GWR Turbo cascade progress to Bristol region services

[jayah]

I know every other Taunton to Cardifff Central is booked to use Platform 1 towards Cardiff on weekdays. This may cause problems when Turbos start using the route more regularly from the New Year for timetables and Platform allocations in Newport as a train from Holyhead comes in at the same time.

If that is true it looks a bit silly spending all that money on an extra up platform 4 only to have a restriction like that on rolling stock using the down platforms.

 

[PHILIPE]

If that is true it looks a bit silly spending all that money on an extra up platform 4 only to have a restriction like that on rolling stock using the down platforms.

I'm afraid your post just doesn't wash. Platform 4 has nothing to do with the issue. Although Down trains normally use 1 and 2 and Up 3 and 4 all platforms are bi-directional.

 

[Mag_seven]

There is an NR project to Gauge Clear several routes for the Class 16x series - Newport Platform 1 will be dealt with in due course.

 

[PHILIPE]

In the meantime you can shove the Cardiff Nottingham across to 4, the Holyhead to 3 and the Taunton to 2.

 

[jayah]

I'm afraid your post just doesn't wash. Platform 4 has nothing to do with the issue. Although Down trains normally use 1 and 2 and Up 3 and 4 all platforms are bi-directional.

In normal running 1,2 are down and 3,4 are up. Building a 4th platform only to have that flexible operation blown apart by having to shuffle everything up one platform because rolling stock now can't use platform 1 is pretty daft. The point of the platform 4 is to have two down and two up, so either you lose the second up platform, which was the whole point, or you have down Marches and down Tunnel trains trying to weave inside each other.

 

[Dai Corner]

In normal running 1,2 are down and 3,4 are up. Building a 4th platform only to have that flexible operation blown apart by having to shuffle everything up one platform because rolling stock now can't use platform 1 is pretty daft. The point of the platform 4 is to have two down and two up, so either you lose the second up platform, which was the whole point, or you have down Marches and down Tunnel trains trying to weave inside each other.

Or you could look at in another way. The flexible layout with four bi-directional platforms which has been provided means the temporary gauging issue can be worked around and not delay the introduction of the Turbos.

 

[jayah]

In the meantime you can shove the Cardiff Nottingham across to 4, the Holyhead to 3 and the Taunton to 2.

Any swaps from the island will cause long delays across the footbridge / lifts. The whole point is to have a plan that can cope with trains running a few minutes late.

At the moment, the down Taunton and London are both across 1,2 almost on top of each other. This only works because the Taunton runs RL and in this scenario would have to cross ML at Maindee or earlier. This would knock the down London for six, force the up London up 4.

 

[PHILIPE]

In normal running 1,2 are down and 3,4 are up. Building a 4th platform only to have that flexible operation blown apart by having to shuffle everything up one platform because rolling stock now can't use platform 1 is pretty daft. The point of the platform 4 is to have two down and two up, so either you lose the second up platform, which was the whole point, or you have down Marches and down Tunnel trains trying to weave inside each other.

There are trains coming into Platform 4 which turn back to Cardiff and it is also in readiness to turn back Ebbw Vale trains if the promised service ever starts. I don't think you understand Newport properly, before Platform 4 Up trains could be delayed on approach due to a train still departing from Platform 3. Much delay has been eliminated.

 

[jayah]

Or you could look at in another way. The flexible layout with four bi-directional platforms which has been provided means the temporary gauging issue can be worked around and not delay the introduction of the Turbos.

It isn't very flexible when you have a down HST overtaking the Taunton between the Tunnel and Newport, both looking for a down platform as the up London is in platform 3.
Network Rail have had how many years to look at the gauging?

 

[Parallel]

What will be interesting is if GWR has a severely delayed Cardiff bound service as they fairly frequently do, if it was operated by a 166 - what would be the options? At the moment it is common practice to terminate in P1 at Newport.

If 166s can’t use Newport P1 for the time being, late running services would either terminate in P2, P3 or P4 causing mass platform alterations, or would have to lay over in some sidings nearby (are there any?), or run through to Cardiff and then start the next service delayed, or terminate earlier where possible (Filton Abbey Wood would be okay, but can’t see them dumping loads of passengers at Severn Tunnel Junction)...

