New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[HH]

Good that he's an engineer too, with the bulk of changes in the first few years going to be to the train fleet...

I'm not sure. Engineering Directors can struggle as MDs - they may not understand the other departments very well and they're a bit like accountants - not people people. I'm not as impressed with AM as others appear to be (as a Director); time will tell.

 

[3141]

That depends, it could be that it is better to move them quietly now, get one ready (external) for the launch of the franchise and then make a big thing of the work being done when the press can be shown around the inside of one.

How do you move eighteen trains "quietly"?

 

[The Ham]

How do you move eighteen trains "quietly"?

With no press release, as I was responding to a post about there not being the companies involved shouting about it.

 

[Pumbaa]

I'm not sure. Engineering Directors can struggle as MDs - they may not understand the other departments very well and they're a bit like accountants - not people people. I'm not as impressed with AM as others appear to be (as a Director); time will tell.

Agreed. Look what happened the last time an engineer took charge on the South Western.

One could also argue that the current SW operation has possibly some of the best fleet expertise going, and that really shouldn't be an area of concern for the new overlords.

 

[43096]

I'm not sure. Engineering Directors can struggle as MDs - they may not understand the other departments very well and they're a bit like accountants - not people people. I'm not as impressed with AM as others appear to be (as a Director); time will tell.

Obviously you are not a people person, either.

A sweeping generalisation about not one, but two, groups of people suggests to me that you don't understand the skills required for those roles. I've met plenty of engineering and finance people who have very strong people skills - you really cannot generalise.

 

[HH]

Obviously you are not a people person, either.

A sweeping generalisation about not one, but two, groups of people suggests to me that you don't understand the skills required for those roles. I've met plenty of engineering and finance people who have very strong people skills - you really cannot generalise.

Actually you can. That's not to say that there aren't engineers or accountants with strong people skills; of course there are. And I understand the skills needed very well; you must have some people skills to rise to the top in any department.

Still, I wouldn't call Ben Caswell (GWR FD) a people person and when I've seen AM in meetings he didn't strike me as having people skills at the same level as, say Mark Hopwood or Andrew Haines.

 

[3141]

With no press release, as I was responding to a post about there not being the companies involved shouting about it.

Point taken, but the trains have to arrive somewhere, which is likely to reveal something about who else is involved.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Obviously you are not a people person, either.

A sweeping generalisation about not one, but two, groups of people suggests to me that you don't understand the skills required for those roles. I've met plenty of engineering and finance people who have very strong people skills - you really cannot generalise.

Greater Anglia have gone the other way which considering their is a full fleet replacement going on raised a few eyebrows. Pretty much the whole top team at the company is either been in the industry a short while or from finance, sales and bid management roles, there is precious little engineering knowledge at least at a director level, let alone managing an introduction of so much rolling stock.

Even the engineering director is only in the industry a short time having come over from the Aircraft industry whilst the project director's history is with bidding like the MD who himself has only been in the industry a few years so it doesn't exactly fill you confidence, especially when they've been avoiding questions on the whole new train situation.

Realistically you need a mixture of people to make a good team for the challenges at hand, you need people people, you need accountants and you need those with operational and engineering experience, that is something that FGE did very well, they they had a good mix of experienced people such as Bob Breakwell and people with long backgrounds in the industry, good communicators and operational experts like Dave Kaye.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Apart from having any carpets and seat upholstery replaced in the corporate colours of the new franchise, will any of the existing stock that's staying be getting an internal refurbishment?

will fully refurbish trains to the London-Portsmouth route to an as-new standard

I'm assuming that the 442s will get a refurb to the standard of the 456s

 

[Mordac]

I think the 15xs are getting some interior changes done (USB sockets fitted, etc)

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Apart from having any carpets and seat upholstery replaced in the corporate colours of the new franchise, will any of the existing stock that's staying be getting an internal refurbishment?



I'm assuming that the 442s will get a refurb to the standard of the 456s

I hope not, I hope that the seats will be like they used to be when new, which is quite soft and comfy and hopefully the provision of USB & "Mains" style sockets as well.

 

[bb21]

I don't know why the refurb of 442s is compared to that of 456s. Suburban layout for a regional journey - that will go down well.

 

[fgwrich]

I hope not, I hope that the seats will be like they used to be when new, which is quite soft and comfy and hopefully the provision of USB & "Mains" style sockets as well.

I'm not sure if your aware but those seas went a long time ago, and not just on the mainline. When the 442s were refurbished by Southern for Gat Ex, all the seats were replaced with Chapman seats for Standard and Primarus for FC. So a replacement of those Horrid things would be perfect, ideally with the same seats as the GW HSTs with the power socket in the middle. The 159s would also benifit well from these too, it's time to stop being nostalgic with these.

