Dispatch process in DOO with a dispatcher present on the platform

[pt_mad]

I was just wondering, what is the dispatch process on a DOO service where there is a dispatcher on the platform (person in charge of platform/platform staff) but where there is no CD (close doors) indicator or RA (Right Away) indicator on the platform.

Are there any stations where this scenario exists and where dispatchers are present on the platforms at all times but without RA and CD?

 

[RichardKing]

I was just wondering, what is the dispatch process on a DOO service where there is a dispatcher on the platform (person in charge of platform/platform staff) but where there is no CD (close doors) indicator or RA (Right Away) indicator on the platform.

Are there any stations where this scenario exists and where dispatched are present on the platforms at all times but without RA and CD?

At Eastbourne, all 377s, which are now all DOO, are dispatched by platform staff. The station itself has no CD/RA indicators, so there will always be someone at the driver's cab to give the close door and right away signal.

This is the case at many stations on the Southern coast now. Previously, the CD/RA signal was given to the Conductor (therefore, in many circumstances, requiring only one dispatcher). Once DOO was expanded, at stations such as Lewes, which has two curved platforms, a second dispatcher was required to be able to view the entire length of the train and then to relay the CD/RA message to the dispatcher at the cab (the driver now self-dispatches this station).

 

[Bromley boy]

I was just wondering, what is the dispatch process on a DOO service where there is a dispatcher on the platform (person in charge of platform/platform staff) but where there is no CD (close doors) indicator or RA (Right Away) indicator on the platform.

Are there any stations where this scenario exists and where dispatchers are present on the platforms at all times but without RA and CD?

“Bat and flag” generally.

The dispatcher stands adjacent to the drivers cab, gets a signal from his colleague further back and gives the driver a white bat/light to close doors. Undertakes safety check and then gives a green flag/light for “right away”.

This is the fall back at CD/RA locations where an error is made - for instance giving RA vice CD (RA cannot be cancelled once given, until the signal goes back to red).

 

[pt_mad]

Thank you for the replies so far.

So could this method of dispatch be in use with only one dispatcher present on the platform? (As long as they were alongside the driver's cab). Or must there be a minimum of two?

I was just thinking if this was implemented at some stations, it may put the dispatcher essentially at the wrong end of the platform to be able to shout stand clear to late comers, if the dispatcher had to always be alongside the driver's cab.

Also if the dispatcher was the same person who was helping an assisted passenger onto the train, I assume they would then have to walk to the driver's cab to begin the dispatch process even if they had assisted the passenger into say first class if it was at the rear?

 

[swt_passenger]

At Southampton, Southern are DOO and use a man with bat and flag at the cab as there are no CD/RA indicators. The dispatcher is part of the normal SWR platform staff.

 

[otomous]

Thank you for the replies so far.

So could this method of dispatch be in use with only one dispatcher present on the platform? (As long as they were alongside the driver's cab). Or must there be a minimum of two?

I was just thinking if this was implemented at some stations, it may put the dispatcher essentially at the wrong side of the platform to be able to shout stand clear to late comers, if the dispatcher had to always be alongside the driver's cab.

Also if the dispatcher was the same person who was helping an assisted passenger onto the train, I assume they would then have to walk to the driver's cab to begin the dispatch process even if they had assisted the passenger into say first class if it was at the rear?

One person can dispatch if the situation lends itself to that method - usually short trains on empty short platforms.

Usually if it is going to be difficult for one person to warn people away, it wouldn't be a one person dispatch

Yes that could very well be the same person and yes they would have to assist then dispatch regardless of train length

 

[Mojo]

So could this method of dispatch be in use with only one dispatcher present on the platform? (As long as they were alongside the driver's cab).

They wouldn't need to dispatch from alongside the driving cab; I have seen drivers look back out of the cab window to platform staff dispatching from positions away from the cab at Slough (not sure if staff still use this method here it was 5+ years ago) and also on the Down Main at Stratford.

3 Min 41 Sec of this video shows dispatch staff at St Albans dispatching from the middle of the train too

(I understand TL Rail UK has recently withdrawn dispatch staff at this, and many other, locations).

 

[APUK002]

They wouldn't need to dispatch from alongside the driving cab; I have seen drivers look back out of the cab window to platform staff dispatching from positions away from the cab at Slough (not sure if staff still use this method here it was 5+ years ago) and also on the Down Main at Stratford.

