Campaign to restore passenger services on the Middlewich Link Line

[The Planner]

All depends on what is decided for Crewe, don't agree with the Nantwich idea with the current Crewe layout though.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

This has been shared on Twitter. Northwich to Crewe with calls at Sandbach and Middlewich was possible in 23 minutes under L&NW on a service between Manchester Oxford Road and London Euston via Old Trafford, Northwich and Birmingham!

Two hours to get from Birmingham to Crewe??? Clearly there are some things that have improved! And those restrictions on who can get on where depending where they're getting off and the need to tell someone if you're getting on at certain stations makes today's ticketing rules sound positively simple!

I'm not sure that having one train a day that gets into London after the only through return train has left would go down well in today's World (note that the later train from London is change at Crewe). Wonder how long ago that timetable was from?

 

[northwichcat]

Two hours to get from Birmingham to Crewe??? Clearly there are some things that have improved! And those restrictions on who can get on where depending where they're getting off and the need to tell someone if you're getting on at certain stations makes today's ticketing rules sound positively simple!

I'm not sure that having one train a day that gets into London after the only through return train has left would go down well in today's World (note that the later train from London is change at Crewe). Wonder how long ago that timetable was from?

I don't know but L & NW is mentioned which ceased to exist in 1923, while Sale & Ashton on Mersey station is mentioned which became Sale in 1931. So it looks like it ones of those ones which was used to prove from Mid-Cheshire stations you could get to Manchester faster in the past by steam train than you can currently using a Pacer/Sprinter. I doubt at that time there were any day trips from the North West to London!

 

[Greybeard33]

Two hours to get from Birmingham to Crewe??? Clearly there are some things that have improved! And those restrictions on who can get on where depending where they're getting off and the need to tell someone if you're getting on at certain stations makes today's ticketing rules sound positively simple!

Pre-Grouping, the CLC line through Northwich was owned jointly by the LNW's arch rivals the Midland, GC & GN. So I imagine there were some tricky negotiations over the running rights for this service!

 

[kjhskj75]

Pre-Grouping, the CLC line through Northwich was owned jointly by the LNW's arch rivals the Midland, GC & GN. So I imagine there were some tricky negotiations over the running rights for this service!

Which presumably explains the picking-up/setting-down restrictions at Hale.

The LNWR had running powers between Hartford and Altrincham.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Which presumably explains the picking-up/setting-down restrictions at Hale.

The LNWR had running powers between Hartford and Altrincham.

That sounds plausible. The timetable makes very interesting reading. I can't help thinking that it gives some clues that today's railway is perhaps not so bad compared to 90 or so years ago! I wonder what the frequency of local services was on the Middlewich line then. I very much hope the line does reopen to regular passenger traffic, and I strongly suspect that if/when it does (I'm sure it will eventually even if, pessimistically, it's not for another 50 years or so) the service on it will be vastly better than the service before it closed!

I'm also intrigued that according to the old timetable, staying on the direct train meant a 3 and a half hour journey from London to Crewe - against 1 hour 40 minutes today (or 2 and a half hours via Birmingham). Granted speeds are now faster, but that seems an extraordinarily large difference. I wonder if people in those days could in fact get to London faster by changing at Crewe.

 

[miami]

Which presumably explains the picking-up/setting-down restrictions at Hale.

The LNWR had running powers between Hartford and Altrincham.

Yes, very confusing, you could do Altrincham->Crewe, or Knutsford->Crewe, but not Hale->Crewe!

I love the idea of a direct train from London to Brooklands though. In reality a change at Picadilly is not only faster, but 3 trains an hour rather than 3 trains a day means a far better journey.

 

[daodao]

Wonder how long ago that timetable was from?

I think it is the same timetable as (or very similar to) the timetable in the April 1910 Bradshaw guide - I have a reprint published by David & Charles in the mid 1960s.

Long-distance trains were far fewer then and took longer, but the service from Liverpool to Manchester was excellent - several fast trains each hour (albeit by different routes) taking 40-45 minutes - and at least as good as today.

 

[no commute yet]

What did people think of the article about us in the latest edition of RAIL?

 

[Mordac]

What did people think of the article about us in the latest edition of RAIL?

I thought the Manchester Airport connection was a dream too far, but other than that it seemed pretty good. If even half of the onward connections mentioned there end up working it'd be a worthwhile scheme.

Didn't see any mention of the BCR for the updated singing and dancing scheme, so that worries me a bit. Also calling it a Mini-HS3 may be slightly overselling it.

