I was given a wrong route by the signaller but spotted it and questioned it ie I did not take it, to my surprise it has been put on my record as an operational incident surely this is not correct, I know of people who have had operational incidents and it's not gone on their record . I will of course take it up with my local rep and have it removed if I can, but what are other people's view on this am I correct in my thoughts ? Many thanks.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Operating incident on your record or not ?
- Thread starter BTU
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
185
Established Member
- Joined
- 29 Aug 2010
- Messages
- 5,486
I had a door open in traffic some years ago on mine, revealed after a (horrid) guards manager left, and my friend replaced her. I wouldn't mind, I was travelling pass on the train in question - and was not even in the (coupled) unit it happened on. It did take months and some complaining to have my (clean) record scrubbed, but not once received an apology.
That only came to light when a few years later, the 170 I was working, having had a string of electrical faults opened all doors (inc offside) when just the platform side was released. They tried putting that onto my card aswell, even after the CCTV was pulled and it was determined I would need a 12-foot arm to open both sides.
That only came to light when a few years later, the 170 I was working, having had a string of electrical faults opened all doors (inc offside) when just the platform side was released. They tried putting that onto my card aswell, even after the CCTV was pulled and it was determined I would need a 12-foot arm to open both sides.
RPM
Established Member
Isn't 'operating incident' the current vernacular for an incident that isn't your fault? Category B and C SPADS are now operating incidents are they not? So maybe an operating incident on your record isn't something to worry about? It's a safety of the line incident you don't want.
nom de guerre
Member
- Joined
- 24 Nov 2015
- Messages
- 784
How on earth can you be disciplined for not making a mistake?
100% the signaller's error. (I'm a signaller).
100% the signaller's error. (I'm a signaller).
My point exactly I did nothing wrong so why is it on my record ?
godfreycomplex
Established Member
- Joined
- 23 Jun 2016
- Messages
- 1,484
It definitely doesn't count as a "safety of the line" incident any day of the week - 100% signallers' error (I'm a signaller as well. There can be mitigating circumstances but that's a different kettle of fish)
I wouldn't say it should be formally recorded either, although he/she may make an informal note of it if you're shaken up by it or something. But nothing should be formally on the record, according to the rules as I understand them
I wouldn't say it should be formally recorded either, although he/she may make an informal note of it if you're shaken up by it or something. But nothing should be formally on the record, according to the rules as I understand them
This is what my line manager told me. Story number 1, because I took power up to the signal to double check the aspect but bearing in mind I stopped and did not pass the signal, according to him it had to be recorded because I took power up to a wrong route, that as far as I'm concerned is total BS of the highest order.
Story number 2, all operating incidents go on a persons record, the BS is now in full flow, as far as I'm aware if you don't pass the signal and the signaller changes the road back to the correct one then no harm done possibly the signaller may get a ticking off and there's the oblivious report to be filled in by driver and signaller which I did.I think I will get through the union to have it removed.
Last edited:
MichaelAMW
Member
- Joined
- 18 Jun 2010
- Messages
- 1,018
I don't follow the "taking power" bit. Were you stationary some way before the signal but started to move, from a point where you couldn't see the aspect clearly enough, and then stopped when you were nearer the signal?
I'm only a young'un on the railway, but even after 7 years I haven't known "Not taking a wrong route" to have ever been classed as an operating incident at our TOC. It sounds like someone's trying to make a name for themselves. I'd definitely have a chat with your local Rep.
If you're in a position where the signaller can put the signal back to danger then set the correct route, I don't see how it can be classed as an operating incident. I've been given numerous wrong routes (which I've never taken), and all that's happened is I've received a letter from line managers saying "well done on not taking it".
There's a few places on my line where we have signals at end of platforms with multiple routes, and a couple where the junction is the signal after the platform signal. However, both of those are visible from the platform when at a stand, so if I can see that I've been given a wrong route, I will call the signaller from the platform, so that they can reset the route without having to worry about the time-out. Maybe this is why your manager is getting his knickers in a twist?