3 Min 41 Sec of this video shows dispatch staff at St Albans dispatching from the middle of the train too

(I understand TL Rail UK has recently withdrawn dispatch staff at this, and many other, locations).

This video is quite old, GTR is fully DO! Drivers despatchon there own mostly I think(pre 700’#) but since 700’s came platform buddies with despatch bats have returned.

 

[Mojo]

This video is quite old, GTR is fully DO! Drivers despatchon there own mostly I think(pre 700’#) but since 700’s came platform buddies with despatch bats have returned.

The age of the video is irrelevant, the point of including it is to show the point that the dispatcher using bat and flag doesn’t always have to be next to the cab.

I’m also unsure what you mean about “GTR is fully DO.” Do you mean DOO? The video only shows DOO dispatch methods as First Capital Connect who made the video only operated DOO services and this is referred to in the opening bit of the video. Also not all GTR services are DOO.

 

[APUK002]

Yes I meant DOO, they don’t have any guards! Thameslink is fully DOO,Great northern is fully DOO,southern not sure Gatwick Express is fully DOO.

 

[king_walnut]

At Eastbourne, all 377s, which are now all DOO, are dispatched by platform staff. The station itself has no CD/RA indicators, so there will always be someone at the driver's cab to give the close door and right away signal.

This is the case at many stations on the Southern coast now. Previously, the CD/RA signal was given to the Conductor (therefore, in many circumstances, requiring only one dispatcher). Once DOO was expanded, at stations such as Lewes, which has two curved platforms, a second dispatcher was required to be able to view the entire length of the train and then to relay the CD/RA message to the dispatcher at the cab (the driver now self-dispatches this station).

Why did they remove platform dispatch from Lewes, but Eastbourne still needs it?

Seems ridiculous that a driver self-dispatching a 12 car on a curved platform is absolutely fine but a 4 car at Eastbourne can't go without it.

 

[pt_mad]

This video is quite old, GTR is fully DO! Drivers despatchon there own mostly I think(pre 700’#) but since 700’s came platform buddies with despatch bats have returned.

What do these platform buddies do?
And was this something that was deemed necessary with class 700s or was it GTR that introduced dispatch buddies?

And how does it work with dispatchers that have bats on the London Underground? How does it work?

 

[king_walnut]

Yes I meant DOO, they don’t have any guards! Thameslink is fully DOO,Great northern is fully DOO,southern not sure Gatwick Express is fully DOO.

Southern is only DOO on the 377's. The 171's and 313's still need a conductor.

 

[Mojo]

Yes I meant DOO, they don’t have any guards! Thameslink is fully DOO,Great northern is fully DOO,southern not sure Gatwick Express is fully DOO.

Yes they do, certain Southern services still have guards.

 

[RichardKing]

Why did they remove platform dispatch from Lewes, but Eastbourne still needs it?

Seems ridiculous that a driver self-dispatching a 12 car on a curved platform is absolutely fine but a 4 car at Eastbourne can't go without it.

As with most things GTR have done, I have absolutely no idea of the reason! Platform staff are still needed for the two morning attachments and one evening detachment, but, come the December 2018 timetable changes, I expect that this will no longer be the case and any staff at the station will be agency (and there'll be far less of them).

I think the only time platform staff are involved in dispatch is when 171s are terminated on platform 2 or 4 (usually because of late-running), although I've noticed that most terminating 171s are now signalled to platform 5, where a dispatcher is not required for any movements.

I won't get us deep into the subject of DOO here, but if someone was to go under the train once it took power at Lewes, the driver would have no way of knowing.

 

[Mojo]

And how does it work with dispatchers that have bats on the London Underground? How does it work?

LU doesn’t have dispatch staff, the staff with the bats and remote public address that you see are to assist with dwell time management (and as part of risk mitigation against PTI incidents) and are scheduled to be on certain platforms at certain times of the day as determined by business needs. The Train Operator is responsible for checking the PTI and departing as and when he feels appropriate.

On infrequent occasions staff might be requested to provide assisted dispatch, for example if any part of the train stops within the platform and the Train Operator cannot see the PTI from the cab (perhaps due to equipment fault, station overrun, alarm activation when train leaving and so on), this would be accomplished by the Train Operator and staff member on the platform agreeing which section of the platform to check, and then deciding between themselves how it will be indicated. It is usually easiest for the staff on the platform to dial the train radio on their handheld radio but this is up to the staff to decide.