 

[no commute yet]

Looks like Knutsford will be reclassified as C2. Passenger numbers are up at Northwich and Altrincham too

 

[northwichcat]

Looks like Knutsford will be reclassified as C2. Passenger numbers are up at Northwich and Altrincham too

Won't happen until DfT decide to update the categories and they seem to do that as and when they feel like it rather than on a regular basis. However, presuming passenger numbers don't fall at Knutsford it will become C2 the next time they update the categories.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thought the Manchester Airport connection was a dream too far, but other than that it seemed pretty good. If even half of the onward connections mentioned there end up working it'd be a worthwhile scheme.

Like I've said before a potential western Airport link would only be built if there is no more capacity between the Airport and Piccadilly and there is demand for more services. The Airport said it wouldn't still be required due to HS2 in their draft development plan but revised that statement in their final development plan to say something along the lines of the link would have to add wider benefits to be able to be justified.

 

[Philip]

With the frequency of semi-fast services between Chester and Manchester doubling from next year, as well as the new Greenbank-Manchester service starting, I wonder whether the existing Chester-Manchester stopping service via Northwich could be put to better use? Would it be worth reopening Middlewich Station and diverting the current Mid-Cheshire stopper into Crewe, with calls at Middlewich and Sandbach? The saving on the journey time would of course free up DMUs which could be used to ensure all of the Greenbank services run with at least 4 coaches.

Would the towns at the western end of the Mid-Cheshire line benefit more from a new, quick and direct service to Middlewich, Sandbach and Crewe? Also remember that it may be quicker for passengers at the western end to make a change at Chester for Manchester, rather than use the current tortuous direct service.

It's also pretty shambolic that a town the size of Middlewich doesn't have a rail service, despite the track being there and operational.

 

[northwichcat]

With the frequency of semi-fast services between Chester and Manchester doubling from next year, as well as the new Greenbank-Manchester service starting, I wonder whether the existing Chester-Manchester stopping service via Northwich could be put to better use? Would it be worth reopening Middlewich Station and diverting the current Mid-Cheshire stopper into Crewe, with calls at Middlewich and Sandbach? The saving on the journey time would of course free up DMUs which could be used to ensure all of the Greenbank services run with at least 4 coaches.

Would the towns at the western end of the Mid-Cheshire line benefit more from a new, quick and direct service to Middlewich, Sandbach and Crewe? Also remember that it may be quicker for passengers at the western end to make a change at Chester for Manchester, rather than use the current tortuous direct service.

It's also pretty shambolic that a town the size of Middlewich doesn't have a rail service, despite the track being there and operational.

I'm not sure you understand the plans for Mid-Cheshire changes (which have been delayed until May 2018 despite being specified from December 2017 in the franchise agreement.)

At off-peak times the plan is to speed up the Chester to Manchester via Altrincham services by missing out some stations and an additional Greenbank to Manchester service providing a much needed additional train between the Northwich area and Manchester and picking up the stations the Chester to Manchester trains will no longer call at.

There will be no additional services towards Stockport in the morning peak or away from Stockport in the evening peak but the existing Stockport will be extended to Manchester and there will be 2tph in the 'counter peak flow direction' which is actually even busier than the 'peak flow direction.'

If you start re-routing the Chester service via a much longer route then stations like Stockport and Altrincham will no longer have a service which gets to Chester in a reasonable journey time and Delamere Forest and other villages will be left without a service at all.

 

[northwichcat]

Some updates on this - Cheshire & Warrington LEP are working on a proposal to reopen the line and include stations at Middlewich and Gadbrook Park which they estimate will cost around £5m. While new Tatton MP Esther McVey will be discussing the possible reopening of the line with Paul Maynard in August, along with other rail related issues in Cheshire.

 

[frodshamfella]

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but as its in the same sort of area, the line which links the Mid Cheshire Line to WCML before Acton Bridge, surely this would be a very useful piece of line to have a passenger service over now.

Thinking of links to Warrington, Runcorn, Liverpool.

 

[theshillito]

Also worth mentioning is that Virgin Trains services to/from Holyhead are diverted through Sandbach, Middlewich and Greenbank this weekend, both Saturday and Sunday this time. Arriva services are replaced with a bus between Crewe and Chester, both take roughly the same amount of time due to the slow speed limit through Middlewich. I plan to be on at least one of these trains.

Saturday will also feature a Virgin train waiting in the passing loop for another to pass.

 

[Philip]

This thread is not the place for the Middlewhich debate again!

