SWR: RMT ballot over role of guards *48 hour strike 8th/9th November*

[pompeyfan]

I think the last time someone opened the doors on the so called "wrong side" it was on platform 6/7 at Guildford and the doors were accidentally released on platform 7 by mistake. I mean what a cardinal sin, people got off safely and the doors were closed, no damage or anything and then doors were opened on 6.

I was more referring to nationally rather than SWR and the example of giving 2 on a red etc etc which we know does happen, but to give 2 lots of 2 on the red and then put the release up on the wrong side (which is how I interpret it) leaves question to be asked.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

interesting you use the word "respectfully" when you clearly have none for the people that pay your over inflated wages.
i have never had a problem with any member of railway staff, of course i treat them with respect, as they do me, is it that i express an opinion different to yours that i am treating you with contempt? perhaps your examples are borne out of your attitude to your CUSTOMERS not passengers?. what you give out comes right back at you. Which takes me back to my first post about why the railway is light years behind the real world, sorry pal but the old BR like it or lump it days are gone.

You're just so up yourself aren't you, you're just so full of vitriol and contempt for staff, you're just not worth bothering with because, all you will do is twist and skew the discussion to your own PoV/agenda.

I feel sorry for someone like you, you must be very lonely. And with that I'm done with you. I've have been open, frank & honest and I feel it's now an appropriate time to draw a line under this as you're simply not worth it.

PS. You may want to learn how to spell, punctuate and capitalise where appropriate, you may actually get further along the promotion ladder if you can do it properly.

 

[sirjojo]

The 'classic' 450/444 Desiros are not really suitable for DOO conversion as the cabs are already very cramped with little room for CCTV monitors, anyone who has been in a driving cab of a 350/450/444 Desiro will know this.



That's a still far cry from the 900 plus guards on the company's payroll.



That is hilariously incorrect on so many levels, there is more to guards training that pinging doors open and route knowledge, that said the idea that platform staff (most of whom are RMT members themselves) would act as contingency guards is even more amusing.

i haven't been in the drivers cab, so will accept your superior knowledge on this, however i do not believe it is beyond the wit of man to make this possible.
true its way short, but could still provide some sort of service and give the guards something to think about.
i disagree with your last point. route knowledge, safety and safe dispatch surely is the core role of the guard? what key parts am i missing? from my experience platform staff tend to be younger and not as "union ingrained" as the normally elder guard, so i believe would be more inclined to err to the customer service side of things as more modern employees tend to be, viewing passengers as customers rather than an inconvenience

 

[sirjojo]

You're just so up yourself aren't you, you're just so full of vitriol and contempt for staff, you're just not worth bothering with because, all you will do is twist and skew the discussion to your own PoV/agenda.

I feel sorry for someone like you, you must be very lonely. And with that I'm done with you. I've have been open, frank & honest and I feel it's now an appropriate time to draw a line under this as you're simply not worth it.

PS. You may want to learn how to spell, punctuate and capitalise where appropriate, you may actually get further along the promotion ladder if you can do it properly.

I have no problem with railway staff at all, never been in a dispute with any of them. I'm sorry if the truth hurts, but we move on.
P.S Don't feel sorry for me
P.P.S if you're going to be pathetic enough to get on your high horse about grammar on a forum, then "I've have" doesn't make sense.
cheers

 

[pompeyfan]

i haven't been in the drivers cab, so will accept your superior knowledge on this, however i do not believe it is beyond the wit of man to make this possible.
true its way short, but could still provide some sort of service and give the guards something to think about.
i disagree with your last point. route knowledge, safety and safe dispatch surely is the core role of the guard? what key parts am i missing? from my experience platform staff tend to be younger and not as "union ingrained" as the normally elder guard, so i believe would be more inclined to err to the customer service side of things as more modern employees tend to be, viewing passengers as customers rather than an inconvenience

You’re disagreeing with someone about what their own job role entails and also knows about what platform staff’s role is?

Also, your point about age and union involvement is so far off the mark and so judgemental it’s ridiculous. What next, only women should be guards because they’re not into politics? Maybe they’re too busy doing their make up all the time?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

You’re disagreeing with someone about what their own job role entails and also knows about what platform staff’s role is?