If you're in a position where the signaller can put the signal back to danger then set the correct route, I don't see how it can be classed as an operating incident. I've been given numerous wrong routes (which I've never taken), and all that's happened is I've received a letter from line managers saying "well done on not taking it".
There's a few places on my line where we have signals at end of platforms with multiple routes, and a couple where the junction is the signal after the platform signal. However, both of those are visible from the platform when at a stand, so if I can see that I've been given a wrong route, I will call the signaller from the platform, so that they can reset the route without having to worry about the time-out. Maybe this is why your manager is getting his knickers in a twist?
Probably not the best of explanations but clearly your Line Manager sees it as something they needed to note. The problem with this industry is liability. Should you do this again there is no evidence record of what previously happened. Clearly there is more to the story than first appears. Rightly or wrongly it will be down to the person interpreting the download and looking at the incident in detail and relative to other incidents of the same nature, your own driving history, and the PDP in place.
I understand your angry but you need to wind it back a little and have a rethink. Whilst we sometimes consider our SOL record as an 'incident' record, it kinda isn't any more. I would also not consider it as a 'Safety of the line' record anymore. Its just a record of what has happened throughout your career. Consider this even as something where you acted in good time to prevent taking a wrong route. Again, if it happens again, you have an evidence trail in your favour.
Delay to the service is harm done.
Good luck with that. In my experience the Union can't get stuff removed from a record because it has actually happened. They will need to consider the incident in detail and consider if there is any specific policy to say what can and cannot go on your driving record.
Personally I'd brush it off, think on what the DM has discussed, and follow whatever advice has been given. Move on, don't dwell on it tbh.
nom de guerre
Member
- Joined
- 24 Nov 2015
- Messages
- 784
I suspect BTU meant 'harm' in the context of obeying the rulebook.
In the absence of the rest of 'Story 1' I will withhold judgement. I have been wrong routed more times than I can remember and it hasn't once been put on my record. However, I stop my train and call the Sig. I don't move my unit and....
The reality is that on approach I have the brake in and I'm bringing my unit to a stand. The GSMR goes off pretty sharpish and I can already predict the call. I stop, call the Sig, and he or she resets the road. That is done on a red and the route is timed out. I never move my unit.
There is another scenario which none of us would like to admit but you can be approaching the junction and the Sig pulls the road. To me its change of aspect but I never report it as such and understand the Sig has reset the road, but then I'm a little old school in that respect.
In that scenario I release the brakes and stop at the red instead. I shouldn't as I just had a change of aspect but I still stop and then not move.
I don't recall any really specific rules (other than when you can and can't set back)for wrong routes and how to drive and our PDP doesn't say anything either. Pulling power against a red after stopping is frowned upon and I can see that as requiring to be noted.
Personally I also think that 'no harm done' is not the attitude we need to follow. We need to have an attitude where we see risk before it happens and respect PDPs, Rules and general driving behaviours. No consequence doesn't mean we can be lax in our duties.
Still, I take your point Signaller.
contrad!ction
Member
- Joined
- 15 Dec 2014
- Messages
- 103
A (slightly) related question from a curious signaller.
There are a number of signals on our patch that are quite tightly approach controlled and quite frequently drivers don't pull far enough down to hit the track circuit that's needed to be occupied for the signal to come off - meaning we need to tell them to move closer to the signal for it to come off (against a red...)
Is this generally frowned upon in your PDP etc...?
A few drivers have stated that they can't move closer against a red which is fair enough, but if they never move down the signal will never come off and we're in a catch-22 situation...
Cheers in advance
If I may, a brief railway history lesson. (anecdotal)
Back in the day you knew all the approach controlled signals and er.. you would drive towards them as if they were guaranteed to come off. Literally just keep driving and time it so perfect that it would come off as you were pretty much passing it.
Then came TPWS and AWS. They would trip you but.. you can circumvent them pretty easy so you still approached them quick.
Then came driving policy and 15mph at the red. Approach fast, hit the brakes, 15 at the magnet, signal clears green.
