Coventry to Leicester direct - but how?

[HowardGWR]

An article in the Hinckley Times has the councillor enthusing about a restoration of this route.

County and borough councillor and transport improvement campaigner, David Bill, said: “If the proposals laid out in the Midlands Connect programme are adopted then the direct rail service between Leicester and Coventry will be restored, putting back what was lost when the West Coast Main Line was upgraded a few years ago.
“The advantages to Hinckley travellers are obvious as it could result in direct connections to Nottingham in the north and Leamington and the south-west in the other direction.
“I very much support this move as I have been in support of a direct Coventry-Nottingham service for many years.

link follows:
http://www.hinckleytimes.net/news/local-news/rail-link-between-coventry-leicester-13911801

There used to be a southern curve at Anker Mill at Nuneaton under the main WCML (I see from an old OS map).

Is that what is envisaged? Otherwise you have to reverse, it would seem.

 

[alistairlees]

I don't know if it is what is envisaged, or where the funding would come from, but I have often thought that a city to city link from Leicester to Coventry, utilising this trackbed (you can see it from the WCML) would be very useful. No need to stop at the little stations, just do Coventry - Hinckley - Leicester. I know there are not enough bays at Coventry and probably questions about capacity at Leicester too but the service between two close cities (just under 23 miles in a straight line) is basically terrible. According to Google it's 41 minutes by road (M69) now, though no doubt much more in the rush hour, so a service that took ~40 minutes would be about right.

I don't know where they got the bit about closing in 2004 because of WCML modernisation though. It was certainly gone by the mid 70s, probably earlier.

 

[Rob F]

I don't know if it is what is envisaged, or where the funding would come from, but I have often thought that a city to city link from Leicester to Coventry, utilising this trackbed (you can see it from the WCML) would be very useful. No need to stop at the little stations, just do Coventry - Hinckley - Leicester. I know there are not enough bays at Coventry and probably questions about capacity at Leicester too but the service between two close cities (just under 23 miles in a straight line) is basically terrible. According to Google it's 41 minutes by road (M69) now, though no doubt much more in the rush hour, so a service that took ~40 minutes would be about right.

I don't know where they got the bit about closing in 2004 because of WCML modernisation though. It was certainly gone by the mid 70s, probably earlier.

There was a Nottingham-Coventry service that was finished because of the WCML route modernisation. It crossed the WCML on the level and reversed in Nuneaton.

Rob

 

[mchunt]

An article in the Hinckley Times has the councillor enthusing about a restoration of this route.


link follows:
http://www.hinckleytimes.net/news/local-news/rail-link-between-coventry-leicester-13911801

There used to be a southern curve at Anker Mill at Nuneaton under the main WCML (I see from an old OS map).

Is that what is envisaged? Otherwise you have to reverse, it would seem.

Sure the service when I used to use it in early 90s reversed at nuneaton. Coventry service was the stopping service and the Birmingham service was semi fast missing Narborough and south Wigston. Quite often used x69 bus though as was comfier, left bus station so no walk to station and Explorer ticket made it a lot cheaper.

 

[The Planner]

Its part of the wider NUCKLE plans, it will need an underpass or a very time consuming reverse move at Abbey Jn.

 

[edwin_m]

Made it into one of the diagrams in the East Midlands Route Strategy IIRC.

 

[alistairlees]

There was a Nottingham-Coventry service that was finished because of the WCML route modernisation. It crossed the WCML on the level and reversed in Nuneaton.

Rob

Ah, I thought the article was referring to physical infrastructure. I had forgotten about the reversing service at Nuneaton. Doing that again would provide far too slow a service from Coventry to Leicester (at least 10 minutes must be lost in reversing, picking up passengers, the extra distance, and waiting for a path even when it isn't that busy on the WCML), and it's not practical or desirable to do this any more with how busy the WCML is now.

