Paperless rail tickets across UK by 2019 - Chris Grayling

[Gareth Marston]

If it avoids losing spontaneous custom to other means of transport where you don't have to go through a convoluted and confusing ticket-buying process, I'm all for it.

Consider: if I had the choice of the train and a car, I'd be less likely to pick the car if I didn't have to factor in time spent queueing at a ticket machine or a ticket office before I board.

The confusing complexity of the ticket system is still there behind it. You'll just get Joe Public blundering about not knowing what there doing trying to buy tickets to download and often getting it wrong - much as they do with online booking and TOD now.

 

[AlterEgo]

The confusing complexity of the ticket system is still there behind it. You'll just get Joe Public blundering about not knowing what there doing trying to buy tickets to download and often getting it wrong - much as they do with online booking and TOD now.

Which is an argument for the system to be made simpler and more intuitive. If the ticketing system is so difficult to fathom that it needs trained members of staff to sell one, there’s something very wrong there.

 

[sheff1]

Do mobile tickets work in other European countries?

They do, but we are often told on here that foreign practices will never work on the UK rail network.

Abroad, I have NEVER been accused of travelling illegally when using a valid ticket. In the UK, I have been so accused many times. If 'smart' ticketing here prevents that by making the validity obvious to all then I am all for it.

However, I rather suspect that the "I know because I have worked here for xx years" brigade who believe validity never, ever changes will still refuse to accept things - "the smart info is wrong" in exactly the same way as "the internet is wrong". Hopefully, I will be proved wrong.

 

[beeza1]

I am assuming by with a (not so) smart card one will "tap in" at the start of a journey, and "tap out" at the end, that will see the end of "split ticketing", unless you actually change trains at the intermediate station, myself and a couple of family members have saved over £300 in the last couple of months by "split ticketing", one journey alone saved over £100!
Had this option not been available the cost of tickets would have seen us travelling by car, so from my point of view it would be a very bad deal for the passenger.
I can see the benefit for the regular traveller on the same route.

 

[emil]

I am assuming by with a (not so) smart card one will "tap in" at the start of a journey, and "tap out" at the end, that will see the end of "split ticketing", unless you actually change trains at the intermediate station, myself and a couple of family members have saved over £300 in the last couple of months by "split ticketing", one journey alone saved over £100!
Had this option not been available the cost of tickets would have seen us travelling by car, so from my point of view it would be a very bad deal for the passenger.
I can see the benefit for the regular traveller on the same route.

Especially as the current ITSO cards can only hold maximum of 3 valid tickets and that would have to include seat reservations.A vast amount of money has already been spent on this. Every station would have to have validators (already in place on South Western) and still have a TVM to check its loaded correctly if a validator or ticket barrier has an error message.

 

[radamfi]

I am assuming by with a (not so) smart card one will "tap in" at the start of a journey, and "tap out" at the end, that will see the end of "split ticketing", unless you actually change trains at the intermediate station, myself and a couple of family members have saved over £300 in the last couple of months by "split ticketing", one journey alone saved over £100!
Had this option not been available the cost of tickets would have seen us travelling by car, so from my point of view it would be a very bad deal for the passenger.

I don't see touch-in touch-out smartcards being used for long distances. The Netherlands use them nationwide but the maximum single fare there is about 30 euros. Mobile apps make more sense where fares are higher. Split ticketing is still possible with mobile tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

E-tickets (ticket is a record in a database) make more sense. These can be accessed via any medium.

 

[talldave]

They do, but we are often told on here that foreign practices will never work on the UK rail network.

Abroad, I have NEVER been accused of travelling illegally when using a valid ticket. In the UK, I have been so accused many times. If 'smart' ticketing here prevents that by making the validity obvious to all then I am all for it.

However, I rather suspect that the "I know because I have worked here for xx years" brigade who believe validity never, ever changes will still refuse to accept things - "the smart info is wrong" in exactly the same way as "the internet is wrong". Hopefully, I will be proved wrong.

I'm pretty sure you won't be - this is the UK rail system after all. Even £80m doesn't overcome an inability to organise a p*** up in a brewery.