 

[Bald Rick]

They wouldn't need to dispatch from alongside the driving cab; I have seen drivers look back out of the cab window to platform staff dispatching from positions away from the cab at Slough (not sure if staff still use this method here it was 5+ years ago) and also on the Down Main at Stratford.

3 Min 41 Sec of this video shows dispatch staff at St Albans dispatching from the middle of the train too

(I understand TL Rail UK has recently withdrawn dispatch staff at this, and many other, locations).

That video is a little curious - St Albans was CD/RA till it went to full 700s. So it must have been done purely for the video. It also must have been a Sunday morning!

At St Albans I'm reasonably sure Drivers despatch themselves now. The guys on the platform are there for announcements and to blow the whistle to encourage the punters.

 

[king_walnut]

I won't get us deep into the subject of DOO here, but if someone was to go under the train once it took power at Lewes, the driver would have no way of knowing.

How would the driver know if someone went under at Gatwick or Bridges after RA was given and it took power? Can platform staff halt the train somehow once it's set off?

 

[hassaanhc]

They wouldn't need to dispatch from alongside the driving cab; I have seen drivers look back out of the cab window to platform staff dispatching from positions away from the cab at Slough (not sure if staff still use this method here it was 5+ years ago) and also on the Down Main at Stratford.

I've seen that method being used at both locations recently. Although on the GWML a number of platforms have no dispatch equipment or staff and drivers have to stick their head out otherwise won't be able to see anything, so it is the norm there really. This includes the Down Relief at busy stations such as Southall and Hayes & Harlington

 

[pt_mad]

That video is a little curious - St Albans was CD/RA till it went to full 700s. So it must have been done purely for the video. It also must have been a Sunday morning!

At St Albans I'm reasonably sure Drivers despatch themselves now. The guys on the platform are there for announcements and to blow the whistle to encourage the punters.

I'm intrigued by this! Are the guys on the platforms the same thing described a few posts above as dispatch buddies?

And are they there full time at some GTR stations? Are they ex dispatch staff?


Also re: staff with bats on London Underground. What does the bat indicate, to who, and when do they raise it?

 

[otomous]

They wouldn't need to dispatch from alongside the driving cab; I have seen drivers look back out of the cab window to platform staff dispatching from positions away from the cab at Slough (not sure if staff still use this method here it was 5+ years ago) and also on the Down Main at Stratford.

3 Min 41 Sec of this video shows dispatch staff at St Albans dispatching from the middle of the train too

(I understand TL Rail UK has recently withdrawn dispatch staff at this, and many other, locations).

That depends on the stock. Some cabs are not designed for the driver to loo, out of the side window. 455s may be dispatched by the driver looking back for the bat/light at some locations, 377s must be dispatched at the cab by staff.

Hopefully all of this will demonstrate how confusing DOO dispatch can be as there are many inconsistencies, whereas guard dispatch was simple for the driver - driver opens, guard closes. NOT less safe due to “not knowing” who is closing the doors as the RSSB, DFT etc have claimed.

 

[pt_mad]

That depends on the stock. Some cabs are not designed for the driver to loo, out of the side window. 455s may be dispatched by the driver looking back for the bat/light at some locations

Is this what used to happen on MK2 intercity services which had no bell buzzer? I.e. guard would show a green indication to the driver who would look out of his/her window for the ready to start?

 

[Bromley boy]

How would the driver know if someone went under at Gatwick or Bridges after RA was given and it took power? Can platform staff halt the train somehow once it's set off?

Nope. Once RA is given that’s it, and it can’t be revoked.

The only realistic way a train is going to be stopped once RA is given is a passcom being pulled, as drivers are required to make an immediate emergency brake application if the passcom goes when any part of the train is in a station.

 

[Bromley boy]

They wouldn't need to dispatch from alongside the driving cab; I have seen drivers look back out of the cab window to platform staff dispatching from positions away from the cab at Slough (not sure if staff still use this method here it was 5+ years ago) and also on the Down Main at Stratford.

I wouldn’t make that blanket assumption - it will vary by location and quite possibly stock.

What you describe certainly is not an acceptable method of bat and flag dispatch, as far as my (ex southern region) TOC is concerned.