 

[paddy1]

Nuneaton is too important as a traffic centre from both Coventry and Leicester to bypass. Also, I doubt that that there would be sufficient traffic to generate acceptable loadings on a limited stop Coventry-Leicester service alone, even with the long distance feed at either end. As well as that, a third hourly service between Nuneaton and Leicester would be beneficial in alleviating some of overcrowding issues on the Birmingham-Leicester service by covering some of the local stops on this service, allowing all Birmingham- Leicester trains to run limited stop. This is how it worked prior to the Coventry-Nottingham service being withdrawn in 2004 due to the removal of the crossovers at Nuneaton station. This service was well loaded and successful primarily because it served a combination of point to point, local intermediate and long distance via feed at either end flows.

 

[MarkyT]

This is how it worked prior to the Coventry-Nottingham service being withdrawn in 2004 due to the removal of the crossovers at Nuneaton station. This service was well loaded and successful primarily because it served a combination of point to point, local intermediate and long distance via feed at either end flows.

The crossovers were reinstated sometime after further resignalling. Agree not ideal having to cross the WCML on the flat but perhaps if some means of placing the reversing bay 'in the middle' of the station layout could be devised then only one direction of trafffic need be crossed in each discrete movement. Also fast traffic passing through will eventually reduce with HS2

 

[edwin_m]

The crossovers were reinstated sometime after further resignalling. Agree not ideal having to cross the WCML on the flat but perhaps if some means of placing the reversing bay 'in the middle' of the station layout could be devised then only one direction of trafffic need be crossed in each discrete movement. Also fast traffic passing through will eventually reduce with HS2

I think with the increases in WCML traffic it's unlikely that the former crossing moves would be possible now, and putting a platform in the middle would involve re-aligning (presumably) the slow lines and moving platforms around so would be very expensive.

I think the only practicable way to do a through service would be to reverse at Abbey, where perhaps a turnback siding could be added. Even if trains only stop on one of their two passes of the station this is quite a time penalty.

 

[The Planner]

Crossing on the flat would be considered too much of a performance risk to do and running up to Abbey, reversing and back over the flyover would add a good 8 minutes to a schedule. You could walk from platform 1 to 7 in that time.

 

[edwin_m]

Crossing on the flat would be considered too much of a performance risk to do and running up to Abbey, reversing and back over the flyover would add a good 8 minutes to a schedule. You could walk from platform 1 to 7 in that time.

Yes, but if the same train reverses and continues then there is no risk of a connection being either very long or missed. Last time I travelled that way the connection from Leicester to Coventry was about 5min but would have been an hour wait if missed, but coming back there was a 40min wait. Clearly doubling the frequency of a Coventry-Nuneaton shuttle would help with this somewhat.

I imagine an extra train per hour could be run between Leicester and Nuneaton without creating huge capacity issues, perhaps linking it with the Ivanhoe service if there isn't platform capacity there for a turnaround. But getting another one into Birmingham could be problematic at least unless/until the curves into Moor Street are built. Coventry is a possible alternative.

 

[HowardGWR]

Looking at the map, might not the station be moved south of Wheat St in order to create a triangle station, as in other places where one has a crossing point of major lines? On the old map, the west to east curve I mentioned in the OP, appeared to pass under the main north south line. Is that bridge still there?

 

[The Planner]

No one is going to go to the expense of moving a station for that.

 

[Ianno87]

A good first step will be if/when Coventry-Nuneaton goes half-hourly. At least removes the risk of having to wait a full hour in the event of a missed conmection.

I agree that reversing via Abbey Jn would just take too long and start to kill the attractiveness of a direct service in the first place.

Reinstating a through service via a flat crossing move may only become realistic capacity-wise once the bulk of Pendolino traffic disappears off the Trent Valley post-HS2 Phase 1. The crossovers to do so would still pose an interesting track design challenge - the Fasts look nicely canted for 125mph running through South Jn, so wouldn't be surprised if killing the through line speed is necessary to reinstate them (I'd still expect there to be a couple of reasonably fast Trent Valley services retained to keep markets like Milton Keynes<>North West satisfied)

 

[HowardGWR]

No one is going to go to the expense of moving a station for that.

How about then a new small station with a shuttle bus that would run to the main one, perhaps via the centre where pax may prefer to be set down / picked up, as at Yeovil? That could also be done at Bedford St Johns on the E/W line.

 

[Class 170101]

Does anyone know if the trackbed of the link is still there and in NR hands?