In fact £80m is nothing when you look at the need to upgrade every ticket barrier in existence - either with hardware, or to modify the existing software. So it won't happen. The existing mess will just get a bit worse - look at the energy industry's smart metering shambles as a good example of how things will go.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I am assuming by with a (not so) smart card one will "tap in" at the start of a journey, and "tap out" at the end, that will see the end of "split ticketing", unless you actually change trains at the intermediate station, myself and a couple of family members have saved over £300 in the last couple of months by "split ticketing", one journey alone saved over £100!
Had this option not been available the cost of tickets would have seen us travelling by car, so from my point of view it would be a very bad deal for the passenger.
I can see the benefit for the regular traveller on the same route.

Had one of my regulars in this morning and make much the same comment - Grayling wants to stop this - he went away with split tickets for his wife for a A-B then B-C journey for £80 which were £125 as two singles.

 

[Bletchleyite]

He won't be able to stop it completely - with any ticketing system splits with a change will be possible, as you'd simply leave the station then re-enter - that makes two journeys.

 

[Puffing Devil]

E-tickets (ticket is a record in a database) make more sense. These can be accessed via any medium.

This should be easy to implement and the most "portable" solution. Ticket is issued electronically - you would need to buy online or via an app. 3D barcode links to the ticket - print it out or keep it on your phone. Staff check the ticket against database using a mobile device. Same when passing through gatelines.

No signal - no problem. The check is uploaded when a connection has been made and the database is uploaded. Sure the passenger may have escaped if there is a problem, though I contend that this will be a small number on local services mainly.

Some people will get away with re-use and other loopholes may be found, though the cost of implementation must be balanced against lost revenue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Precisely. No reason such tickets shouldn't be issue from TVMs or even ticket offices too.

If the railways want to eliminate transfer and offer the passenger-friendly option of e.g. a reprint at the TVM for a nominal fee if lost/forgotten/battery run out, they could take the chance of making tickets named.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Precisely. No reason such tickets shouldn't be issue from TVMs or even ticket offices too.

That would need a change to link the ticket issuing machine to the Great Ticketing Database (c) Puffing Devil. Great if it could be done cheaply, easily and within the timescales. Knowing the state of disparate IT systems employed by the TOCs.......

 

[radamfi]

Cancelling tickets is easier with mobile tickets. No need to visit a ticket office or put tickets in the post. When guards scan your ticket the machine can check whether the ticket has been cancelled.

 

[yorksrob]

Had one of my regulars in this morning and make much the same comment - Grayling wants to stop this - he went away with split tickets for his wife for a A-B then B-C journey for £80 which were £125 as two singles.

So in spite of all the ideological guff, it basically boils down to Grayling wanting the public to pay higher, more extortionate fares.

 

[adamello]

I have a Solent Go travel card,
it was marketed as a great new joined up smart ticketing system.

except it isn't, it's just a digital Wallet.

I have a carnet ticket on it for the ferry, the smart card is no more useful on the busses/ trains by not having it at all, I can also buy a SEPARATE bus ticket if i wanted to, and even then it can only be a season / rover ticket not single or return journey,

not in anyway joined up.


unless all these differing smart solutions are even close to doing what oyster does, it is pointless.

 

[Gareth Marston]

So in spite of all the ideological guff, it basically boils down to Grayling wanting the public to pay higher, more extortionate fares.

Out of the sorry procession of Secretary of States for Transport over the last 20 years which one do you think is most sympathetic to a TOC or a DfT apparatchik bending his ear that there profits/Franchise targets are being undermined by the pesky public split ticketing?

Grayling can run the mill through the soundbites for public consumption but his ideological fervor means he firmly believes that the best deal for the economy/public overall is a buccaneering free market approach. He would probably be happy to see all fare regulation disappear and the market decide but he knows he cant do that so is happy to work to his brief of reigning expenditure on the non HS2 railway in. Fewer staff, more automation, kill split ticketing = reduced Government subsidy.

 

[yorksrob]

Out of the sorry procession of Secretary of States for Transport over the last 20 years which one do you think is most sympathetic to a TOC or a DfT apparatchik bending his ear that there profits/Franchise targets are being undermined by the pesky public split ticketing?

Grayling can run the mill through the soundbites for public consumption but his ideological fervor means he firmly believes that the best deal for the economy/public overall is a buccaneering free market approach. He would probably be happy to see all fare regulation disappear and the market decide but he knows he cant do that so is happy to work to his brief of reigning expenditure on the non HS2 railway in. Fewer staff, more automation, kill split ticketing = reduced Government subsidy.

I trust this one the least, by a country mile.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I trust this one the least, by a country mile.

He's not the passengers friend.The railway has taken a nasty lurch in last couple of years.