Also, your point about age and union involvement is so far off the mark and so judgemental it’s ridiculous. What next, only women should be guards because they’re not into politics? Maybe they’re too busy doing their make up all the time?

Don't waste your time, we're just being trolled. As I've said he'll just twist and skew the subject to meet his own needs and agenda.

 

[Domeyhead]

Mmm. I can tell you now that there was just recently an instance of a strike breaker who operated the doors on the WRONG side of a train. I bet that'll be hushed up & carefully swept under the carpet.

And if you want to alienate people & MoS, you carry on because you're doing a really good job of it right now and it's not helping your cause or argument.

Remember the massive majority of passengers on SWR want the guards on their trains, it makes them feel much happier and more secure.

That is not true. THe majority of passengers on South Western Railway (I am one) want a second member of staff on the train - a simple issue deliberately obfuscated by the RMT who deliberately mislead people into believing that the proposal is for a driver and no other member of staff on the train. I know this because in many conversations with passengers and others this misapprehension must constantly be corrected, usually to their surprise and the comment "well what is the fuss all about?" . Moreover as a passenger who has never spat or swore at a guard I look forward to the redefined role of OBS attracting people who are more suited to customer facing role than you. Your posts insult passengers as a group rather than recognising that in any population you will get good and bad and that the majority are as polite and consierate as you would wish them to be. Apologies for typos - typed on a tablet.

 

[sirjojo]

You’re disagreeing with someone about what their own job role entails and also knows about what platform staff’s role is?

Also, your point about age and union involvement is so far off the mark and so judgemental it’s ridiculous. What next, only women should be guards because they’re not into politics? Maybe they’re too busy doing their make up all the time?

no, i'll type slowly so you understand. i don't know the drivers role, so i bow to their superior knowledge of the cab setup. I DO know the role of platform staff, possibly more so, having done the role. I am only expressing my opinion, it's not judgmental in any way, or indeed factual. MOST, NOT all platform staff i have spoken to about the guards ballot think they have been rather silly. And most of these platform staff have been younger than the average guard I encounter, I'm not claiming it to be an accurate study, but I can only go on what i've heard

 

[pompeyfan]

That is not true. THe majority of passengers on South Western Railway (I am one) want a second member of staff on the train - a simple issue deliberately obfuscated by the RMT who deliberately mislead people into believing that the proposal is for a driver and no other member of staff on the train. I know this because in many conversations with passengers and others this misapprehension must constantly be corrected, usually to their surprise and the comment "well what is the fuss all about?" . Moreover as a passenger who has never spat or swore at a guard I look forward to the redefined role of OBS attracting people who are more suited to customer facing role than you. Your posts insult passengers as a group rather than recognising that in any population you will get good and bad and that the majority are as polite and consierate as you would wish them to be. Apologies for typos - typed on a tablet.

I think the concern is that once trains are able to run DOO, the government or future franchises will use that as an excuse to do away with a 2nd member of staff. I’d genuinely be surprised if there was still a 2nd member of staff in the current OBS form on their T&Cs once the next GTR franchise has settled in.

 

[Monty]

i haven't been in the drivers cab, so will accept your superior knowledge on this, however i do not believe it is beyond the wit of man to make this possible.
true its way short, but could still provide some sort of service and give the guards something to think about.

You would need to chop the cab off and redesign it from the ground up, it would be cheaper in the long term to order new trains. The cabs are notoriously cramped and visibility isn't all that great either in those units.

i disagree with your last point. route knowledge, safety and safe dispatch surely is the core role of the guard? what key parts am i missing?