Yes it would probably have the best BCR out there but there appears to be a lack of political support (and much much more for things like HS2, Metrolink extensions and 'Northern Powerhouse Rail'). The line is painfully slow and the service is now comitted to run to Greenbank (Chester at peak times) and not Middlewhich. Winsford is very close to the town, and Sandbach station (in Elworth) not much further.

Going to Winsford and Sandbach will be ok for some people, but what about those who don't drive?

 

[northwichcat]

Going to Winsford and Sandbach will be ok for some people, but what about those who don't drive?

There is a bus but obviously that can cause a problem if the train arrives back late and the last bus has already left, as unlike for a train only journey the TOC isn't responsible for getting to home if you miss the connecting bus home.

 

[Philip]

I'm not sure you understand the plans for Mid-Cheshire changes (which have been delayed until May 2018 despite being specified from December 2017 in the franchise agreement.)

At off-peak times the plan is to speed up the Chester to Manchester via Altrincham services by missing out some stations and an additional Greenbank to Manchester service providing a much needed additional train between the Northwich area and Manchester and picking up the stations the Chester to Manchester trains will no longer call at.

There will be no additional services towards Stockport in the morning peak or away from Stockport in the evening peak but the existing Stockport will be extended to Manchester and there will be 2tph in the 'counter peak flow direction' which is actually even busier than the 'peak flow direction.'

If you start re-routing the Chester service via a much longer route then stations like Stockport and Altrincham will no longer have a service which gets to Chester in a reasonable journey time and Delamere Forest and other villages will be left without a service at all.

I know about the plans for the Mid-Cheshire line and I'm not suggesting to reduce the number of services on it, just to restructure. Regarding your point about Stockport; I'm sure most passengers will continue to change at Piccadilly as they do now. The Chester service may be speeded up a bit, but it'll still be slow and quicker going via Warrington; the line speed is a big stumbling block. Is there really huge demand for direct services between Manchester/Stockport and Cuddington, Delamere and Mouldsworth (considering they can change at Chester or Greenbank)?

This is very much a local service, with its aim being to provide good links between towns and villages across West and South Cheshire and so I think a new direct train link between Northwich, Middlewich, Sandbach and Crewe would thrive.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but as its in the same sort of area, the line which links the Mid Cheshire Line to WCML before Acton Bridge, surely this would be a very useful piece of line to have a passenger service over now.

Thinking of links to Warrington, Runcorn, Liverpool.

Maybe an option to be considered could be joining up the Lime Street to Bank Quay stopper and the future Greenbank to Manchester stopper using a 769 Flex?

 

[northwichcat]

I know about the plans for the Mid-Cheshire line and I'm not suggesting to reduce the number of services on it, just to restructure. Regarding your point about Stockport; I'm sure most passengers will continue to change at Piccadilly as they do now.

Currently most passengers from Chester/The Wirral heading towards Sheffield/South Yorkshire use the Northern service between Chester and Stockport because the Mid-Cheshire services are well timed to connect with South TPE (eastbound) and Norwich to Liverpool (westbound) while the ATW service offers very poor connections with Sheffield services at Piccadilly.

The Chester service may be speeded up a bit, but it'll still be slow and quicker going via Warrington; the line speed is a big stumbling block. Is there really huge demand for direct services between Manchester/Stockport and Cuddington, Delamere and Mouldsworth (considering they can change at Chester or Greenbank)?

It's not the line speed that's the stumbling block - Chester to Warrington to Manchester doesn't exactly have very fast trains - it's the indirect route especially with the services no longer being able to run via Sale.

Chester to Manchester via Warrington almost takes as long as Cuddington to Manchester. Considering Cuddington is 25 minutes from Chester and Chester to Manchester trains will only be half-hourly even after the Northern Connect service starts, travelling via Chester could almost double the journey time.

However, instead of trying to claim people aren't making journeys which they are, can you clarify your idea.

If you start with:
Greenbank-Manchester stopper
Chester-Altrincham-Manchester semi-fast

And re-route the latter to be via Middlewich and Crewe, then there would be no trains running between Greenbank and Chester as well almost doubling the journey time between Northwich and Chester by train. Is that seriously what you are suggesting? Or are you proposing to use an additional train or two so they'll be two trains per hour between Northwich and Chester - one via Delamere and one via Middlewich?

 

[frodshamfella]

Maybe an option to be considered could be joining up the Lime Street to Bank Quay stopper and the future Greenbank to Manchester stopper using a 769 Flex?

Good idea. Id use it from Acton Bridge.