Now we have PDP's and more absolute rules. You MUST, defensive driving etc. What also happened is that approach control was not taught. It was mentioned but under the banner of 'approach control doesn't exist' Now Trainees aren't event taught that. 2Y 1Y R. 20mph by 200m, stop 1 coach length. Black and white this must happen or you are breaking the PDP.
It is by professional driving that we stop correctly from the red. There is no need to pull forward and if you did then you are increasing risk and should have driven professionally enough to stop.
We had one where a Driver refused to move. Whilst we are certainly taught that the Signaller can clear the signal and the Driver believed he didn't need to move, it did cause a Mexican standoff.
I can't find approach control in the rulebook and I have often said we drive to two different sets of rules. Catch 22's shouldn't happen but back in the day... no one cared.
Taking power towards a red isn't professional and increases risk. Stop in the right place the first time
PS. I know some where I can count to the second when the signal clears
The safety culture on the railway has moved on a lot since BR days. A little ott in some places but some of the much older generation remember the bad times and remember Clapham and other disasters. I have noticed that the new generation of Drivers don't care. 'nothing happened', 'TPWS stopped the train', 'I only passed the red by', 'its just an offside release', 'no one died' etc etc.
I think it will take another disaster to hit home how important PDP's are.
Cheers in advance
Anytime.
If you do get me as a Driver. I will move my train BUT you will acknowledge it and authorise the movement before I do so. Just in case .....
On the flip side If I have had a signal go back; Because I see this as a faulty signal I request to be authorised to pass it at
TL;DR Not banned in any way, just frowned on heavily.
Last edited:
If I may, a brief railway history lesson. (anecdotal)
Back in the day you knew all the approach controlled signals and er.. you would drive towards them as if they were guaranteed to come off. Literally just keep driving and time it so perfect that it would come off as you were pretty much passing it.
Then came TPWS and AWS. They would trip you but.. you can circumvent them pretty easy so you still approached them quick.
Then came driving policy and 15mph at the red. Approach fast, hit the brakes, 15 at the magnet, signal clears green.
Now we have PDP's and more absolute rules. You MUST, defensive driving etc. What also happened is that approach control was not taught. It was mentioned but under the banner of 'approach control doesn't exist' Now Trainees aren't event taught that. 2Y 1Y R. 20mph by 200m, stop 1 coach length. Black and white this must happen or you are breaking the PDP.
It is by professional driving that we stop correctly from the red. There is no need to pull forward and if you did then you are increasing risk and should have driven professionally enough to stop.
We had one where a Driver refused to move. Whilst we are certainly taught that the Signaller can clear the signal and the Driver believed he didn't need to move, it did cause a Mexican standoff.
I can't find approach control in the rulebook and I have often said we drive to two different sets of rules. Catch 22's shouldn't happen but back in the day... no one cared.
Taking power towards a red isn't professional and increases risk. Stop in the right place the first time
PS. I know some where I can count to the second when the signal clears
The safety culture on the railway has moved on a lot since BR days. A little ott in some places but some of the much older generation remember the bad times and remember Clapham and other disasters. I have noticed that the new generation of Drivers don't care. 'nothing happened', 'TPWS stopped the train', 'I only passed the red by', 'its just an offside release', 'no one died' etc etc.
I think it will take another disaster to hit home how important PDP's are.
Anytime.
If you do get me as a Driver. I will move my train BUT you will acknowledge it and authorise the movement before I do so. Just in case .....
On the flip side If I have had a signal go back; Because I see this as a faulty signal I request to be authorised to pass it atdanger.red but because the Signaller sees it as clear he doesn't give me permission. Another catch 22
TL;DR Not banned in any way, just frowned on heavily.
Authorise what? Just in case what? You want the signaller to carry the can should you pull up and not stop?
A (slightly) related question from a curious signaller.
There are a number of signals on our patch that are quite tightly approach controlled and quite frequently drivers don't pull far enough down to hit the track circuit that's needed to be occupied for the signal to come off - meaning we need to tell them to move closer to the signal for it to come off (against a red...)