 

[Dai Corner]

It isn't very flexible when you have a down HST overtaking the Taunton between the Tunnel and Newport, both looking for a down platform as the up London is in platform 3.
Network Rail have had how many years to look at the gauging?

Surely it's better to have three platforms usable by all the 14 trains an hour through Newport and one by 12 of the 14 than just three platforms?

 

[BestWestern]

What will be interesting is if GWR has a severely delayed Cardiff bound service as they fairly frequently do, if it was operated by a 166 - what would be the options? At the moment it is common practice to terminate in P1 at Newport.

If 166s can’t use Newport P1 for the time being, late running services would either terminate in P2, P3 or P4 causing mass platform alterations, or would have to lay over in some sidings nearby (are there any?), or run through to Cardiff and then start the next service delayed, or terminate earlier where possible (Filton Abbey Wood would be okay, but can’t see them dumping loads of passengers at Severn Tunnel Junction)...

No sidings that a GWR Driver is likely to sign. The late runners tend to be the Portsmouths, so presumably by the time Turbos appear on those they'll have the P1 issue sorted out. In the meantime, Turbos into Wales are running with a Class 9 headcode, and presumably if they're that late they'll be terminated in Bristol.

 

[Dai Corner]

What will be interesting is if GWR has a severely delayed Cardiff bound service as they fairly frequently do, if it was operated by a 166 - what would be the options? At the moment it is common practice to terminate in P1 at Newport.

If 166s can’t use Newport P1 for the time being, late running services would either terminate in P2, P3 or P4 causing mass platform alterations, or would have to lay over in some sidings nearby (are there any?), or run through to Cardiff and then start the next service delayed, or terminate earlier where possible (Filton Abbey Wood would be okay, but can’t see them dumping loads of passengers at Severn Tunnel Junction)...

On the plus side Platform 1 is more convenient than Platform 2 for passengers on Down trains as its adjacent to the main entrance.

 

[jayah]

There are trains coming into Platform 4 which turn back to Cardiff and it is also in readiness to turn back Ebbw Vale trains if the promised service ever starts. I don't think you understand Newport properly, before Platform 4 Up trains could be delayed on approach due to a train still departing from Platform 3. Much delay has been eliminated.

You are talking about literally ONE train a day! A moronic piece of work from Swansea to Newport plat 4, arriving 5min ahead of the express from Swansea and leaving in a 4 min gap between and up London and an up Portsmouth. I would to hear the learned explanation as to how exactly that works? Can't see a time in the past week, it has both run and not delayed the latter arriving as if there aren't enough things to delay it later on the way to Portsmouth.

As for Ebbw Vale, luckily Network Rail's slow bicycle race of starting the Ebbw service and gauge clearance means we hopefully won't ever see Class 166 barred from 1 and Ebbw turning in 4 at the same time, especially once Class 166 take over the Portsmouths.

 

[jayah]

In the meantime, Turbos into Wales are running with a Class 9 headcode, and presumably if they're that late they'll be terminated in Bristol.

No doubt with stop orders for Patchway and the Junction in the following Portsmouth. A fine carry on.

 

[jayah]

On the plus side Platform 1 is more convenient than Platform 2 for passengers on Down trains as its adjacent to the main entrance.

Not for everyone going to Cardiff watching the Class 166 they overtook at Llanwern cross back in front of them first.

 

[jayah]

There is an NR project to Gauge Clear several routes for the Class 16x series - Newport Platform 1 will be dealt with in due course.

Normally projects have timescales. 'Due course' is symptomatic of sloppy, poor management. It clearly needed sorting before the class entered passenger service and unless I have missed something they can hardly claim not to have known it needed looking at.

 

[Dai Corner]

Not for everyone going to Cardiff watching the Class 166 they overtook at Llanwern cross back in front of them first.

In the scanario that was being discussed the 166 terminated at Newport and would turn back towards Bristol.

 

[Dai Corner]

Normally projects have timescales. 'Due course' is symptomatic of sloppy, poor management. It clearly needed sorting before the class entered passenger service and unless I have missed something they can hardly claim not to have known it needed looking at.

