Driver to guard buzzer

[E_Reeves]

I'd love to know why, it looks like a right faff.

Are 222s the same?

 

[380101]

I hate modern units with the beepers. They are not very distinguishable from other in cab beeps.

All of the Scotrail 156's and 158's that I have been on have beepers in the cab but the GOPs in the middle of a Scotrail 158 have buzzers.

I remember once a Northern 319 that I worked had a bell in one cab and a buzzer in the other!

I'd say the 380 digital bell sound is very easy to distinguish from other in cab noises. No experience of what the bells sound like in other modern EMUs but I imagine all the Siemens have the same or very similar sounding bells.

 

[scotraildriver]

158s we had back in 2012 for training train from Motherwell to Cumbernauld were all Buzz-buzz.

The ex Alphaine silver bullets/stinking wrecks are buzz buzz. Must have been one of them all the Scotrail ones are now beep.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I remember in 2008 I went on my first 142 (to Barnstaple when they worked with FGW) and was really terrified by the buzzer! I was five - don’t judge me

Oh, and 159s are weird, they signal using what sounds like a quick “shh shh!” instead of a buzzer/beep/bell

 

[tsr]

171/7 and /8 have buzzers, and /2 and /4 have very feeble beeps. If coupled up, each unit makes its own noise in its own cabs regardless of which sub-class the signal was sent from.

I'd love to know why, it looks like a right faff.

No worse than 377s and 165/166 units, all of which use the ten-bell procedure from the cabs, just with a manual door rather than an electronically controlled one.

The ten-bell closure procedure (driver closing under instruction) is actually the best way of doing it if the driver also has the controls to release the doors. Funnily enough this applies to the Thames Turbos and Electrostars. If the guard can close doors by themselves but not open them (as per the Electrostar saloon panels etc.), then if they close the doors in error when the driver has left the train, perhaps to deal with a fault, then the driver has to go down to the cab and release the doors again. However, with ten bells, the driver will not close the doors unless they are just as ready as the guard is.

 

[DaveTM]

Back on topic, on 313s the bell is truely a bell and goes ding-ding when the guard gives the RTS ... except on those units where it goes clunk-clunk. I spoke to one driver who had the clapper fly off and roll around the cab floor during a trip, converting the cab from ding to clunk.
Going off topic, what I find more annoying is the lack of standardisation of AWS sounds. Some 377 "bells" and "horns" are sweet and melodious, some could wake the dead. Most 313 horns could be mistaken for a strangled cockerel.

 

[noddingdonkey]

In general:

EMUs - Bell

333s are an exception, pretty sure they have a beep not a bell

 

[TEW]

I'd say the 380 digital bell sound is very easy to distinguish from other in cab noises. No experience of what the bells sound like in other modern EMUs but I imagine all the Siemens have the same or very similar sounding bells.

The 380 beeper is a different sound to older Desiros. The older one is a bit harder to distinguish in my opinion.

 

[TEW]

I remember once a Northern 319 that I worked had a bell in one cab and a buzzer in the other!

456s can be like that. Mostly they now have a beep, but you still get the odd cab which is still a bell, or occasionally both!

 

[30907]

On a more serious note: how did buzzer communication come to be in the first place? Was it invented before the telephone or radio transceivers?

To be flippant, it must have been possible as early as the electric telegraph in the 1840s.
Seriously, bell/buzzer communication is quick and effective for a limited range of communication, which is why it was adopted in signalling soon after the telegraph.

Was it a Southern region thing to use a bell?

That would make sense - but does anyone know what any of the modern pre-nationalisation stock (Liverpool, Shenfield) had? Or LT?

 

[Bletchleyite]

One advantage of the buzzer over the bell is I suppose in the emergency stop - if the guard wants a buzzer equipped unit to be stopped he can just push and hold the buzzer until the brakes kick in, whereas a single bell is not quite as attention grabbing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are 222s the same?

I genuinely don't know I'm afraid.

 

[LowLevel]

Class 222s have a different set up. They're fitted with selective door opening. The driver selects the number of carriages to release in the cab and puts the door release up. This causes the train manager's door release buttons to light up and they can then release the doors when they choose (This was basically to please the trade unions to keep the guard in charge of door release - you can also release the doors directly from the cab). There's no local door release for the train manager - all platforms that 222s are potentially able to be scheduled to call at (including places like Hazel Grove and Irlam!) have SDO boards on the platform - if the driver has that in his window and selects the right number of coaches it's correctly platformed. If you just want to open one door to get out for any reason the staff doors by the buffet bar and in the kitchen can be opened independently.

To close them the train manager has full controls - having the key on selects the local door, you press the close button to close the rest of the doors and then turn the key off and straight on again to close the local door.

As for beeps and buzzes - the EMT 15x are generally buzzes with the exception of the retrofitted middle panels on the 156s that beep at the panel but buzz in the cab.

 

[physics34]

When the 171s first came out they had what sounded like a "quack-quack" lol

 

[bengley]

700s had a windows 98 error sound as the beep when first introduced. Recently a software update has been released and it's now a high pitched beep like on other modern stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

700s had a windows 98 error sound as the beep when first introduced. Recently a software update has been released and it's now a high pitched beep like on other modern stock.

They really have picked the sounds out of random folders on their computers, haven't they? Given that the manual announcement tone is nicked from Nederlandse Spoorwegen as well...

As an aside, Indian Railways use the Windows "descending chime" sound that you might remember from Windows 3.0 on startup as their announcement tone.

 

[HowardGWR]

Thanks for various replies. I was on a Voyager and contrary to what has been stated, they were buzzes, not bleeps. The three buzzes could have been da pause dit dit. But they were more like dit dit dit to my ears. Probably 'familiarity breeding contempt' syndrome, but of course (I looked it up on Wikipedia, there is an entry for this stuff there) there is a three buzz code that means something else, so perhaps staff need to be careful.