On top of route knowledge, the rules training that each guard receives is far more in depth than that of a platform dispatcher. We are talking about things like laying emergency protection, operating a train during degraded working, what to do when the Traction Interlock Switch or Emergency Bypass Switch as been isolated, correction method of communicating with the driver or signaller, making an emergency call, carrying out a controlled evacuation, how to react to an uncontrolled evacuation. The list is virtually endless and I haven't even touched base on traction knowledge (faults and failures, locking doors and carriages out of use) and PTS (vast majority of SWR's platform staff do -not- have this training) which is important for things like evacuations, isolation of the traction current (Emergerncy Switch Off as it's now known).

from my experience platform staff tend to be younger and not as "union ingrained" as the normally elder guard, so i believe would be more inclined to err to the customer service side of things as more modern employees tend to be, viewing passengers as customers rather than an inconvenience

Not really sure how to take this comment, i think you will find that all grades have a healthy mix of age and gender, to assume that because they are younger and therefore less likely to be in a union and would be more inclined to break strikes by acting as contingency guards in the name of customer service is incredibly naive. I also take great offence at your assumption that as I as a guard treat my passengers as a 'inconvenience' when compared to other members of staff, they are my responsibility. It's my job to get them where they need to go as quickly, pleasantly and more importantly safely as possible. I treat all my passengers with dignity and respect (for which I expect it in return, no more no less) and I am more than happy assist in anyway than I am. I enjoy my job, it's the best job (in my opinion) on the whole railway and I want to continue doing that job. Most if not all guards I know share this view and to claim that guards are less professional and customer focused that 'younger' platform staff has no factual basis.

Oh and food for thought, in the last 20 years of the previous franchise the platform staff have had far more industrial disputes than the guards grade did.

 

[sirjojo]

That is not true. THe majority of passengers on South Western Railway (I am one) want a second member of staff on the train - a simple issue deliberately obfuscated by the RMT who deliberately mislead people into believing that the proposal is for a driver and no other member of staff on the train. I know this because in many conversations with passengers and others this misapprehension must constantly be corrected, usually to their surprise and the comment "well what is the fuss all about?" . Moreover as a passenger who has never spat or swore at a guard I look forward to the redefined role of OBS attracting people who are more suited to customer facing role than you. Your posts insult passengers as a group rather than recognising that in any population you will get good and bad and that the majority are as polite and consierate as you would wish them to be. Apologies for typos - typed on a tablet.

there is no place for your common sense and reason here. guards can't accept that customers care more about getting where we need to be on time than protecting their salary

 

[Monty]

there is no place for your common sense and reason here. guards can't accept that customers care more about getting where we need to be on time than protecting their salary

Since when has this been about our salaries?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Yeah righto Domeyhead. You live in your utopian and idyllic world and I'll live in the real one.

I've been stabbed in the back (metaphorically) too many times to trust anyone now, never thanked, just get a complete lack of interest or respect and of course everything is my fault even when it's not and you're never prepared to listen to what we say, even when we do get to know.

Trust and respect is a two way thing. When you are in my (our) domain my guard and I are responsible for you and your safety and I expect you to follow any instructions that we may give you, not for you to take matters into your own hands, "jump ship", cuss & swear at us because you are late.

Remember a significant amount of the time it's you and your fellow passengers that cause the delays and disruption to your journeys, not us. Outside of that it's often NRs infrastructure that is at fault. Nothing to do with us.

And a train just like your car can and does breakdown every so often, not my fault either, but I have to deal with it and you lot having a go and a bitchfest at me or my guard doesn't solve anything.

We have a job to do and we have to follow the instructions we're given by those who are "upstairs" no matter how much you like it or not. If we're late, you are late and we're all going to be late home.

If the signals/points aren't working then we're going nowhere like it or not, train breaks down then I have to follow the instructions and procedures that they (phone a friend) tell me to do and if that means I have to chuck you off, then so be it.

 

[pompeyfan]

no, i'll type slowly so you understand. i don't know the drivers role, so i bow to their superior knowledge of the cab setup. I DO know the role of platform staff, possibly more so, having done the role. I am only expressing my opinion, it's not judgmental in any way, or indeed factual. MOST, NOT all platform staff i have spoken to about the guards ballot think they have been rather silly. And most of these platform staff have been younger than the average guard I encounter, I'm not claiming it to be an accurate study, but I can only go on what i've heard

Thanks for typing slowly, I’m really grateful for it.

The point I’m making is that you’re trying to disagree with a train guard that his/her job isn’t that different from platform staff, when surely the best person to tell you what their job entails is someone who does the job for a living?