How do you know there isn't a date for the work to be completed?

 

[Mintona]

It isn't very flexible when you have a down HST overtaking the Taunton between the Tunnel and Newport, both looking for a down platform as the up London is in platform 3.
Network Rail have had how many years to look at the gauging?

I’ve never once known a down London to overtake a Taunton - Cardiff train between Severn Tunnel Jn and Newport. Not least because they’re both booked on the mains as far as Llanwern/Newport and there’s no chance to overtake there, as both are slowing down for Newport.

 

[jayah]

I’ve never once known a down London to overtake a Taunton - Cardiff train between Severn Tunnel Jn and Newport. Not least because they’re both booked on the mains as far as Llanwern/Newport and there’s no chance to overtake there, as both are slowing down for Newport.

Llanwern and Newport aren't exactly the same place.

 

[Mintona]

Llanwern and Newport aren't exactly the same place.

An HST minimum two signals back from a sprinter at Llanwern will not catch up with said sprinter before Newport, because they are too close. It would only happen if said sprinter got held at a red signal at East Usk or outside Newport platform 1. The sprinter will cross to the relief at 60mph, and by the time the HST gets to the next signal on the main after the crossover it will be braking for the 40mph speed restriction outside Newport.

 

[jayah]

How do you know there isn't a date for the work to be completed?

It seems pretty certain it won't be before the restriction causes lots of problems, which is when it should have been done. 29th February is a date, but not a very useful one.
If someone familiar with the project uses words like 'due course' that says it all.

 

[jayah]

It crosses at Llanwern, not Severn Tunnel. It’s 40mph on the relief from Severn Tunnel to Llanwern, it would lose too much time if it ran via the relief.

The HST will loose plenty of time if it doesn't get out of its way. Which is the point after all.

 

[Mintona]

The HST will loose plenty of time if it doesn't get out of its way. Which is the point after all.

The HST sometimes overtakes on the final approaches to Cardiff if the sprinter runs relief line from Newport to Cardiff but usually doesn’t. By the time the HST has been dispatched from Newport the sprinter is past Alexandra Dock Jn and the speed differential isn’t (normally) enough for the HST to overtake.

 

[jayah]

In the scanario that was being discussed the 166 terminated at Newport and would turn back towards Bristol.

The scenario was the down HST using platform 1 instead of the Class 166 which is more convenient for town, forgetting of course the great delay that will result.

 

[Dai Corner]

It seems pretty certain it won't be before the restriction causes lots of problems, which is when it should have been done. 29th February is a date, but not a very useful one.
If someone familiar with the project uses words like 'due course' that says it all.

Which carries more weight? Someone not familiar with the project saying 'I'm pretty certain' or someone who is familiar with it but may not have the date immediately to hand or be at liberty to divulge it on a public forum saying 'in due course'?

 

[Dai Corner]

The scenario was the down HST using platform 1 instead of the Class 166 which is more convenient for town, forgetting of course the great delay that will result.

What's the time penalty for a train using platform 1 instead of platform 2 and how does it compare with the time to negotiate the stairs or lifts?

 

[jayah]

The HST sometimes overtakes on the final approaches to Cardiff if the sprinter runs relief line from Newport to Cardiff but usually doesn’t. By the time the HST has been dispatched from Newport the sprinter is past Alexandra Dock Jn and the speed differential isn’t (normally) enough for the HST to overtake.

The Class 166 would need to clear the platform at Newport ahead of the HST arriving which would lose about 3min unless you start putting trains down plat 3 and up HSTs on plat 4 which causes many other problems. You are wriggling very hard to try and avoid accepting the bleeding obvious which is that Taunton - Cardiff on Plat 1 is a regular move and needs to be cleared for the rolling stock booked to use it.

 

[jayah]

Which carries more weight? Someone not familiar with the project saying 'I'm pretty certain' or someone who is familiar with it but may not have the date immediately to hand or be at liberty to divulge it on a public forum saying 'in due course'?

To be honest, the whole thing is a nonsense. If the train is booked on Platform 1 the stock needs to be cleared for Platform 1. Why is this even being debated?