As far as a service between the two cities is concerned if it means avoiding Nuneaton would it still be viable on its own? The way to improve the service to / from Nuneaton surely is to run more trains between Leicester and New Street and Coventry and Nuneaton on the existing routes and leave the new service to focus on the Coventry to Leicester flow?

 

[alistairlees]

Nuneaton is too important as a traffic centre from both Coventry and Leicester to bypass. Also, I doubt that that there would be sufficient traffic to generate acceptable loadings on a limited stop Coventry-Leicester service alone, even with the long distance feed at either end.

No it (Nuneaton) isn't. The populations are:
- Coventry 350,000 (see Wikipedia or Coventry City Council website)
- Leicester 329,000 (Wikipedia)
- Nuneaton 70,000 (Wikipedia)

For two cities of this size less than 25 miles apart, the service is terrible. 68 minutes in one direction, 48 minutes in the other (better connections!). The railway should be aiming for a direct service every 30 minutes, taking around 30 minutes. Driving times seem to be between 35 minutes and 70 minutes (according to Google and depending whether you are in the rush hour), so with a service taking ~30 minutes, it would be successful.

Going via Nuneaton (rather than a new curve from the Coventry line to the Leicester line to the south) adds a stop, an extra mile, a need to go north out the station into a new siding, then head back the other way through Nuneaton again having crossed over the WCML north of the station, and waiting time for WCML paths. So that's probably a 15-minute penalty at least, as well as an irregular timetable, all to serve a town which is way smaller than the two cities and already has a direct service from both which would be unaffected. Taking the Leicester to Coventry journey back up to at least 45 minutes would make it as unattractive as now, and therefore entirely pointless; the aim is to generate a new successful flow, not hamper it with history or the 'need' to serve a small town.

And could ~30 minutes Leicester to Coventry be done? It looks like it. Journey times on a weekday are:
- Nuneaton to Leicester 21 to 24 mins (non-stop), but only 18 minutes (non-stop) the other way.
- Nuneaton to Coventry 22 minutes (three stops)

You could probably save 1 minute by not going into Nuneaton but taking a new curve (if it were to be constructed) south of Nuneaton, and a further 5 minutes by not stopping at the three intermediate stations, so 34 minutes direct non-stop service from Leicester to Coventry. They are about 24 miles apart directly, or 28.5 miles by rail via Nuneaton. Missing out Nuneaton with the aforementioned curve would make that about 27.5 miles. So still not a very good average speed (about 48.5mph), but with probable room for improvement with line speeds to get down to that magical 30 minutes.

30 minutes would be good as it's very marketable, has an appreciable advantage over the car (esp. in rush hours), and just isn't that much time really. Some nice EMUs (not D-trains, sorry!) are what's needed.

I'm sure people will come up with thousands of reasons why this can't happen (cost, Network Rail GRIP process, Network Rail generally, lack of capacity somewhere or other, no suitable stock, every train must stop at every station in case there's a passenger or two, etc.), and I'm not suggesting there are not hurdles to overcome (and they are pretty tough ones too).

However, we need strategic thinking and vision for what we want, and that's the only way we will get a rail network that is worthy of the name.

 

[alistairlees]

On the old map, the west to east curve I mentioned in the OP, appeared to pass under the main north south line. Is that bridge still there?

Yes, it's still there. I cross over it frequently. It looks a bit low in clearance, but it has probably been filled in a bit. I imagine it could dug out a bit if necessary, without too much disruption (a bit of foundation shoring up, perhaps). But far less than any other option to cross the WCML. Most importantly no signalling or track layout changes on WCML.

 

[alistairlees]

Does anyone know if the trackbed of the link is still there and in NR hands?

Don't know about ownership, but it seems to be vacant / scrubland today. No doubt someone will build 10 houses on it shortly and it will then be deemed 'impossible'.

 

[Starmill]

No it (Nuneaton) isn't. The populations are:
- Coventry 350,000 (see Wikipedia or Coventry City Council website)
- Leicester 329,000 (Wikipedia)
- Nuneaton 70,000 (Wikipedia)

For two cities of this size less than 25 miles apart, the service is terrible. 68 minutes in one direction, 48 minutes in the other (better connections!). The railway should be aiming for a direct service every 30 minutes, taking around 30 minutes. Driving times seem to be between 35 minutes and 70 minutes (according to Google and depending whether you are in the rush hour), so with a service taking ~30 minutes, it would be successful.