A fair few guards do think the RMT ballot was too soon, however the RMT believe one of the lessons learned from their GTR dispute was that action came too late in the dispute to fight the changes effectively.

Platform staff and guards come in many different forms, young, old, white, black, politically minded, left leaning, right leaning... the point is that there is no stereotypical guard or platform staff (except there isn’t enough women on the Railway) and to say there is incorrect.

 

[sirjojo]

You would need to chop the cab off and redesign it from the ground up, it would be cheaper in the long term to order new trains. The cabs are notoriously cramped and visibility isn't all that great either in those units.



On top of route knowledge, the rules training that each guard receives is far more in depth than that of a platform dispatcher. We are talking about things like laying emergency protection, operating a train during degraded working, what to do when the Traction Interlock Switch or Emergency Bypass Switch as been isolated, correction method of communicating with the driver or signaller, making an emergency call, carrying out a controlled evacuation, how to react to an uncontrolled evacuation. The list is virtually endless and I haven't even touched base on traction knowledge (faults and failures, locking doors and carriages out of use) and PTS (vast majority of SWR's platform staff do -not- have this training) which is important for things like evacuations, isolation of the traction current (Emergerncy Switch Off as it's now known).



Not really sure how to take this comment, i think you will find that all grades have a healthy mix of age and gender, to assume that because they are younger and therefore less likely to be in a union and would be more inclined to break strikes by acting as contingency guards in the name of customer service is incredibly naive. I also take great offence at your assumption that as I as a guard treat my passengers as a 'inconvenience' when compared to other members of staff, they are my responsibility. It's my job to get them where they need to go as quickly, pleasantly and more importantly safely as possible. I treat all my passengers with dignity and respect (for which I expect it in return, no more no less) and I am more than happy assist in anyway than I am. I enjoy my job, it's the best job (in my opinion) on the whole railway and I want to continue doing that job. Most if not all guards I know share this view and to claim that guards are less professional and customer focused that 'younger' platform staff has no factual basis.

Oh and food for thought, in the last 20 years of the previous franchise the platform staff have had far more industrial disputes than the guards did.

apologies, the "customers are an inconvenience" comment was more of a rant at people like harleydavidson, who clearly treats his customers with contempt, hence gets it back. Thank you for your informative post about areas that i hadn't fully considered. I do believe, in general, younger people are less inclined to follow hardcore unionists, and would be less reluctant to strike. I genuinely hope SWR keep people like you on the train

 

[HarleyDavidson]

apologies, the "customers are an inconvenience" comment was more of a rant at people like harleydavidson, who clearly treats his customers with contempt, hence gets it back. Thank you for your informative post about areas that i hadn't fully considered. I do believe, in general, younger people are less inclined to follow hardcore unionists, and would be less reluctant to strike. I genuinely hope SWR keep people like you on the train

If you think that I'm a guard, you're much mistaken.

I'm old school and someone who has worked their way through the ranks to get to where I am. I don't tolerate ignorance, arrogance or fools gladly.

 

[sirjojo]

Yeah righto Domeyhead. You live in your utopian and idyllic world and I'll live in the real one.

I've been stabbed in the back (metaphorically) too many times to trust anyone now, never thanked, just get a complete lack of interest or respect and of course everything is my fault even when it's not and you're never prepared to listen to what we say, even when we do get to know.

Trust and respect is a two way thing. When you are in my (our) domain my guard and I are responsible for you and your safety and I expect you to follow any instructions that we may give you, not for you to take matters into your own hands, "jump ship", cuss & swear at us because you are late.

Remember a significant amount of the time it's you and your fellow passengers that cause the delays and disruption to your journeys, not us. Outside of that it's often NRs infrastructure that is at fault. Nothing to do with us.

And a train just like your car can and does breakdown every so often, not my fault either, but I have to deal with it and you lot having a go and a bitchfest at me or my guard doesn't solve anything.

We have a job to do and we have to follow the instructions we're given by those who are "upstairs" no matter how much you like it or not. If we're late, you are late and we're all going to be late home.

