General Election 2017: The Results and Aftermath

[Dave1987]

I am specific talking about jobs like I have done working in a cafe or a supermarket. Jobs you do not need qualifications for. Jobs that are paid minimum wage regardless of experience. Two people start work at the same time, with the same level of experience, will be paid differently if one is older than the other. How is that at all fair?

Remember anyone who doesn't go to university and get a degree is seemingly viewed as an inferior human being :roll: how dare they they demand decent wages!!

Wait until there aren't any unskilled jobs left and the skilled workforce have to pay for the unskilled workforce to do nothing, then they will complain......

 

[Jonny]

Well not quite, inflation would hurt people with large amounts of fluid cash available more than people without it.

Unfortunately, there are often some hidden side-effects. It is often the case that wages then follow inflation, but the tax (income tax or equivalent) thresholds are kept the same, and the government creams off the extra as a stealth tax rise (known as fiscal drag). So other people get hit, who might not necessarily have a pile of cash.

Also, those with the biggest cash piles often are not the richest in society either

 

[najaB]

What exactly is the problem with the minimum wage for young people being the same as that for older people? If they are doing the same job, shouldn't they be paid the same?

The main reason is their lack of experience. As an employer, if two people are going for the same job and one has experience and the other not then I'd be crazy not to favour the one with experience if I have to pay them both the same.

If the one without experience is a bit cheaper, then I'd be more willing to give them a chance.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The main reason is their lack of experience. As an employer, if two people are going for the same job and one has experience and the other not then I'd be crazy not to favour the one with experience if I have to pay them both the same.

If the one without experience is a bit cheaper, then I'd be more willing to give them a chance.

But that is a question of experience, not age. They do not always follow as you expect!

 

[najaB]

But that is a question of experience, not age. They do not always follow as you expect!

True. But simple maths tells you that a 16 year old is unlikely to have a lot of year's worth of work experience.

 

[PHILIPE]

Teresa May has been criticised for not going here and there and a reluctance to meet people, especially Grenfall residents. Today was Armed Forces Day but did the Leader of the Labour Party pay his respects ? No. He went to Glastonbury spouting his usual stuff from the stage. Actually got as great a reception from the young naive as if he had been performing on the stage.

 

[AlterEgo]

Teresa May has been criticised for not going here and there and a reluctance to meet people, especially Grenfall residents. Today was Armed Forces Day but did the Leader of the Labour Party pay his respects ? No. He went to Glastonbury spouting his usual stuff from the stage. Actually got as great a reception from the young naive as if he had been performing on the stage.

Armed Forces Day isn't about "paying respects" to anyone - you're conflating it with Remembrance Sunday. But do carry on, I'm rather sick of politics and the tribalism it engenders.

 

[Darandio]

Actually got as great a reception from the young naive as if he had been performing on the stage.

And now yet another person makes themselves look silly in this thread.

 

[sk688]

No. He went to Glastonbury spouting his usual stuff from the stage. Actually got as great a reception from the young naive as if he had been performing on the stage.

I would have to ask what you mean by this statement

The man got a good reception , because of his appealing nature , and what he actually said .

In other words , I see Andrea Leadsom has gone on Newsnight , and asked for broadcasters to be a bit more " patriotic "

Essentially , what she wants is for the govt to control the media . Something practiced in countries like Russia , North Korea , and Zimbabwe , those shining beacons of freedom and democracy

 

[PHILIPE]

I would have to ask what you mean by this statement

The man got a good reception , because of his appealing nature , and what he actually said .

In other words , I see Andrea Leadsom has gone on Newsnight , and asked for broadcasters to be a bit more " patriotic "

Essentially , what she wants is for the govt to control the media . Something practiced in countries like Russia , North Korea , and Zimbabwe , those shining beacons of freedom and democracy

The people who have been taken in by his attractive promises but are too young to fully understand politics as to how they can practically be delivered

 

[HSTEd]

The people who have been taken in by his attractive promises but are too young to fully understand politics as to how they can practically be delivered

There is nothing in his programme that is particularily undeliverable in economic terms, despite what various people say.
The extra proposed spending remains a tiny fraction of the ~£3500-4000 billion pounds that will be expended by the state over this parliament.

Indeed, we could replace the entire power grid with EC6 or APR1400 nuclear power reactors without significantly troubling the state finances.

Additionally borrowing money to fund public services is not actually a problem if the deficit is smaller than economic growth - so the primary aim should be to drive up GDP growth.

 

[AlterEgo]

The people who have been taken in by his attractive promises but are too young to fully understand politics as to how they can practically be delivered

= "Young people are stupid".

 

[PHILIPE]

There is nothing in his programme that is particularily undeliverable in economic terms, despite what various people say.
The extra proposed spending remains a tiny fraction of the ~£3500-4000 billion pounds that will be expended by the state over this parliament.