Is this generally frowned upon in your PDP etc...?
A few drivers have stated that they can't move closer against a red which is fair enough, but if they never move down the signal will never come off and we're in a catch-22 situation...
Cheers in advance
I'm aware that there was a signal at Shenfield (it may have gone as part of the remodeling) which if I remember correctly was from the up main to the up electric which was approach controlled and the trigger was within the platform. Not a serious issue for power doors but for hauled sets another matter. If a hauled set with slam doors stopped in the platform it needed to be dispatched as if it was a station stop, obviously the doors were not released, so on several occasions drivers would stop Norwich side of the platform waiting for it to come off so there wasn't the need to dispatch as they were not in the platform. Obviosuly the issue was that signal never came off and the singalman had to ring the driver to get them to draw forward to get the signal to come off...
axlecounter
Member
Just in case something like the OP's case happens...
contrad!ction
Member
- Joined
- 15 Dec 2014
- Messages
- 103
Interesting! Certainly in the more modern IECC's/panel boxes etc all we can do is set the route from the signal to wherever. The relays/SSI will hold that signal at danger until the track has been occupied for x seconds so there is nothing we can do. (Can't speak for the older boxes/semaphores as I don't work them!)
Do you mean if the signal goes back then stays red or clears back up? If the signal has gone back and stays red then this will be for a reason (track failure in the section ahead/the next signal is blank etc...) so we'll have no choice but to talk you past. If you've gone past it then we still have to effectively talk you past (same procedure in setting the route / route cards blah blah...)
If it clears back up again then after getting all the details (3185 if required etc...) then I'm not going to talk past - it's showing a proceed aspect. There are exceptions such as if there is a flicking track in the section ahead and there's a good chance you're going to get another change if I clear it again - the risk of a SPAD isn't worth it in that case and it's easier to just talk past. I always prefer to clear a signal if I can and the rules & regs allow as I get the nice comfy security of the interlocking.
The situation of a signal showing red on the ground and green/off in the box is difficult to achieve (certainly in the modern boxes) and means something has gone seriously awry in the system somewhere. Certainly (with a few exceptions) all our signals are lamp proven on the panel meaning that the aspect displayed to us has been proven to be the aspect showing on the ground. If the system isn't sure or communication is lost the signal shows no aspect to us (a blank circle) but could be displaying anything on the ground - most likely a red.
Agree about the 2 rule books as well...
Sadly, in a way, yes. As Axel says. In the same respect the Signaller is doing the same. Sometimes they won't state you need to pull forward and I understand why they can't but they are asking us to break our PDP and asking us to pull within 1 coach length from the signal. At the least, I want that recorded before I break my PDP etc. They too know that they wont 'authorise it' because they potentially will carry the can. Hence the Mexican standoff that ensues.
The signal that this occurred at the most on my network has been removed. A new one elsewhere caused a similar problem (London Bridge I'm looking at you) because the grids are in the rear of the signal and not next to it. They had to issue a specific instruction for us to pull over the grids and we all know the problems that can cause :/
Don't get me wrong. I'll pull up because I know where I need to and feel like that it was my failure of route knowledge that I didn't stop correctly. However, we are being pulled up for stopping short, long and our downloads will measure exactly where you stopped from the signal thanks to our OTMR being linked to GPS co-ordinates.
Once I've had that discussion with the Signaller about the signal not being able to be cleared and once I'm happy we have come to a 'clear understanding' then yes, I'll move my unit.
It's a crap situation but neither side will agree to moving the unit and that is because they will carry the can for the fallout. I hate it and hate it with a passion but once I've stopped, 1 coach from the signal, I ain't moving without good reason and being specifically told I can. Such a crappy grey area
Even then we still get pulled up for moving the unit !
Last edited:
'Approach control' in mechanical boxes works in one of two ways - either the lever controlling the signal is locked in the frame until the interlocking is ready for the signal to be cleared, or (only for colour light signals, or I suppose motor-worked semaphores!) the lever is reversed to set the route but the signal's held at danger until, again, the interlocking's ready. No (legal!) way of overriding it in either case.