 

[bengley]

They really have picked the sounds out of random folders on their computers, haven't they? Given that the manual announcement tone is nicked from Nederlandse Spoorwegen as well...

As an aside, Indian Railways use the Windows "descending chime" sound that you might remember from Windows 3.0 on startup as their announcement tone.

Don't get me started on that announcement tone. I HATE it. I sit there waiting with my finger on the PTT button for seemingly eternity until the chime has played and speak comes up on the display.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for various replies. I was on a Voyager and contrary to what has been stated, they were buzzes, not bleeps.

Depends what you mean by buzz or bleep, I'd call them low pitch bleeps. But then to me a buzzer is a mechanical device similar to a bell (which can typically produce only one tone), whereas a bleep is an electronically generated tone.

As another similar aside (I'm good at this sometimes ) the new Metrolink tram "toooot" is a sound sample from one of the old trams (which had actual air horns) played from a speaker. Tram bells are usually synthesized now as well, some very obviously so. And I *think* the "ding" is synthesized on the newest Arriva buses, it certainly sounds like it is.

 

[221129]

Thanks for various replies. I was on a Voyager and contrary to what has been stated, they were buzzes, not bleeps. The three buzzes could have been da pause dit dit. But they were more like dit dit dit to my ears. Probably 'familiarity breeding contempt' syndrome, but of course (I looked it up on Wikipedia, there is an entry for this stuff there) there is a three buzz code that means something else, so perhaps staff need to be careful.

Definitely a bleep. And would definitely have been a 1-2 code. Unless it was a double set joining.

 

[Sprinter153]

I'd love to know why, it looks like a right faff.

165/166/168 have a similar procedure though it can only be initiated from an intermediate cab in the formation.

On HSTs we are required to make very long beeps, this is to do with ensuring that the communication is correctly carried through the jumper and to the power car. As HSTs have no interlock miscommunication is high risk (for the same reason if we are at a stand and need to speak to the driver we must pull the passcom first to prevent the driver mishearing 3-3 as 2 or 6)

Class 80x units also have a buzzer rather than a 'beep' , which surprised me.

 

[BestWestern]

The ten-bell closure procedure (driver closing under instruction) is actually the best way of doing it if the driver also has the controls to release the doors. Funnily enough this applies to the Thames Turbos and Electrostars. If the guard can close doors by themselves but not open them (as per the Electrostar saloon panels etc.), then if they close the doors in error when the driver has left the train, perhaps to deal with a fault, then the driver has to go down to the cab and release the doors again. However, with ten bells, the driver will not close the doors unless they are just as ready as the guard is.

The Driver will simply use a crew door, surely? I'm struggling to think of what 'ten bells' stock requires the Driver to enter/exit the train through a public door, and of course even if he did he has the option of using a butterfly vavle or egress.

The Guard should be closing the doors, and he should be in a position to reopen them immediately if need be. He is standing on the platform and is best placed to assess what is happening. 'Ten bells' is time consuming, faff nonsense!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Guard should be closing the doors, and he should be in a position to reopen them immediately if need be. He is standing on the platform as is in best placed to assess what is happening. 'Ten bells' is time consuming, faff nonsense!

If it's not DOO I agree - the 10 bell thing is a massive faff. I do agree with driver release as it saves time and makes revenue protection and customer service easier, but a full guard panel makes a lot more sense on guarded trains.

I suspect the only reason VT got away with such a faffy procedure without union objection was that anything was an improvement over Mk2s operationally.

 

[BestWestern]

That or he can use the passenger close button. What the key does (among other things) is prevents a "close" signal from the cab closing that door.

So operation of the passenger close button causes the local door function to cease even with the Guard's door key still turned?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So operation of the passenger close button causes the local door function to cease even with the Guard's door key still turned?

I don't *think* so, the passenger controls remain active at that door while the key is in, I believe.

I half recall the key may have three positions, off / signal buzzer active / local door release, but I can't find a photo of one to confirm - anyone know? (There are loads of photos of Voyager cabs but none of the door panels I can find).

 

[BestWestern]

That would certainly make sense. I'm not sure a photo would help, from memory there is just a green button and a rather annonymous, unmarked key slot!?

 

[507 001]

That would make sense - but does anyone know what any of the modern pre-nationalisation stock (Liverpool, Shenfield) had? Or LT?

Class 502 and 503 (Southport and Wirral EMUs respectively) had bells.

LT 1938 stock also had bells, I believe the 'Right away' bell code on LUL was a single ding though.

 

[221129]

I don't *think* so, the passenger controls remain active at that door while the key is in, I believe.

I half recall the key may have three positions, off / signal buzzer active / local door release, but I can't find a photo of one to confirm - anyone know? (There are loads of photos of Voyager cabs but none of the door panels I can find).

It doesn't the key is either vertical (inactive) or Horizontal (Active) Twisting the key back to off will NOT on it's own close the local door.

 

[cactustwirly]

The Guard should be closing the doors, and he should be in a position to reopen them immediately if need be. He is standing on the platform and is best placed to assess what is happening. 'Ten bells' is time consuming, faff nonsense!

Surely 10 bells is safer as there is a lower chance of human error, since you have 2 pairs of eyes, to check that it's safe to open/close the doors.

Personally I think the best method of door operation is DCO, since it gives the guard a chance to finish revenue duties etc

 

[221129]

I disagree, 10 bells is safer as there is a lower chance of human error, since you have 2 pairs of eyes, to check that it's safe to open/close the doors.

Where does the second pair of eyes come from with closing?