Indeed, we could replace the entire power grid with EC6 or APR1400 nuclear power reactors without significantly troubling the state finances.

Additionally borrowing money to fund public services is not actually a problem if the deficit is smaller than economic growth - so the primary aim should be to drive up GDP growth.

Personally, I've begun to admire Jeremy Corbyn in a way but would prefer it if he ditched McDonnell and formed a Shadow Cabinet in a more balanced way rather than from the hard left.

 

[sk688]

The people who have been taken in by his attractive promises but are too young to fully understand politics as to how they can practically be delivered

Slightly patronising , no ?

As AlterEgo said , this post is essentially saying young people are stupid

 

[EM2]

Actually got as great a reception from the young naive as if he had been performing on the stage.

20% of Glastonbury attendees are 45-65, and it's the favourite festival for over-50s:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/goodlife...-Glastonbury-goer.-Now-tell-us-their-age.html

Despite our youthful view of, arguably, the country's most famous festival, Glastonbury continually attracts a steady crowd of middle-aged, and older, festival goers.
A 2013 census from Festival Insights found that 20 per cent of festival attendees were aged 45-65, while 3 per cent were either under 16 or over 65. A recent survey from Staysure insurance revealed that Glastonbury was the number one festival of choice for those over 50, followed closely by the BBC Proms.

 

[PHILIPE]

Slightly patronising , no ?

As AlterEgo said , this post is essentially saying young people are stupid

I haven't said stupid. I said naive which, according to the dictionary means showing a lack of experience, wisdom, or judgement but not stupid.

 

[sk688]

I haven't said stupid. I said naive which, according to the dictionary means showing a lack of experience, wisdom, or judgement but not stupid.

The implication seemed clear though , that young people do not know much , so they vote for Corbyn

The reason he is getting such a great reception , is because he chimes with voters , he is honest and trustworthy , sticks to his principles ( both unlike TM ) , he is doing something to help young people , who as I mentioned in my earlier post , have been treated awfully by the Tories

The Tories did nothing to appeal to the youth , they just assumed they wouldn't vote , so Corbyn decided to appeal to them , and did get them to vote

People speak about getting young people involved in politics , then denounce them when they do


My apologies if I misunderstood your earlier post

 

[AlterEgo]

I haven't said stupid. I said naive which, according to the dictionary means showing a lack of experience, wisdom, or judgement but not stupid.

Excellent. I'm sure we will all be better off leaving decisions to you.

 

[GusB]

It always amuses me that people think that it's appropriate to pay a lesser wage based on someone's age. Do landlords charge a lower rent if someone is below a certain age? Most young people have to pay full-fare on public transport when they hit 16. The cost of living doesn't go down if you're young, so why should they be paid less?

The idea that younger people have less experience and therefore are less likely to be able to do a job properly is complete nonsense.

 

[najaB]

The idea that younger people have less experience and therefore are less likely to be able to do a job properly is complete nonsense.

How likely is it that a 17 year old has 15 years work experience?

 

[GusB]

How likely is it that a 17 year old has 15 years work experience?

Highly unlikely. However, the operation of a supermarket checkout, the stacking of shelves, or the production of fast-food does not require fifteen years work experience.

I've had a few jobs where I've been trained by people much younger than me. Why should they be paid less?

EDIT - I have also trained older people who took much more time to become competent because they weren't so quick to grasp the various IT systems. I remember one chap who had been a bank manager for 30-odd years and was "retired" due to rural branch closures. He was useless - and also my team manager!

 

[najaB]

Highly unlikely. However, the operation of a supermarket checkout, the stacking of shelves, or the production of fast-food does not require fifteen years work experience.

Indeed it doesn't. But in my previous job I probably trained something like two thousand people over the years, of varying ages 16 being the youngest through to early 50s.

I can't think of more than a half dozen times where the person who always had an excuse for not turning up on time was in the older bracket. Or where it was an older person making completely inappropriate jokes/comments, etc.

Don't get me wrong, the majority of the young people wanted to work and did so, but youth and immaturity seem to like hanging out together.

As an employer, the fact that a 16 year old is cheaper in terms of wages may well be the deciding factor in giving them a job.

 

[northwichcat]

I can't think of more than a half dozen times where the person who always had an excuse for not turning up on time was in the older bracket. Or where it was an older person making completely inappropriate jokes/comments, etc.

From the people I've worked with I'd say the older people who've been at the company longest are the ones who are likely to come up with a poor excuse for not being at work on time.

The younger ones does come up with reasons for being late but they are usually genuine. For example, more younger employees use public transport and they can't prevent a bus or train not running. Alternatively, if they drive and they've been in the role a few months they might genuinely not realise how much effect an accident on a road they don't travel on might have on their journey or how much extra traffic an annual event puts on the local roads.