If the signals/points aren't working then we're going nowhere like it or not, train breaks down then I have to follow the instructions and procedures that they (phone a friend) tell me to do and if that means I have to chuck you off, then so be it.

is your 50k salary not thanks enough? you're the one who needs to get in the real world mate. guess what, you work in a a customer facing role you're gonna cop a bit of grief now and then. grow a pair of balls mate, plenty of people would do your job without moaning 24/7

 

[sirjojo]

If you think that I'm a guard, you're much mistaken.

I'm old school and someone who has worked their way through the ranks to get to where I am. I don't tolerate ignorance, arrogance or fools gladly.

never said you was..

 

[HarleyDavidson]

£50K? I wish, I don't think so.

I don't do rest days or overtime, so my money is basic pay, the only extra I get is that from enforced overtime I have had to work due to delays or when the shift is extended for some reason or other.

I'm not in a customer facing role either.

And please do not call me mate, I'm not your friend or mate. Thank you.

 

[pompeyfan]

is your 50k salary not thanks enough? you're the one who needs to get in the real world mate. guess what, you work in a a customer facing role you're gonna cop a bit of grief now and then. grow a pair of balls mate, plenty of people would do your job without moaning 24/7

I believe SWR are recruiting drivers for London end depots currently.....

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Perhaps sirjojo should apply and see how easy it is to get a job either as a guard or driver and then they might just see how difficult it is to do.

No guarantee of the time off or getting back on time, getting up at 0230 one week and getting back home at that time the next.

Might make them appreciate the role of the guard and driver a bit more.

 

[sirjojo]

Perhaps sirjojo should apply and see how easy it is to get a job either as a guard or driver and then they might just see how difficult it is to do.

No guarantee of the time off or getting back on time, getting up at 0230 one week and getting back home at that time the next.

Might make them appreciate the role of the guard and driver a bit more.

i have no wish to take a pay cut, thank you.
However it is a fantastic salary for those out of London, and there would doubtless be a lot of interest.
I appreciate the hours / shift pattern is difficult, but there are plenty willing to do it.
Perhaps ex BR drivers / guards should take the assessments new recruits have to take? that would make for some interesting results..

 

[BestWestern]

you summed it up yourself, no reason for guards to be threatened, so why have the RMT brainwashed them into believing they are? I don't know as an outsider, all i have seen is the proposal to run DOO services when NO guard available,to improve the service for customers, have SWR said to its employees they plan to work DOO during normal operation? if not i stand by opinion that RMT have massively jumped the gun, and sold their members way short. how is DOO completely unworkable?, plenty of other toc's do it. And it may be tedious to you, but i'll tell you what is really tedious for me, day after day of threats of strike action disrupting me getting to work, potentially jeopardising my job and my ability to provide for my family, if guards are that hard done by why wouldn't they look for another job? or is it because they are scared of being rumbled for trousering more than a lot of nurses / police etc for doing, frankly not a lot

It's very, very clear that you fail to grasp (or choose to disregard) the issues. You've knocked what was a pretty sensible thread a long way off course, perhaps give it a while before you add any more of your valued insights, give it a chance to recover.

I'm glad you value your job and ability to provide for your family, ever occurred to you that those who are striking might feel the same? No, probably not....

 

[313103]

i have no wish to take a pay cut, thank you.

At long last we have finally got there and you have hit the nail on the head 'Im alright Jack' attitude. You have a nice WELL paid job yet moans about someone on £50,000 and considers that to be a pay cut for yourself. Ive got news for you JACK most Guards would wish they could earn that amount of money, and for many grades getting near £30,000 is a wish. The only way most staff get near this magical figure of £50,000 is to work to the maximum requirements of Hidden, ie 12 hour shifts, 72 hour weekly work and only having one day off in 14.

Yet you dont mind someone losing there job as long as its not yours! How very considerate of you.

Oh and by the way you are only a customer when you purchase your ticket or whatever you use. Once you have passed that point you become a passenger.

 

[sirjojo]

I
I'm glad you value your job and ability to provide for your family, ever occurred to you that those who are striking might feel the same? No, probably not.... :roll:

.as i said originally, no employer can guarantee your salary for 7 years, it's an unrealistic expectation in the modern workplace, the railway needs to catch up and respect that.

