better than it was a few years ago.

I have a few complaints:

- Govia-style communication skills (i.e. they have 'consultation timetables' on their website but absolutely no guidance about how the consultation is to operate, how to respond, etc).

- Poor aesthetic fleet maintenance (the difference coming off a 455 at Waterloo and onto a 465 at Waterloo East is striking).

- Off-peak service more frequent than peak service.

But generally, it gets me to work reliably every day. I can leave for the station without feeling like I need to check if the trains are running.

 

[urpert]

As a daily Southeastern Metro user, my perception of the reliability is massively better than it was a few years ago.

I have a few complaints:

- Govia-style communication skills (i.e. they have 'consultation timetables' on their website but absolutely no guidance about how the consultation is to operate, how to respond, etc).

- Poor aesthetic fleet maintenance (the difference coming off a 455 at Waterloo and onto a 465 at Waterloo East is striking).

- Off-peak service more frequent than peak service.

But generally, it gets me to work reliably every day. I can leave for the station without feeling like I need to check if the trains are running.

As another daily user, I would agree with all of this. It's noticeable how unstaffed and uncared-for many of the stations feel compared to Southern/SWT suburban stations, though, perhaps in part due to the lack of gating.

 

[Bromley boy]

As a daily Southeastern Metro user, my perception of the reliability is massively better than it was a few years ago.

I have a few complaints:

- Poor aesthetic fleet maintenance (the difference coming off a 455 at Waterloo and onto a 465 at Waterloo East is striking).

- Off-peak service more frequent than peak service.

I fully agree with both of these points.

The 455s had a deep clean and interior refresh a few years back which made them look and feel like brand new trains. The 465s are now very ropey in comparison and getting worse. Sadly the 376s are starting to go the same way.

The service is certainly a lot more sparse in the counter-peak direction during both the AM and PM peaks (is this what you meant)? This is largely due to stock shortages and, of course, squeezing capacity out of the Victorian infrastructure, but agreed it can be an issue.

 

[Barn]

The service is certainly a lot more sparse in the counter-peak direction during both the AM and PM peaks (is this what you meant)? This is largely due to stock shortages and, of course, squeezing capacity out of the Victorian infrastructure, but agreed it can be an issue.

And in the peak direction! Stations on my line have a solid 6tph off-peak (train every 10 minutes) but there are 25 minute gaps during the peak.

 

[Bromley boy]

And in the peak direction! Stations on my line have a solid 6tph off-peak (train every 10 minutes) but there are 25 minute gaps during the peak.

Not ideal!

Out of interest, which line are you on?

 

[Barn]

Not ideal!

Out of interest, which line are you on?

Greenwich / North Kent line.

 

[HH]

I have bad news for you poor SEL/Kent commuters. There's likely to be less SE trains in the peak when the works are finished at London Bridge. DfT have been warned about this many times, but have been doing a "naughty boy" impression.

Oh well, by 2020 the benefits of Brexit will be kicking in and they'll be able to spend the billions needed to fix it (said while wearing his BoJo wig, red nose and long, pointy shoes).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Compared to Connex days , SET is excellent. No filthy , etched trains , basic-ish stations but fairly clean. (Connex had to pay huge sums of money to restore the fleet to as handed over condition as they foolishly let ambience conditions to save money)

OK - I only generally go off peak on the North Kent line and occasionally at busier times - but I find them actually OK. The legacy of the old railway (and it could be grim in BR days) I not that bad. Could be tighter on revenue control etc.

Basically Connex trashed the BR Networker upgrade.

 

[Malcolmffc]

So prove it. Where can I find a list of historic PPM figures please ?

Appalling is very subjective. This 'survey' has such a low sample size that I see it having little to no value whatsoever.

By all means look at SE's sub-par PPM stretching back years.

But PPM is not a sensible metric to measure customer satisfaction. It doesn't take count of cleanliness, staff friendliness, short formations, info in disruption etc.

