Longest time/distance/difficulty expected to walk to make connection?

[Paul Kelly]

Yeovil Junction - Pen Mill is 50 minutes.

That's scheduled as a transfer, not a walk. The meaning of transfer in the schedule data provided to journey planners is rather vague but it generally means taxi, or using some motorised means of transport - definitely not a walk!

 

[Essan]

I remember once when travelling from Ipswich to Cheltenham I walked from LiverpooL St to Paddington ..... Think it took me about an hour

 

[yorkie]

I remember once when travelling from Ipswich to Cheltenham I walked from LiverpooL St to Paddington ..... Think it took me about an hour

You are a very quick walker!

 

[AlterEgo]

That's scheduled as a transfer, not a walk. The meaning of transfer in the schedule data provided to journey planners is rather vague but it generally means taxi, or using some motorised means of transport - definitely not a walk!

But the minimum transfer time is 50 minutes, which is the allowance for the walk of some 2.2 miles (Google puts that at 42 minutes).

Is there anywhere else that, when looking at a through ticket, a journey planner will suggest a transfer using a bus/boat/taxi at your own expense? The bus transfer is timed.

I think it's fairly clear that the 2021 Weymouth - connecting to Crewkerne has that 50min+ connection precisely to allow for a walk. While it's not an instruction to walk, I argue that's what it's designed for.

 

[Essan]

You are a very quick walker!

I am (or was!) - maybe it was a bit longer than that (t'was a long time ago)

I usually do Glasgow QS - Central in 5 minutes. And that's a normal pace .....

 

[duffield]

At King's Cross, TFL have it as 13 minutes to make the journey between the Victoria line platforms at King's Cross, and the MML/HS1 platforms there. Surely that's one of the longest walks to make a connection, within a station

I've done both MML to Victoria line platforms and MML to Picadilly Line platforms recently, I'm sure Picadilly took longer (deeper, more escalators/tunnels).

Regardless, they both suck. Rude people charging straight at you with heavy luggage etc. makes the walk seem interminable.

I try to use Thameslink from Bedford/Luton rather than cross London from St Pancras if at all possible, even if it takes longer. Much less stressful.

 

[takno]

I've done both MML to Victoria line platforms and MML to Picadilly Line platforms recently, I'm sure Picadilly took longer (deeper, more escalators/tunnels).

Regardless, they both suck. Rude people charging straight at you with heavy luggage etc. makes the walk seem interminable.

I try to use Thameslink from Bedford/Luton rather than cross London from St Pancras if at all possible, even if it takes longer. Much less stressful.

The Victoria should be the slowest to get to from St Pancras (see http://www.citymetric.com/transport...s-biggest-tube-station-seem-take-you-long-way for a map)

The walk from the front of Kings Cross is just as long if you actually follow the directions, since it takes you all the way up to the north concourse and back down again. Particularly annoying when people don't get out of the way even when you charge straight at them

 

[Hadders]

Is there anywhere else that, when looking at a through ticket, a journey planner will suggest a transfer using a bus/boat/taxi at your own expense? The bus transfer is timed.

There are tickets routed Tilbury & Gravesend that are intended to be used on via the ferry at your own expense.

 

[Ianno87]

There are tickets routed Tilbury & Gravesend that are intended to be used on via the ferry at your own expense.

As do cross-Manchester journeys requiring a Metrolink transfer that is not included with the ticket (i.e. most non-Greater Manchester journeys)

 

[Clansman]

Edinburgh Waverley platform 1 to 10

 

[Mugby]

Unlikely that many (or any) connections are made between the two but the walk between Gainsborough Central and Gainsborough Lea Road is pretty horrendous.

 

[yorkie]

But the minimum transfer time is 50 minutes, which is the allowance for the walk of some 2.2 miles (Google puts that at 42 minutes).

I agree there is sufficient time for the walk [for able bodied people who know where they are going], and I think the generous timing is to enable this option, but it is not officially a walk.

I think it's fairly clear that the 2021 Weymouth - connecting to Crewkerne has that 50min+ connection precisely to allow for a walk. While it's not an instruction to walk, I argue that's what it's designed for.

Agreed.

 

[edwin_m]

As do cross-Manchester journeys requiring a Metrolink transfer that is not included with the ticket (i.e. most non-Greater Manchester journeys)

Talking of Metrolink, the on-tram announcements recommend that passengers interchanging between the Didsbury/Airport and Altrincham routes do so at Cornbrook rather than Trafford Bar. Presumably by the time you've walked up the steps/ramp at the latter, out onto the street and back down the other side you'd have been quicker staying on the tram and just crossing the platform at Cornbrook.

 

[unlevel42]

OK I can understand the point you are making now.

I don't quite follow the Tamworth example though; this is out of the way for Sheffield to Bangor. But it could be an option for other journeys.

Do you have examples of when this is the case? I did some random searches using fastjp.com and couldn't find any examples of this.


Very possibly there should be some sort of warning...