 

[HH]

Greater Anglia have gone the other way which considering their is a full fleet replacement going on raised a few eyebrows. Pretty much the whole top team at the company is either been in the industry a short while or from finance, sales and bid management roles, there is precious little engineering knowledge at least at a director level, let alone managing an introduction of so much rolling stock.

Even the engineering director is only in the industry a short time having come over from the Aircraft industry whilst the project director's history is with bidding like the MD who himself has only been in the industry a few years so it doesn't exactly fill you confidence, especially when they've been avoiding questions on the whole new train situation.

IIRC Jamie Burles was Commercial Director at Northern before he did bidding. And bidding teaches you a lot about Rail if you keep your eyes and ears open and have an enquiring mind; I think Jamie fits that bill. Still, his reputation will be made, for good or bad, on what happens this franchise.

Not so sure about his number two and I would agree that there is a bit of a worrying lack of Rail Engineering expertise in the top team. Possibly though, rail could learn something from the aviation industry? I've found that skills are transferable from one mode of transport to another - providing that you also have people with experience to advise on the differences.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Jamie himself is not an issue, I don't see the issue with the GA team being individuals itself, as you allude to Jamie does fit that particular bill from his time in Northern so would have good experience there.

The number two, also the project director was also a bid director in the past and a business development director, Operations director was previously head of business development, for me it's a little bit samey and ideally in my book at least, you'd want a mix of skills, so if a MD had great engineering skills and operational skills, you'd want a deputy or a senior director who had commercial and accountancy skills.

The lack of a real operational or engineering or fleet transformation expertise in the senior leadership team is not ideal, but if you had a real strong railwayman as an engineering director with a lot of input it wouldn't be so much of an issue, but if you add to that an engineering director who is relatively new to the industry, then that has to be a worry.

With that being the case it would be prudent for Abellio to somewhat involve a senior member of the engineering team who is not a director, in the project team alongside the ED, especially if said team member has experience in rolling out new rolling stock, since their experience would be valuable, since however good the ED is, experience in a project this size is going to be valuable.

Personally I'd have went out and got a good experienced ED if I didn't have a senior leadership director with such experience for such a project though, because like you say, Abellio will live and die by how this goes and if it does go wrong it could go spectacularly wrong.

 

[Bigfoot]

Apart from having any carpets and seat upholstery replaced in the corporate colours of the new franchise, will any of the existing stock that's staying be getting an internal refurbishment?



I'm assuming that the 442s will get a refurb to the standard of the 456s

Much rumors from various people about the desiro fleet having guards offices removed, the 444s finally losing the buffet and 450s having some kind of first class move, possibly similar in configuration as the 458s ie each end or perhaps just one end like a 444. The last one is the mostly wibbly of the rumours I have heard.

Plus the power points at all seats. Probably usb over 3pin.

 

[IanXC]

I don't know why the refurb of 442s is compared to that of 456s. Suburban layout for a regional journey - that will go down well.

I read it as being reference to how thorough the refurb should be, rather than being a carbon copy of the 456 project.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I read it as being reference to how through the refurb should be, rather than being a carbon copy of the 456 project.

When the 456s were refurbed, your average passenger would have probably thought that they were brand new trains. If the 442s are done to the same quality (but in express/intercity setup), your average passenger will hopefully think that they're brand new trains

 

[HH]

Jamie himself is not an issue, I don't see the issue with the GA team being individuals itself, as you allude to Jamie does fit that particular bill from his time in Northern so would have good experience there.

The number two, also the project director was also a bid director in the past and a business development director, Operations director was previously head of business development, for me it's a little bit samey and ideally in my book at least, you'd want a mix of skills, so if a MD had great engineering skills and operational skills, you'd want a deputy or a senior director who had commercial and accountancy skills.

The lack of a real operational or engineering or fleet transformation expertise in the senior leadership team is not ideal, but if you had a real strong railwayman as an engineering director with a lot of input it wouldn't be so much of an issue, but if you add to that an engineering director who is relatively new to the industry, then that has to be a worry.

With that being the case it would be prudent for Abellio to somewhat involve a senior member of the engineering team who is not a director, in the project team alongside the ED, especially if said team member has experience in rolling out new rolling stock, since their experience would be valuable, since however good the ED is, experience in a project this size is going to be valuable.

Personally I'd have went out and got a good experienced ED if I didn't have a senior leadership director with such experience for such a project though, because like you say, Abellio will live and die by how this goes and if it does go wrong it could go spectacularly wrong.

I agree with your points. Abellio may have retained the advice of a former Engineering Director - I know he was advising them previously. If not, they can call on help from their other TOCs and even NS. Whether they will do so I don't know.

Operations may actually be a bigger issue. There seems a worrying lack of skills throughout the industry these days, so an inexperienced Director may really struggle.