 

[Via Bank]

Indeed more fragmentation, more confusion, more working against each other as company A etc feels its not incentivized to do it etc

This is precisely why I believe the current smartcard system is a dead end. A lack of inter availability and consistency is literally designed into something that’s taken almost a decade longer than intended to implement, and still doesn’t work.

The words “p*ss-up” and “brewery” spring to mind.

 

[6Gman]

If it avoids losing spontaneous custom to other means of transport where you don't have to go through a convoluted and confusing ticket-buying process, I'm all for it.

Consider: if I had the choice of the train and a car, I'd be less likely to pick the car if I didn't have to factor in time spent queueing at a ticket machine or a ticket office before I board.

I arrive at the station. I tell the booking clerk where I want to go. He/she sells me the ticket. If I have a query he/she answers.

Personally far quicker than faffing about with my "device" ... whatever that might be.

 

[6Gman]

E-tickets (ticket is a record in a database) make more sense. These can be accessed via any medium.

Assuming the passenger has a "medium".

 

[Bletchleyite]

I arrive at the station. I tell the booking clerk where I want to go. He/she sells me the ticket. If I have a query he/she answers.

Wrongly, far too much of the time, in my experience.

My mobile doesn't go "I've worked here 30 years and I must be right".

Assuming the passenger has a "medium".

A barcode printed on a ticket from a TVM or ticket office is a medium.

 

[radamfi]

I arrive at the station. I tell the booking clerk where I want to go. He/she sells me the ticket. If I have a query he/she answers.

Personally far quicker than faffing about with my "device" ... whatever that might be.

I'll remember that the next time I have a 10 minute queue at the ticket office, meaning that I miss my train and have to wait another hour for the next train.

Or when I have a 10 minute wait at the ticket machine to collect my Advance ticket, meaning that I miss my reserved train and have to buy a full priced Anytime ticket. And then wait an hour for the next train.

 

[sheff1]

I arrive at the station. I tell the booking clerk where I want to go. He/she sells me the ticket. If I have a query he/she answers.

* I arrive at the station.
* I queue for 10 mins.
* I tell the booking clerk where I want to go.
* They ask me to spell it.
* I spell it and they claim I have pronounced it incorrectly, even though I lived there for years and they clearly have no idea where it is.
* They ask what time I am coming back.
* When I tell them, they state I need an Anytime return because I am coming back in the peak.
* I tell them there is no evening peak restriction for an Off Peak Return on that journey.
* They know the ticket is not valid in 'the peak' because they have worked there for 20 years
* I call up the Validity Code on my 'device'.
* They refuse to look at it and say I should not be telling them how to do their job because they have been there for 20 years.
* I have now missed the train

....

Alternative scenario.

* I log onto my device on the way into town and purchase an Off Peak Return.
* I have plenty of time to purchase a coffee at the station before boarding the train where I present the e-ticket to the guard who reads via their device and moves onto the next passenger.

 

[alistairlees]

I find all the negative comments on this thread a bit depressing.

Smart ticketing means either smartcard or barcode ticket on a flow.

And 'barcode ticket' means m-ticket (the kind you get in apps, and have to activate) or eTickets (the kind that look like airline tickets, or can just be printed off, and which don't need to be activated). Both can be scanned at gates or with hand-held validators. Both of these are linked to a distributed database for usage / refund etc. checking. eTickets are completely interoperable, there are no separate operator systems, and they can be rolled out everywhere except cross-London flows, as TfL is not equipped for barcode scanning and doesn't want to be. So there is some work being done to look at how to tackle that through NFC.

ITSO as it stands - with a separate HOPS for each operator - is not in the same league, but something that is PAYG-based does have a place in urban networks.

The first step of smart ticketing on every flow is going to happen by the end of next year. Yes, there will be some issues. No, CCST won't disappear. For millions of passenger journeys, this will be a massive improvement. It's not the solution to everything (fares complexity; ticket prices; everyone wanting ticket offices too) but it's a thing we should be welcoming, not tearing to pieces.

And yes, after the ITSO debacle, I understand the cynicism of many. I too think ITSO is basically a waste of money. But that doesn't mean we should not try to improve things. And it doesn't mean we won't succeed, either.

I'd urge people to be more supportive. It doesn't matter who it's announced by - I am not interested in a political point here (I haven't got one to make). What matters is how we can improve things for passengers.