In some cases, generally where 'approach control' is required in the signalling regs (rather than a part of a specific signalling installation), e.g. signals in rear of the section signal where the latter is being held 'on', it's not enforced by the locking so the driver wouldn't need to draw up to allow the signal to clear, but then you'd hopefully see that the train was clearly under control and pull off, even if it had stopped some distance away!
Going back a bit, though, I understand that this is a particular problem where 'Lime Street control' or similar is employed, using track circuits to 'measure' a train to determine whether it'll fit into a partially occupied or short platform - so, if the driver stops a little too far from the signal, the rear of the train will still be occupying the track circuit in rear, making the interlocking think that the train is longer than it really is? I've a feeling that this IS something that can be overridden, at some locations at least.
The other stuff, taking power approaching a red or stopping a little too close to the signal - if it's contravened the PDP or is otherwise considered bad practice, maybe it'll be highlighted as a competence issue internally, an area for development or whatever they want to call it - but it surely shouldn't go on your SOL record still?! I thought our PDP, in the brave new world, was pretty restrictive, but I'm sure there's nothing in there to prevent you from taking power approaching a red or drawing closer to a signal once you've stopped.
Yes, the signal stepped up again. From my perspective the signal is faulty and ergo I cannot accept the aspect regardless of what it shows.
In my personal experience I have had a signal disco dance (flipping between aspects) and then it settled on green and I was talked past.
I have had a signal step down to red, then back to green and the Signaller tell me not to worry as it was 'points bounce'
I've had signals step down, back up to green then step to yellow.
A signal step down to red, flip through the aspects, step to green and this is where I refused to take the signal as green. I approached it and guess what.... Went back on me again when I was about a foot from the signal.
Everything I'm told says if the signal is faulty. I need to be authorised past regardless of what it is showing.
I've even had Signallers call me asking what its showing because he didn't have a clue. 'Driver, can you tell me what LXXX is showing because my panel is totally blank and I haven't got a clue' The signal was clear with J4
Other than being told by Managers and Trainers I have never seen anything written down about accepting a signal as green after it has reverted to red. It's a fault. Only pass on authority.
Last edited:
Precisely.
PDP's are still quite new and constantly changing. They are still very reactive policies. They can be very grey at times and often open to interpretation. Whilst I can't find anything specific in my PDP, it does highlight what you say above. Potentially there are competency issues. Where should that be recorded ? I think SOL records are going out and new 'competency' records are now being kept. (we are now using eCMS) It's difficult to think of this as anything else but a punishment but it can work both ways.
Competency management needs to be recorded. I'm somewhere between Driver and Manager and even I understand that. RAIB reports dig into a Drivers history and at my TOC our last major incident raised the issue of competencies not being recorded or even managed. The SOL record is a place where this can be recorded. Nothing more, nothing less. Just a record of events.
Last edited:
contrad!ction
Member
- Joined
- 15 Dec 2014
- Messages
- 103
This is interesting to hear from the other side. It's very situational specific and as I said, if there is a risk the signal is going to revert back once I clear it then I'll keep the signal at red and talk past. If the signal has cleared again (momentary power blip/points briefly losing detection etc...) then once I'd ascertained I didn't have any weird stuff going on and everything was ok (the workstation hasn't frozen / all points had detection back etc...) I'd be authorising you to proceed as normal and that you have my authority to obey xxx signal and all others. If I wasn't sure what was going on then I would (unsurprisingly) tell you to stay put for the meantime...
(There are so many situations thought it's difficult to speak more generally)
It's a very grey area and there are no rules or regs to say what to do and to a large extent this is very area specific. Plenty of other places have auto signals that are non-replaceable and/or non-reliable in the box (meaning we can't rely on them to show a red aspect on the ground just because we've operated the replacement switch). Indeed, there might not even be a replacement switch.
In this case there would be no way to stop the signal emulating a disco if, for example, the tracks ahead were flicking intermittently.