Some actual excuses I'm aware older people have used for being late for work:
- Their dog was stung by a bee.
- A friend's cat died - used twice by the same woman!
- They had to drop their friend off at the airport and it took longer than they expected.
- They had a last minutes doctors appointment. (That seemed genuine until their wife phoned mid-morning and left a message saying she arranged an appointment at lunch time.)
- It was raining so they stopped to shelter from the rain.

Sometimes the employees who have been there longer are more complacent because they think the risk of them losing their jobs is lower.

As an employer, the fact that a 16 year old is cheaper in terms of wages may well be the deciding factor in giving them a job.

I think one of the disadvantages of the minimum wage is you might give the 16 year old a job when there's a 24 year old who could do the job just as well because you can get away with paying the 16 year old less.

Although, a problem with offering a 16 year old £10 an hour, is if you're currently paying a much more experienced 25 year old £11 an hour and they don't get a pay rise equivalent to the increase in the minimum wage they'll feel undervalued.

 

[najaB]

From the people I've worked with I'd say the older people who've been at the company longest are the ones who are likely to come up with a poor excuse for not being at work on time.

I don't disagree. I was specifically talking about new employees in training. It goes without saying that people who have been around longer will take more liberties.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I seems to me that the whole way the minimum wage functions needs to be looked at again.

When the minimum wage was first introduced, it served the function of providing a floor, protecting a small number of people who were previously on unusually, appallingly, low wages from being exploited. And it seems to me that that's what it really ought to be: A minimum floor preventing exploitation, in an employment market in which most people are in any case paid a lot more. In an ideal world, very few people would actually be being paid the minimum wage.

But over the years, the minimum wage has become instead the de-facto standard wage that everyone in any job not requiring specific high-level professional skills gets paid. I'm pretty certain that was never the original intention. I think the reasons why that's happened are complex, but mostly related to the housing shortage, to high unemployment, and to what seem to me to be fairly incompetent attempts by the Government in recent years to use the minimum wage as a sticking plaster - instead of sorting out the fundamental problems with the economy and the housing market.

In this context, raising the minimum wage to £10, and removing the age-based tapering for teenegers, while well meaning, is sadly likely to do more harm than good

 

[bramling]

Indeed it doesn't. But in my previous job I probably trained something like two thousand people over the years, of varying ages 16 being the youngest through to early 50s.

I can't think of more than a half dozen times where the person who always had an excuse for not turning up on time was in the older bracket. Or where it was an older person making completely inappropriate jokes/comments, etc.

Don't get me wrong, the majority of the young people wanted to work and did so, but youth and immaturity seem to like hanging out together.

Hmm. Thinking of a couple of workplaces known to me. I'd say that from early 20s onwards there's probably not a lot in it - it's more to do with the individual than age.

*However*, I can think of a few ex-apprentices who perhaps got into responsible jobs (e.g. train driving or signalling) a little early, and where their immaturity really showed up and caused quite a few problems. Examples of these problems are terrible attendance, a greater likelihood of having an operational incident, much greater propensity to incorrectly lay down the law (for example taking a train out of service for a spurious reason), greater likelihood of being involved in conflict situations with both passengers and other staff, and generally not being aware of their own limitations. I can think of a few examples who were constantly in and out of the office having to be dealt with over one issue or another.

I wouldn't say this applies to all teenagers, as there are some who are absolutely as good as gold in the workplace, however equally some can be very immature. By contrast, once people reach their early to mid 20s the balance tips firmly the other way in my experience.

In essence, based on my own experience, I would be rather wary of recruiting an 18-year-old train driver - even if they pass all the testing with flying colours.

 

[najaB]

Hmm. Thinking of a couple of workplaces known to me. I'd say that from early 20s onwards there's probably not a lot in it - it's more to do with the individual than age.

I'd say that pretty much matches my experience - speaking in general there was a marked difference between the 16/17 year olds and the 20/21 year olds.

That said, one of the best trainees I ever had was so young he took a couple of days off work during training to finish his exams.

 

[Groningen]

So according to Sky News: DUP leader Arlene Foster has signed a deal with the Prime Minister Theresa May to support a minority government.

 

[northwichcat]

So according to Sky News: DUP leader Arlene Foster has signed a deal with the Prime Minister Theresa May to support a minority government.

£1bn extra funding for Northern Ireland as part of the deal.

 

[AlterEgo]

£1bn extra funding for Northern Ireland as part of the deal.

NI is already the biggest welfare dependent of England.

Scotland won't be happy. Lots of ammo for Sturgeon now.

Sinn Fein have the option of refusing to sit in the Executive but I find this unlikely - the people of NI, and their voters, mainly want a return to normality.