 

[yorksrob]

I have bad news for you poor SEL/Kent commuters. There's likely to be less SE trains in the peak when the works are finished at London Bridge. DfT have been warned about this many times, but have been doing a "naughty boy" impression.
).

Out of interest, what is likely to cause this ? I was under the impression that the London Bridge works would increase capacity - or will Thameslink 2000 soak it all up !

 

[Bromley boy]

Out of interest, what is likely to cause this ? I was under the impression that the London Bridge works would increase capacity - or will Thameslink 2000 soak it all up !

I believe post TL program, the current SE semi fast Gillingham services (via Blackheath and Charlton) will be entirely replaced by GTR services. As now, no ex Charing + trains will run down the Greenwich line, so the service on that line will be below the level it was before the works began.

The main capacity benefit for SE passengers is the simplification of the platform layout on the Charing + side of London Bridge and removal of the historic bottleneck. The Cannon St side won't end up much different.

Perhaps Bald Rick, or someone else more in the know than I am, could confirm.

 

[ComUtoR]

By all means look at SE's sub-par PPM stretching back years.

I have no idea where to get the information from. hence asking.

But PPM is not a sensible metric to measure customer satisfaction.

PPM is the accepted measure of performance. Whilst I don't agreew tih PPM it is based on actual statistics. If you want to complain about reliability then using PPM is the best method. It shows in black and white what the reliability figures are, rather than a highly subjective passenger survey.

It doesn't take count of cleanliness, staff friendliness, short formations, info in disruption etc.

Which is purely subjective data. Less than 2k passengers were surveyed. How is that remotely representative of the millions of passengers SE shift every single day.

 

[yorksrob]

I believe post TL program, the current SE semi fast Gillingham services (via Blackheath and Charlton) will be entirely replaced by GTR services. As now, no ex Charing + trains will run down the Greenwich line, so the service on that line will be below the level it was before the works began.

The main capacity benefit for SE passengers is the simplification of the platform layout on the Charing + side of London Bridge and removal of the historic bottleneck. The Cannon St side won't end up much different.

Perhaps Bald Rick, or someone else more in the know than I am, could confirm.

Ah thanks. Sorry to be dim, does that mean that the semi-fast Blackheath service is becoming GTR or is it being ditched for another GTR route ?

 

[Bromley boy]

Ah thanks. Sorry to be dim, does that mean that the semi-fast Blackheath service is becoming GTR or is it being ditched for another GTR route ?

As far as I know current plans* are for it to be exclusively GTR. SE will retain existing rounders and Dartford terminators.

A knock-on benefit of this will be networker stock freed up for 12 car operations during the peak and perhaps to reduce the number of 6 car Orpy - Vic and Vic - Dartford workings.

*plans which are difficult to find out about, and are prone to changing by the minute.

 

[yorksrob]

As far as I know current plans* are for it to be exclusively GTR. SE will retain existing rounders and Dartford terminators.

A knock-on benefit of this will be networker stock freed up for 12 car operations during the peak and perhaps to reduce the number of 6 car Orpy - Vic and Vic - Dartford workings.

*plans which are difficult to find out about, and are prone to changing by the minute.

Ah thanks, so it sounds like the line will still have as many trains to central London, just some will go to a different bit and be run by a different TOC.

 

[Bromley boy]

Ah thanks, so it sounds like the line will still have as many trains to central London, just some will go to a different bit and be run by a different TOC.

I believe so. As many trains as now, less than pre-works.

I imagine once Crossrail comes online at scAbbey Wood, lots of passengers will change here so trains on the mid-Kent/Greenwich will be quieter "up" of this point than they are now.

 

[yorksrob]

I believe so. As many trains as now, less than pre-works.

I imagine once Crossrail comes online at scAbbey Wood, lots of passengers will change here so trains on the mid-Kent/Greenwich will be quieter "up" of this point than they are now.

Ah, less than pre-works might be an issue. I always imagined things would get 'back to normal' after completion, albeit going to different terminals perhaps.