(As I said - this isn't the case where I work so I can count myself lucky really...)
In short: if I can confirm the signal is a steady aspect and I'm pretty sure it won't go back then I'd authorise you to proceed and obey the aspect, stuck at red or disco time OR I'm not convinced it won't go back then I'll authorise you to pass it at danger. This is surprisingly difficult to write down well and I agree with what you're saying 100%.
Last edited:
Which is perfect for me. If you Authorised me to obey the aspect then I'm just as good to go. That way if it did then revert to red, I'm in the clear.
My personal issue with that particular situation was that I had just been authorised past one. The second changed on approach. I asked what if he was going to authorise me past. He said its green and he wouldn't. A brief discussion later and then on approach to the third signal..... Not a good day for anyone that day.
I fully understand about it being a catch 22 and I respect my colleagues with the fish tank. We are just being hammered every time on rules and regs. Until something serious happens it will remain a grey area. Its very situational and most signals are good as gold. Its the ones that regularly revert to red or where your continually wrong routed that are the problem.
As an aside. More and more I will just sit on a single yellow and wait til it steps up before moving. There is one in the core section where I don't think any Driver pulls away on a single yellow. We have one on our network now where they wont even dispatch on a single yellow.
Aren't choo choos fun
Just a quick one (sorry, can't really quote selectively on this contraption!):
Competence management system vs SOL record. My understanding is that the former, the tool that your employer uses to manage (and, as you say, record) every minute aspect of your competence, is just an internal thing and won't be looked at by another potential employer, whereas the latter *is* "transferable" and contains details of any SOL incidents whether you were at fault or not. Approach a red (no TPWS!) too quickly on a ride out or a download and it'll go on the CMS as an area for improvement or whatever - but not the SOL record. Stop on the wrong side of the red and it'll go on your SOL record as well as on the CMS so that your development, action plan and any other issues arising can be monitored. Right or wrong?
Competence management system vs SOL record. My understanding is that the former, the tool that your employer uses to manage (and, as you say, record) every minute aspect of your competence, is just an internal thing and won't be looked at by another potential employer, whereas the latter *is* "transferable" and contains details of any SOL incidents whether you were at fault or not. Approach a red (no TPWS!) too quickly on a ride out or a download and it'll go on the CMS as an area for improvement or whatever - but not the SOL record. Stop on the wrong side of the red and it'll go on your SOL record as well as on the CMS so that your development, action plan and any other issues arising can be monitored. Right or wrong?
Difficult to distinguish. They are both parts of your drivers file. 'Competencies' include and are not limited to Route knowledge, Assessment scores, FDA's, OTMR records and a more formal record of what is required for a Driver to maintain their 'competence'
The SOL record at my TOC isn't what it used to be and has become part of your file and is so integrated now that it is barely distinguishable.
From an anecdotal perspective only. Your new TOC gets everything. I've never transferred but the ones I know have state that their entire file goes with them. However, the sentence in bold certainly answers the OP's question.
Difficult for me to say exactly but for me its the same thing. We go through our files every 2 years formally and informally during an FDA. We have a Driver recently who was involved in an incident but he was exonerated. It's not on his CMS or his SOL but its been recorded on his file. We seem to be moving away from the accusatory era and just making everything simply 'on record' I'd lean towards what you say as right but I am reminded of a Rose and its smell.
I know someone who had an incident a few weeks ago. I'll ask him where it was 'filed'
All this talk of approach controlled signals confuses me because they don't exist [emoji6]
By "core section", do you men's between St. Pancras and Blackfriars? Which signal/line is that on?
By "core section", do you men's between St. Pancras and Blackfriars? Which signal/line is that on?
MichaelAMW
Member
- Joined
- 18 Jun 2010
- Messages
- 1,018
I ask this based on something I saw yesterday, which must be pretty normal at the location: what do you do, if you MUST stop a coach length back, when there is a red signal at the end of a platform that means you need to be closer to get all the train to be next to the platform?
- Status