 

[Philip]

Currently most passengers from Chester/The Wirral heading towards Sheffield/South Yorkshire use the Northern service between Chester and Stockport because the Mid-Cheshire services are well timed to connect with South TPE (eastbound) and Norwich to Liverpool (westbound) while the ATW service offers very poor connections with Sheffield services at Piccadilly.



It's not the line speed that's the stumbling block - Chester to Warrington to Manchester doesn't exactly have very fast trains - it's the indirect route especially with the services no longer being able to run via Sale.

Chester to Manchester via Warrington almost takes as long as Cuddington to Manchester. Considering Cuddington is 25 minutes from Chester and Chester to Manchester trains will only be half-hourly even after the Northern Connect service starts, travelling via Chester could almost double the journey time.

However, instead of trying to claim people aren't making journeys which they are, can you clarify your idea.

If you start with:
Greenbank-Manchester stopper
Chester-Altrincham-Manchester semi-fast

And re-route the latter to be via Middlewich and Crewe, then there would be no trains running between Greenbank and Chester as well almost doubling the journey time between Northwich and Chester by train. Is that seriously what you are suggesting? Or are you proposing to use an additional train or two so they'll be two trains per hour between Northwich and Chester - one via Delamere and one via Middlewich?

No I'm suggesting the semi-fast service be replaced by a Chester-Mouldsworth-Delamere-Cuddington-Greenbank-Northwich-Middlewich-Sandbach-Crewe shuttle service. The eastern half of the line could then be served solely by the Greenbank-Manchester all stops service, with all of the Manchester trains running in double or even triple formation.

 

[QueensCurve]

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but as its in the same sort of area, the line which links the Mid Cheshire Line to WCML before Acton Bridge, surely this would be a very useful piece of line to have a passenger service over now.

Thinking of links to Warrington, Runcorn, Liverpool.

Hartford CLC Junction to Hartford LNW Junction.

 

[Jamesrob637]

No I'm suggesting the semi-fast service be replaced by a Chester-Mouldsworth-Delamere-Cuddington-Greenbank-Northwich-Middlewich-Sandbach-Crewe shuttle service. The eastern half of the line could then be served solely by the Greenbank-Manchester all stops service, with all of the Manchester trains running in double or even triple formation.

I'm not sure about triple, nice as it would be, but 4 car should be a given

Speaking of 4 car, some service got cancelled due to a train fault this morning. I'm guessing said service was 2-car else they'd have just short-formed it and still operated?

 

[northwichcat]

No I'm suggesting the semi-fast service be replaced by a Chester-Mouldsworth-Delamere-Cuddington-Greenbank-Northwich-Middlewich-Sandbach-Crewe shuttle service. The eastern half of the line could then be served solely by the Greenbank-Manchester all stops service, with all of the Manchester trains running in double or even triple formation.

I really thought you'd be able to come up with a more sensible solution than that idea!

First problem - the Middlewich branch is before Northwich station if you approach it before Chester direction so it would go straight from Greenbank to Middlewich.

Second problem - the stations which provide the most passengers for Mid-Cheshire services are:
1. Manchester Piccadilly
2. Knutsford - one of the busiest stations in the country with a standard pattern of 1tph.
3. Stockport
4. Altrincham
5. Chester
6. Northwich

So the business case for 2tph between Northwich and Manchester is very strong, while the business case for 2tph between Greenbank and Chester is weak. While running a Middlewich service to Chester wouldn't connect it to more nearby towns like Northwich and Knutsford or provide a connection with the Manchester Metrolink.

I'm not sure the 200+ commuters arriving in Knutsford from Stockport direction at 08:00 would like the idea of the 08:00 becoming 6 car instead of a more conveniently timed 08:30 service being added. Maybe you also have a proposal for Bolton-Manchester to go to 2 x 12 car trains an hour as well. :roll:

 

[Greybeard33]

Maybe an option to be considered could be joining up the Lime Street to Bank Quay stopper and the future Greenbank to Manchester stopper using a 769 Flex?

The WCML is only double track for the couple of miles between Acton Bridge and Weaver Jn. Would there be suitable paths available for a Northern service in between all the VTWC, LM and freight trains?

 

[TimboM]

The WCML is only double track for the couple of miles between Acton Bridge and Weaver Jn. Would there be suitable paths available for a Northern service in between all the VTWC, LM and freight trains?

Doubt it. It's pretty much at or very near capacity that stretch from Winsford to Weaver Jnc a lot of which is only 2-track. Certainly think it'd be a struggle to fit a regular stopping service in.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not being au fait with the operational side of things, if a line such as the Middlewich line is an accepted diversionary route, should regular maintenance checks be carried out on it?