I'm not being naive, and I'm all for informed and constructive debate, but I find it sad that there is so much cynicism, and so little (apparent) support. It's easy to criticise, it is much harder (especially in a distributed industry like rail) to go and achieve things.

Any support for helping achieve this small step in better ticketing is to be welcomed

 

[FenMan]

I find all the negative comments on this thread a bit depressing.

Smart ticketing means either smartcard or barcode ticket on a flow.

And 'barcode ticket' means m-ticket (the kind you get in apps, and have to activate) or eTickets (the kind that look like airline tickets, or can just be printed off, and which don't need to be activated). Both can be scanned at gates or with hand-held validators. Both of these are linked to a distributed database for usage / refund etc. checking. eTickets are completely interoperable, there are no separate operator systems, and they can be rolled out everywhere except cross-London flows, as TfL is not equipped for barcode scanning and doesn't want to be. So there is some work being done to look at how to tackle that through NFC.

ITSO as it stands - with a separate HOPS for each operator - is not in the same league, but something that is PAYG-based does have a place in urban networks.

The first step of smart ticketing on every flow is going to happen by the end of next year. Yes, there will be some issues. No, CCST won't disappear. For millions of passenger journeys, this will be a massive improvement. It's not the solution to everything (fares complexity; ticket prices; everyone wanting ticket offices too) but it's a thing we should be welcoming, not tearing to pieces.

And yes, after the ITSO debacle, I understand the cynicism of many. I too think ITSO is basically a waste of money. But that doesn't mean we should not try to improve things. And it doesn't mean we won't succeed, either.

I'd urge people to be more supportive. It doesn't matter who it's announced by - I am not interested in a political point here (I haven't got one to make). What matters is how we can improve things for passengers.

I'm not being naive, and I'm all for informed and constructive debate, but I find it sad that there is so much cynicism, and so little (apparent) support. It's easy to criticise, it is much harder (especially in a distributed industry like rail) to go and achieve things.

Any support for helping achieve this small step in better ticketing is to be welcomed

Well, quite. But Grayling hasn't suddenly discovered the holy grail of ticketing. What he has discovered is that his dismal performances at various Ministries - his spell at Justice being a highlight - might persuade the faithful at conference this week that he's pretty useless. And that wouldn't do at all.

So, coincidentally, an announcement this week. And it only costs £80M to do it?

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[sheff1]

I find it sad that there is so much cynicism, and so little (apparent) support.

I have been travelling in Sweden for the last week. The ticketing system there is basically as you describe.

One group of people show their e-ticket on phones, laptops, tablets or a piece of paper. The ticket checker scans the barcode (not sure if that is the correct term) using a device the same size as a mobile phone. The other group present a smartcard which is read by, I think, the same device.

If such a system were introduced on UK rail I would support it wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, for reasons put forward by various posters, I am not confident this is what we will get. As I said before, hopefully I will be proved wrong.

 

[jon0844]

By and large, we have some pretty good systems to sell tickets online. In most cases, you can then go to a TVM and print them out.

Sadly this is where you can have issues. Printer fails to issue all tickets/coupons but doesn't realise (it has been stuck part way, a problem on the new S&B machines), the machine is out of use, you need to go to a station but it isn't local and so it means wasting petrol/taking the bus/planning around another visit.

It would seem logical and easy, and quick to do, to simply bypass the need to collect your tickets from a machine if you ordered from a computer and have a printer OR you have a mobile phone.

If I use a mobile app, I buy a ticket and then my account shows tickets available to collect. Well, what if - shock - that folder showed a ticket ready to use?

I know many TOCs have their own e-ticketing systems, but why can't the industry at least work towards having virtual tickets shown on screen, with the appropriate Aztec codes, so they can be scanned with ease? Anyone using a modern scanner in a supermarket knows they can work extremely quickly, at any angle, and it does away with the need to try and check if there's a discount (need to check railcard), is it in date, does it look tampered with?

Heck, if the RPI/TM has a device that knows where it is you could even argue that it could show if the ticket was valid on that route (but that's maybe a little too much to ask for right now).

 

[bussnapperwm]

Surely the way the Glasgow Subway is the best way to go. Disposable smart cards from a tvm/window with your ticket on, tied to a common system. For those who want a permanent smart card, one NR branded onemail (or PTE branded one in those areas)

Stations without a booking office have roving RPIs, arriving 10 mins before a train to set up a makeshift booking office which closes 1 minute before rail service departure for infrequent services/stays open 1st-last service otherwise.

Simples