However it is subjective; where do you draw the line?

Historically Tamworth was always the best for journey times if a connection was available. This would change against from year to year but Saturday morning connections were always good.
The advent of Stockport/Crewe and later Stockport/Chester connections and the lack of Tamworth to North Wales trains have tipped the balance against Tamworth. Guards would rarely question the Tamworth route but when I pointed out that the Derby to Crewe option was then valid, all was OK.

Most Saturday morning routes are via Warrington stations according to the Northern site.

Warnings are shown for long connection times and bustitutions.

Where to "...draw the line." is the question.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

That's scheduled as a transfer, not a walk. The meaning of transfer in the schedule data provided to journey planners is rather vague but it generally means taxi, or using some motorised means of transport - definitely not a walk!

On that basis, any link by alternative modes between any two stations could be offered as a 'transfer'. There has to be a limit somewhere.

Multiple mode journey itineraries are offered by the 'Traveline' sites. Lord help those who place their trust in them.

Rail journey planners should stick to offering rail journeys and their legitimate add-ons e.g. through ticketing. All journey legs offered should come under NRCOC including compensation / alternative arrangements for missed connections etc.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Connections are advertised on the route between Sheffield and North Wales at Warrington on the Northern site.
On another planner a 14 minute walk across a town centre is indicated between Central and Bank Quay.
At what point is walking time/distance/difficulty considered too much?

Is the line 'leaving railway premises, using public highway, re-entering different railway premises'?

I know there are many stations where this is necessary to reach the other platform but I am referring to re-entering at a station with a different name, somewhere down the road e.g. Wigan.

Is there a public list of interchanges where the passenger is expected to make alternative arrangements, at their own expense (or shoe leather) rather than remaining on railway premises throughout their journey?

If people choose to walk between two stations, to shorten their journey time, then that should be their choice. It should not be forced on a passenger. Nor should it be assumed that a passenger is either willing, or able, to walk any distance further than a distance similar to that from train to station entrance or between platforms within a station (for which assistance may well be available in terms of buggies, staff or luggage trolleys). I can't imagine walking between Glasgow Central and Queen Street, pushing my suitcases on a station luggage trolley, but perhaps some people have done so!

It may be that a walk is a better option compared to a much longer trip to an interchange and back again. For example, where two lines come close together but don't actually connect until later (Caterham / East Grinstead lines) or two lines cross at right angles without an interchange station (Edenbridge or Dorking). The time saving may be considerable but it should be an option, not compulsory. However I think it would be legitimate to have an 'all-rail fare' and a cheaper 'walk interchange fare'.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Suggests a 50 minute cycle ride.Surely theres a bus company out there who would be happy running a service between the two.Ive only ever been to Yeovil Junction,and that only once many years ago.

Hell of a long way if you have much luggage.Bet the local taxi drivers are making a few quid

I have done the walk between the Yeovil stations, many years ago. I recall Pen Mill into town is OK but town to Junction is country lane with no footway. At the time there was an infrequent bus link and, at the specific time I was travelling, the driver offered to drop me in town then pick me up again some time later to continue on to the Junction.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

As do cross-Manchester journeys requiring a Metrolink transfer that is not included with the ticket (i.e. most non-Greater Manchester journeys)

Offering a Manchester Victoria to Piccadilly connection via Metrolink - without actually saying that this is not included in the fare advertised on the same page is not acceptable. If any JP is to offer such journeys, it should add in the fare for the connecting tram/bus or make very prominent the fact that there is an additional cost involved. I haven't looked for a while but in the past I have had Metrolink offered as part of an itinerary, and on other occasions have had journeys offered out to Salford Crescent and back.

Will be resolved soon anyway with the new Ordsall Chord.

 

[yorkie]

On that basis, any link by alternative modes between any two stations could be offered as a 'transfer'. There has to be a limit somewhere.

Fixed link transfers are defined in the data. If you want to know what fixed links are available from any station, go to www.brtimes.com

Rail journey planners should stick to offering rail journeys and their legitimate add-ons .....

They will comply with what the data feeds and rules require them to do.

Offering a Manchester Victoria to Piccadilly connection via Metrolink - without actually saying that this is not included in the fare advertised on the same page is not acceptable...

True, it isn't acceptable.

In general you can get Metrolink validity not just for free, but for a lower overall price, by "splitting" at a station in Greater Manchester.

It's a crazy situation.

 

[infobleep]

OK I can understand the point you are making now.

I don't quite follow the Tamworth example though; this is out of the way for Sheffield to Bangor. But it could be an option for other journeys.

Do you have examples of when this is the case? I did some random searches using fastjp.com and couldn't find any examples of this.

I only know of one website that has a box you can untick to avoid such walks, and that is TrainSplit v2 (Trainscanbecheaper is effectively the same site but without splitting), but if anyone knows of any others, feel free to reply below!