 

[The Ham]

Much rumors from various people about the desiro fleet having guards offices removed, the 444s finally losing the buffet and 450s having some kind of first class move, possibly similar in configuration as the 458s ie each end or perhaps just one end like a 444. The last one is the mostly wibbly of the rumours I have heard.

Plus the power points at all seats. Probably usb over 3pin.

The removal of the buffets makes sense, it would provide something like 12 to 16 seats (3 or 4 rows of four seats (24 to 32 seats on a 10 coach train).

Removing the guard offices would add something 4 seats, so less clear cut (8 or 12 per 10 or 12 coach trains).

I'm not sure that changing first class in the 450's would bring much benefit, during the rush hour the first class seats can be fairly well used and so a reduction could cause problems. However I also don't think that it would add many standard class seats even if there was a change. In terms of passenger use it being at the end rather than the middle would be more of an annoyance as the 450's appear to be more likely to turn to either way around than the 444's.

 

[AlexNL]

Abellio may have retained the advice of a former Engineering Director - I know he was advising them previously. If not, they can call on help from their other TOCs and even NS. Whether they will do so I don't know.

There is a lot of experience within the Abellio Group when it comes to introduction of new rolling stock, as Abellio Germany have been involved with the Stadler FLIRTs now running between Gouda and Alphen a/d Rijn, as well as the cross-border regional train running between Arnhem and Düsseldorf (which are tricurrent).

Abellio GA can call on the people who managed that, if needed.

 

[bb21]

I read it as being reference to how thorough the refurb should be, rather than being a carbon copy of the 456 project.

Then that point should have been made clearer.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Much rumors from various people about the desiro fleet having guards offices removed, the 444s finally losing the buffet and 450s having some kind of first class move, possibly similar in configuration as the 458s ie each end or perhaps just one end like a 444. The last one is the mostly wibbly of the rumours I have heard.

@any SWTs guards who sign the 444s/450s - do the guard's offices get used much?

With the buffet area, isn't that where the trolley service trolley gets kept?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

The removal of the buffets makes sense, it would provide something like 12 to 16 seats (3 or 4 rows of four seats (24 to 32 seats on a 10 coach train).

Removing the guard offices would add something 4 seats, so less clear cut (8 or 12 per 10 or 12 coach trains).

I'm not sure that changing first class in the 450's would bring much benefit, during the rush hour the first class seats can be fairly well used and so a reduction could cause problems. However I also don't think that it would add many standard class seats even if there was a change. In terms of passenger use it being at the end rather than the middle would be more of an annoyance as the 450's appear to be more likely to turn to either way around than the 444's.

That should be retained as it's where the bike space is and some of the traction control equipment is located. And guards offices are used quite often by guards and other crew travelling pass.

 

[3141]

That should be retained as it's where the bike space is and some of the traction control equipment is located. And guards offices are used quite often by guards and other crew travelling pass.

The guard's office has the advantage that passengers can see where the guard is, if they need him. On 159s the guard often retires to the rear cab. OK if you know about that, but otherwise you'd have some difficulty finding him.

 

[Pumbaa]

The Guards offices badly need to come out. Good idea in theory, but a waste of space in practice.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

and some of the traction control equipment is located.

Could that equipment be relocated elsewhere?

 

[bramling]

The Guards offices badly need to come out. Good idea in theory, but a waste of space in practice.

Agreed. In an ideal world it's a great idea, but unfortunately with overcrowding as it is they're simply not an efficient use of space -- especially having three of them on a 12-car train.

 

[greaterwest]

Agreed. In an ideal world it's a great idea, but unfortunately with overcrowding as it is they're simply not an efficient use of space -- especially having three of them on a 12-car train.

Yes, let's remove the guards offices so they will instead retreat to a (middle/intermediate/rear, cross out as required) cab instead where they can't be found easily, as said above.

Removing the guards offices is a silly idea, you're going to get no more than 4 seats by doing so (on a 450 you won't be able to fit in a bay of 6 because you'll obstruct the first class door, and on a 444 there are only 2+2 seats anyway!)

I don't see what there is to gain.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes, let's remove the guards offices so they will instead retreat to a (middle/intermediate/rear, cross out as required) cab instead where they can't be found easily, as said above.

Removing the guards offices is a silly idea, you're going to get no more than 4 seats by doing so (on a 450 you won't be able to fit in a bay of 6 because you'll obstruct the first class door, and on a 444 there are only 2+2 seats anyway!)

I don't see what there is to gain.

This is probably exactly why the seating alterations to the 444s shown in the 2007 franchise agreement (but subsequently re-dacted) were never carried out. Someone probably re-did the BCR and found it wasn't worth the hassle after all...