I completely agree. Unfortunately, there are quite a number of examples of this across the country where the railway is either a terrible option or just not really an option at all.

Bournemouth to Exeter
Southport to Preston


If you consider some smaller places (many of which are only a little smaller than Coventry and Leicester):

Chelmsford to Basildon (this one is especially bad - they are only 16 miles apart but 1h16ish and 2 changes)
Northampton to Bedford
Hamilton to East Kilbride
Northwich to Crewe (admittedly there's Hartford nearby)
Newark to Mansfield
Chesterfield to Mansfield
Kidderminster to Bromsgrove
Wolverhampton to Walsall (admittedly good bus service)
Truro to Newquay (okish bus service)
Corby to Peterborough
Cambridge to Bedford (I think there's an express bus?)
Northampton to Wellingborough
Worcester to Cheltenham and Gloucester (direct trains but only 2-hourly??)

After much consideration I couldn't think of any other places as large or as close as Leicester and Coventry.

 

[Class 170101]

Oddly Chelmsford to Basildon is actually one change at Stratford at weekends. However with two changes via Romford and Upminster TfL route it can be done in 58 minutes.

It should be noted however there is an express Bus between the two places journey time 40 minutes (it runs between Stansted Airport and Basildon via Chelmsford.

 

[Starmill]

Oddly Chelmsford to Basildon is actually one change at Stratford at weekends. However with two changes via Romford and Upminster TfL route it can be done in 58 minutes.

It should be noted however there is an express Bus between the two places journey time 40 minutes (it runs between Stansted Airport and Basildon via Chelmsford.

Changing at Romford and Upminster is only possible off-peak as there is no morning or evening peak direct service between Chelmsford and Romford, there is only 1tph off-peak. I didn't spot any journeys of under an hour but I was probably just not looking at the right times of day.

It is only a 20 minute drive and is under 17 miles so I cannot imagine that 58 minute train journey would appeal - and the train journey time is often longer than that.

 

[Qwerty133]

No it (Nuneaton) isn't. The populations are:
- Coventry 350,000 (see Wikipedia or Coventry City Council website)
- Leicester 329,000 (Wikipedia)
- Nuneaton 70,000 (Wikipedia)

For two cities of this size less than 25 miles apart, the service is terrible. 68 minutes in one direction, 48 minutes in the other (better connections!). The railway should be aiming for a direct service every 30 minutes, taking around 30 minutes. Driving times seem to be between 35 minutes and 70 minutes (according to Google and depending whether you are in the rush hour), so with a service taking ~30 minutes, it would be successful.

Going via Nuneaton (rather than a new curve from the Coventry line to the Leicester line to the south) adds a stop, an extra mile, a need to go north out the station into a new siding, then head back the other way through Nuneaton again having crossed over the WCML north of the station, and waiting time for WCML paths. So that's probably a 15-minute penalty at least, as well as an irregular timetable, all to serve a town which is way smaller than the two cities and already has a direct service from both which would be unaffected. Taking the Leicester to Coventry journey back up to at least 45 minutes would make it as unattractive as now, and therefore entirely pointless; the aim is to generate a new successful flow, not hamper it with history or the 'need' to serve a small town.

And could ~30 minutes Leicester to Coventry be done? It looks like it. Journey times on a weekday are:
- Nuneaton to Leicester 21 to 24 mins (non-stop), but only 18 minutes (non-stop) the other way.
- Nuneaton to Coventry 22 minutes (three stops)

You could probably save 1 minute by not going into Nuneaton but taking a new curve (if it were to be constructed) south of Nuneaton, and a further 5 minutes by not stopping at the three intermediate stations, so 34 minutes direct non-stop service from Leicester to Coventry. They are about 24 miles apart directly, or 28.5 miles by rail via Nuneaton. Missing out Nuneaton with the aforementioned curve would make that about 27.5 miles. So still not a very good average speed (about 48.5mph), but with probable room for improvement with line speeds to get down to that magical 30 minutes.