I am dispatched using the bat and flag method at several locations, around 30-50 times per week (on average), and 5 times today! Never once have I had a dispatcher attempt to give me a signal other than from directly outside the cab window. If they did so I would refuse to accept it (and wouldn’t see it as I wouldn’t be looking back from the cab, in any case).

This afternoon I was dispatched using this method in a 10 car ECS train and still the dispatcher had to walk to the cab window to give a green flag* - no white bat being necessary because doors were already closed and interlocked.

The only variation I’m aware of in my area (which includes GTR routes) would be dispatch of class 700s which has a modified procedure to allow the dispatcher to stand ahead of the cab and signal to the driver through the windscreen. This is because the side window isn’t large enough to look out of.

*”bat and flag” is now permissible using a bat that incorporates both white and green lights.

 

[superhands]

It all depends on company policy and local instructions back in the day silverlink metro only had platform staff (dispatchers) at euston and watford jct where dispatch would be CD and RA indicators. On Thameslink 317 and 319 would be dispatch with dispatch batons and green flags in daylight at Bedfrd Luton and St Albans there was no need for the dispatcher to walk to the drivers cab and one member of platform staff could dispatch an 8 car train. When trains with in cab cctv came around the dispacher would have to stand outside the cab to give the station work complete and right of way to the driver but not with every company. Great Northern is mostly CD RA but may have platform staff with bats and flags at some staffed stations. I think Banbury in the up direction which is Doo for Networkers and Turbostars dispatch bat to close doors and RA indicator

 

[pt_mad]

Is it Network Rail or the TOC who decides whether a staffed platform dispatch is required when in DOO mode? And is it decided primarily by safety, customer service reasons or business need (or lack of) ?

And when a member of platform staff is present, do the driver's CCTV dispatch cameras get switched off for that station? As I presume the driver doesn't have to watch those as well as the dispatcher?

 

[superhands]

I it's the TOC that decides and it's normally for safety. Great Northern got dispatch staff back at some stations due to bad lighting and the doo monitors being crap after the drivers raised there concerns, and another TOC got dispatch staff back to reduce dwell times in the peak.

Trains with in build CCtV the cameras stay on

 

[OxtedSignaller]

East Grinstead uses bat and flag as well. A lot of stations which retained or gained dispatch with the DOO roll out don’t have any of the infrastructure yet to support CD/RA

That depends on the stock. Some cabs are not designed for the driver to loo, out of the side window. 455s may be dispatched by the driver looking back for the bat/light at some locations, 377s must be dispatched at the cab by staff.

Hopefully all of this will demonstrate how confusing DOO dispatch can be as there are many inconsistencies, whereas guard dispatch was simple for the driver - driver opens, guard closes. NOT less safe due to “not knowing” who is closing the doors as the RSSB, DFT etc have claimed.

On Southern 455s are dispatched at the cab window. Look back was removed a good couple of years ago now because the company wanted a consistent dispatch policy with that of 377s.

Pretty sure that St Albans, Luton and Bedford have only had CD/RA indicators for around 3 years was installed prematurely as part of the Thameslink Programme and move to newer rolling stock even though they are not used anymore...

Surprising because CD/RA is not very common in the Southern area. Only places I can think having them are Gatwick, London Bridge and a couple of platforms at Victoria. However stations with a lot of dispatch like East Croydon, Clapham Junction, Three Bridges, Haywards Heath, Purley and so on only have RA. Surely it wouldn’t cost much more to add a CD.

 

[Mojo]

I wouldn’t make that blanket assumption - it will vary by location and quite possibly stock.

It wasn’t a blanket assumption at all; I was quoting and responding to a specific question whereby it was asked if there was only one dispatcher present they needed to be adjacent to the cab. The three examples I provided were just to show that this doesn’t always need to be the case, although of course this depends on local instructions as well as the stock.

Also re: staff with bats on London Underground. What does the bat indicate, to who, and when do they raise it?

I don’t think this is defined. I would say they are to show to the Train Operator that the staff on the platform thinks the train is ready to have the doors closed. They could also show customers on the platform the doors are soon to close as well.

 

[Fred26]

Hitchin used to dispatch 12-cars from the middle of the platform, because they only had one dispatcher and that was agreed to be safe. There is a line on the platform to indicate where the dispatcher should stand. The driver could either look out or use his DOO mirror to see the dispatcher.
That changed a couple of years ago (when GN hired the 321s). Hitchin's roster changed and they were given more staff. Now they dispatch one in the middle and one at the front.