 

[sirjojo]

At long last we have finally got there and you have hit the nail on the head 'Im alright Jack' attitude. You have a nice WELL paid job yet moans about someone on £50,000 and considers that to be a pay cut for yourself. Ive got news for you JACK most Guards would wish they could earn that amount of money, and for many grades getting near £30,000 is a wish. The only way most staff get near this magical figure of £50,000 is to work to the maximum requirements of Hidden, ie 12 hour shifts, 72 hour weekly work and only having one day off in 14.

Yet you dont mind someone losing there job as long as its not yours! How very considerate of you.

Oh and by the way you are only a customer when you purchase your ticket or whatever you use. Once you have passed that point you become a passenger.

I don't begrudge the vast majority of rail staff i meet a single penny, 99% of the time they are cracking on, in often difficult circumstances, and i have nothing but respect and admiration for the cr @p they have to put up with. Of course i don't to see anyone lose their job, i just feel they need to be more in touch with the real world and accept, like the rest of us, that things can change very quickly.
and by the way i am a CUSTOMER at all times during my journey, when you book a flight are you only a customer when you book and pay for the ticket, and not a customer on the plane?

 

[313103]

and by the way i am a CUSTOMER at all times during my journey, when you book a flight are you only a customer when you book and pay for the ticket, and not a customer on the plane?

National Rail Conditions of Travel 2016 does not mention the word Customer once in its 32 page document, it does however mention the word Passenger. So perhaps that is something else you can get your teeth into.

When i travel by plane, train or bus i am only the customer at points of transactions, once seated or stood i become a passenger and i never expect to be called anything other then a passenger.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Because 444/450 don't have the door buttons wired in or enabled for a starter, 455 don't have any buttons in the cabs, 456's are the only one's that are capable of doing DOO, 458s are leaving either for pastures new or scrapyard, along with the 455/456s.

The 455s, 456s and 458s are getting replaced, I would expect that the Aventras will all have the required wiring in place for DOO, even if the panels for the DOO equipment are blanked off

i think with your attitude to CUSTOMERS an early retirement is long overdue..
as i said before, i would RATHER have a guard than not, but I don't see how any of your extreme examples could save a passengers life. If the driver was dead / incapacitated, AWS would prevent the train travelling beyond the section and no guard would mean the customers would have to wait a little longer for information / assistance, not really life or death

afaik the vigilance device would alert the signalbox, don't know if the signallers can do broadcast PA messages at all on any of the existing SWR stock

 

[sjoh]

Christ, I think this has gone a little far. I've read through this as someone who doesn't work on the railway (although am gladly considering the idea), with a heavy heart. There are clearly a few of you who have very strong opinions either way, but I feel are somewhat talking at cross purposes. To fully disclose: I support the idea of a 2nd (safety critical) on board member of staff, and I can certainly see why existing guards are concerned with how things are shaping up - as pointed out earlier, making their role non-safety-critical does indeed open up the opportunity later on to do away with it altogether. Thus, of course i suspect there is some long term job security concern. But I do not for one second think this is the primary concern of guards right now. They do a very important job, which in actual fact does not pay all that well, all things considered, unless they are willing to work extreme hours (and really, who does that, unless they really do care about what they do? It's possible to survive on less).

i would respectfully ask all involved in this debate to have a brief read over their preceding posts in this thread and consider whether the attitudes they've displayed to one another would reflect how they would react to each other over a pint or two with like-minded individuals.

 

[pompeyfan]

The 455s, 456s and 458s are getting replaced, I would expect that the Aventras will all have the required wiring in place for DOO, even if the panels for the DOO equipment are blanked off



afaik the vigilance device would alert the signalbox, don't know if the signallers can do broadcast PA messages at all on any of the existing SWR stock

All new stock delivered now must have the ability to run out the box DOO, although not all TOCs feel the need to run new stock as DOO.

The GSMR does indeed alert the signaller to any DSD/DVD activations. Having someone else on board with the relevant key to access the cab to assist the driver is a different issue completely, as I mentioned recently, a guard on SWR managed to raise the alarm and get assistance to the driver much quicker than had the train been running without a 2nd person.