I don't think booking engines take into account 'difficulty' of transfer; they generally look at the fastest route, which is obtained by timetable and fixed link data. Some booking engines will offer slower itineraries that include fewer interchanges.

I found a better example (but if anyone can identify other good examples, please do feel free to contribute):

Urmston to Runcorn East.

I searched for Tuesday 12 September after 1200, but the same principle applies at other times.

The following itineraries are possible:

Urmston 1222
Manchester Oxford Road 1234

(cross platform connection)

Manchester Oxford Road 1239
Manchester Piccadilly 1241

(cross platform connection)

Manchester Piccadilly 1252
Runcorn East 1333
​

OR

Urmston 1224
Warrington Central 1245

(walk for 0.7 miles)

Warrington Bank Quay 1326
Runcorn East 1333
​

I believe many people would prefer the cross-platform interchange option via Manchester. It's clearly permitted via Manchester as the shortest route by rail is via Manchester Group (and doubling back between Deansgate and Piccadilly is absolutely permitted by the Group Stations rule), although Atos WebTIS powered sites won't offer any itineraries via Manchester, even when 'via Manchester' is specified.

Traingenuis also won't offer an itinerary via Manchester (I'll get this reported to the creators as I know they use this forum)

National Rail Enquiries will - correctly - give an itinerary via Manchester, but only if you explicitly specify via Manchester.

The GTR websites (powered by On Track Retail) will also correctly offer itineraries via Manchester, but again only if you specify via Manchester.

Trainsplit v2 will offer itineraries via Manchester if you go to Advanced options and untick "Walk". This doesn't require geographical knowledge of the railway to use. Edit: I'm not sure why I didn't spot this before, but in "Popular" mode it actually finds these itineraries automatically!

Perhaps an 'avoid walks' option should be easier to spot? I'll feed it back by posting in the Trainsplit v2 thread.
Very possibly there should be some sort of warning...

However it is subjective; where do you draw the line?

I know I've said this before, but the distance between Wigan Stations (Wallgate <> North Western) is arguably shorter than the distance between some platforms within Manchester Piccadilly (which does not count as a "walk"!)

During the Olympics, TfL produced walking maps. These only covered a tedious 20 minutes. So maybe 20 minutes is a fair time to walk.

Personally I can walk for longer than that and wouldn't have objected to maps that covered a wider radius of minutes.

 

[delticdave]

There are tickets routed Tilbury & Gravesend that are intended to be used on via the ferry at your own expense.

The connecting bus from Tilbury Town to the ferry landing stage is free for rail ticket holders, but the the ferry has a new operator & I don't know if they will accept a through routed train ticket.

 

[unlevel42]

During the Olympics, TfL produced walking maps. These only covered a tedious 20 minutes. So maybe 20 minutes is a fair time to walk.

Personally I can walk for longer than that and wouldn't have objected to maps that covered a wider radius of minutes.

Still in use by me. Should be reprinted. Are they?

 

[6Gman]

Connections are advertised on the route between Sheffield and North Wales at Warrington on the Northern site.
On another planner a 14 minute walk across a town centre is indicated between Central and Bank Quay.
At what point is walking time/distance/difficulty considered too much?

14 minutes seems a tad optimistic to me.

 

[Mugby]

14 minutes seems a tad optimistic to me.

I think so too. Minutes tick away as you wait to cross roads outside Central and I'd go along the top edge of the bus station, then turn left down the street which passes the back of the shopping centre car park, to the bottom then turn right along the street which brings you out just above Bank Quay. Wait again to cross that road and enter the station.

14 minutes would be very tight indeed!

 

[Hadders]

The connecting bus from Tilbury Town to the ferry landing stage is free for rail ticket holders, but the the ferry has a new operator & I don't know if they will accept a through routed train ticket.

I think it used to be routed 'Tilbury Excl Ferry', the intention being to indicate that the price of the ferry was not included. This was changed to 'Tilbury Gravesend' in response to an alternative interpretation, used successfully by at least one forum member, that because the ticket specifically excluded the ferry was valid via other permitted routes that passed through Tilbury

It could be argued that 'Tilbury Gravesend' is even more ambiguous.

 

[xotGD]

Back in the day, I interchanged between North Woolwich and Woolwich via the foot tunnel.

I guess there are some itineraries that involve a cross-Pontefract connection.

And perhaps Settle to Giggleswick.

 

[edwin_m]

Nottingham to Glasgow that I mentioned earlier can be done with a walk across Newark as an alternative to walking across Warrington.

 

[70014IronDuke]

A cycle ride? The itinerary suggests a walk.

There is a bus at most times of the day - check the link for examples.

I don't think Junction - Pen Mill interchanges are that common; I'd be surprised if more than a dozen passengers did it per day.

Maybe there is only a dozen, but it's a case of chicken, meet egg. The Weymouth line service is so infrequent most of the day that only hard-core traveller types take this journey on, I'd suggest - because if you miss a connection at Pen Mill you will probably have at least a two-hour wait, often more.