30 minutes would be good as it's very marketable, has an appreciable advantage over the car (esp. in rush hours), and just isn't that much time really. Some nice EMUs (not D-trains, sorry!) are what's needed.

I'm sure people will come up with thousands of reasons why this can't happen (cost, Network Rail GRIP process, Network Rail generally, lack of capacity somewhere or other, no suitable stock, every train must stop at every station in case there's a passenger or two, etc.), and I'm not suggesting there are not hurdles to overcome (and they are pretty tough ones too).

However, we need strategic thinking and vision for what we want, and that's the only way we will get a rail network that is worthy of the name.

I imagine any such service would stop at Narborough and Hinckley, and probably South Wigston even if it was to avoid Nuneaton. Both Hinckley and Narborough are in need of, and are campaigning for extra services. Narborough is actually the station between Nuneaton and Leicester with the highest usage figures, and quite frankly has been neglected for far too long. It is just idiotic that there is still only ticketing purchasing facilities for 6 hours and 20 minutes a day Monday-Saturday, especially combined with relitively short connections at Leicester for London and Sheffield, and the very low likelyhood of any guard leaving their cab in the 10 minutes before leaving a train for a 25 minute break (quite reasonably) meaning tickets are very rarely sold on board in that direction.

 

[Ianno87]

Getting an extra hourly service into Leicester will be tricky until it has some kind of substantial capacity upgrade the extra service could hang off of.

Also need to be mindful of freight path requirements both via Bedworth (Southampton-WCML/West Mids) and via Hinckley (Aggregate/F2N)

If you did have a 'not via Nuneaton' service, I would envisage it calling as a minimum at Hinckley. Hinckley<>Coventry would be popular if provided with a direct service.

 

[HowardGWR]

I thought my suggestion would not be taken seriously but what we have to think, strategically, is 'would there be a positive case for a direct service between these origins and destinations'. What is the market for Coventry to Leicester direct? How many now are forced to take the car? If the answer is a positive one, then it should be done. I cannot see any worse justification on this one, then I can for East West Rail.
There is a defeatist attitude among rail strategic management that these things cannot happen. It is often repeated here on this forum, and I think I understand why. The amount of reconnection work, if it were authorised in principle, would be stupendously huge and the legal stuff is daunting nowadays and takes years, decades even.

 

[Ianno87]

While I think Coventry-Leicester is a pretty strong local flow (definitely for the student/education market) I could see it being popular for some longer distance flows.

For example, puts Coventry one change from Loughborough and Nottingham - a good student flow (without having to go via New St), and similarly Leicester one change from Oxford/Reading. Both probably faster than via New St, assuming half decent connections.

 

[Starmill]

It seems unlikely that Oxford to Nottingham would really be quicker that way but it's a possibility. It would certainly serve to improve journey opportunities and increase capacity on that axis.

Coventry to Nuneaton almost certainly a viable flow for direct, semi-fast trains. And, as a result of government policy, there's almost certainly no money to provide the infrastructure that would allow that.

 

[The Planner]

Oxford to Nottingham has been tried before and could never be pathed at a decent journey time. I still don't understand why people are suggesting crossing Nuneaton on the flat, you would never do it.

 

[alistairlees]

I thought my suggestion would not be taken seriously but what we have to think, strategically, is 'would there be a positive case for a direct service between these origins and destinations'. What is the market for Coventry to Leicester direct? How many now are forced to take the car? If the answer is a positive one, then it should be done. I cannot see any worse justification on this one, then I can for East West Rail.
There is a defeatist attitude among rail strategic management that these things cannot happen. It is often repeated here on this forum, and I think I understand why. The amount of reconnection work, if it were authorised in principle, would be stupendously huge and the legal stuff is daunting nowadays and takes years, decades even.

I pretty much agree with all you say here. I don't think the infrastructure work is at all huge though - rather on the small side really. If Network Rail can build an additional grade-separated link north of Nuneaton that connects with the WCML and gets used by just a few freights a day, surely they can build a similar length chord (single or double track) that doesn't connect with the WCML (so rather less complex / disruptive) and that gets used by 30 passenger trains a day (assuming every 30 minutes each way)? Not "stupendously huge" though, I think.