Failure to Pay - Manchester *RESOLVED*

[gray1404]

This does seem like an honest account and logical. The OP tried to short fare. They got caught. Hopefully they will receive a letter from Northern inviting them to pay £80 plus the fare as an out of court settlement.

As for the conflict between the passenger and Northern contractor, I think the OP needs to view this as a separate matter to their fare evasion and one that would be taken up with customer services.

Let's wait and see what is said when they hear back from Northern.

 

[IanXC]

I'm not sure there is really much more to discuss at this point.

When the OP receives a letter, has any update or requires further advice please use the report function to alert the staff team and we will reopen the thread.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

Hello all, I received a letter from Northern on the 5th, it begins "on Saturday the 14th of October 2017 you were spoken to by an authorised member of staff in relation to an alleged contravention of Railway Regulations" I was then told before the company proceeds further investigations I was offered an opportunity of responding with my explanation concerning it.

After that there's a bit on "this could be a serious matter" and address and 14 days to respond. A little more about the fine/byelaws/ RoRA. My sister got the same letter but with only the first bit I wrote out, not the "this is a serious offence" or the RoRA, byelaws etc etc. She is under 18.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

This is a rather scary process to deal with while I'm doing my university applications and preparing for my exams, so I was wondering if anyone could help me out a little to make the process easier. I don't know what's going to happen to me or my sister.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Hi Sophie

Can you post or private message the letter you received?

 

[142blue]

Explain it. You weren't being honest with them and hope they offer you a settlement

 

[najaB]

My sister got the same letter but with only the first bit I wrote out, not the "this is a serious offence" or the RoRA, byelaws etc etc. She is under 18.

It's comparatively rare for TOCs to seek to prosecute under-18s so that could explain it.

 

[142blue]

Even that is wrong as it is criminal be you under 16 or not. I#d be interested to see how this story plays out

 

[MG11]

Okay so I see half the people on here like to lecture me on the fact that me trying to buy a ticket from levenshulme was an offence. I'm absolutely aware of that and I do not need to be told that again. Please, don't wallow in the anxiety of others it is not nice. Questioning my version of events is pointless as I have told it exactly how it happened.

The train station has a ticket machine at the car park which I got to with little amount of time due to getting out of the house late, fantastically placed so you can buy your tickets on the way in and never had an error until that day. If there was CCTV then I would be filmed approaching it and walking off when noticing the message. The train was approaching soon and trains are infrequent from cheadle Hulme so I decided to board. I use a Trainline App and that day had no mobile data which is why I couldn't purchase tickets online, and please don't say "why don't you purchase the day before" as normally I don't plan which train exactly to take unless before work because if I would have booked a train and ran late like I did that day I would have missed it, which is why I tried the ticket machine.

The woman's behaviour is a separate matter, I waited until I calmed down to write this post so I could be as objective as possible. I still believe I recieved unprofessional treatment and will complain as soon as this matter is dealt with.
.

Which company was the Revenue Protection Officer working for i.e. East Midlands Trains, Virgin, Northern?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

please don't say "why don't you purchase the day before" as normally I don't plan which train exactly to take unless before work because if I would have booked a train and ran late like I did that day I would have missed it, which is why I tried the ticket machine.

You should make yourself aware that it's only tickets labelled "Advance" that are tied to a specific train, so it's feasible to buy tickets the day before travel if using normal "any permitted" or "off peak" tickets. . Also there are cheaper options for buying tickets online than Trainline. However buying online and collecting from the machine isn't going to work if the machine is out of action.

 

[142blue]

Two mins before departure isnt adequate to buy a ticket and board a train, late running or not as you were. How about get the one before so that you have a bit more time to spare or tell the truth when challenged at Manchester at the very least you have to be honest. If you have done nothing wrong then you have nothing to be alarmed about. Explain the situation, offer the correct fare, you have done as much as is reasonable. This sounds like another case of a person chancing it trying to save a few £££ which long term it won't do

 

[Sophie Anthony]

Which company was the Revenue Protection Officer working for i.e. East Midlands Trains, Virgin, Northern?

Northern. Also to those others who posted more recently in the thread telling me I should have bought further in advance and that I should just own up to attempting to short fare - I am now aware I need to have a ticket in advance, I am aware I tried to short fare and that it was my fault. This was established much earlier and believe me I'm getting enough reprimending off my mother, I just needed some advice for what to do, I'm not trying to get around this I just wanted to know how the best way to reply to the letter. I rarely get the train because I don't live close to a train station by foot, so this was really a one off dumb thing that I did.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

When you receive your letter, and depending on how they choose to take this forward, it may be helpful if you could get your GP, Consultant or CPN to write a letter outlining how your condition might affect you under pressure.

I wish I could but I don't receive treatment anymore as I didn't have time to continue CBT and I stopped medication because of side effects, i attempted the short faring because I was an idiot and the anxiety kicked in when I was being questioned

 

[Sophie Anthony]

In response to number 2 I've had a number of experiences of trying to get guards attention unsuccessfully by shouting them back as I walk past and don't look in my direction however personally speaking if I hadn't bought before boarding I would be walking after them to catch up with them.

In response to point 3 you have to buy before boarding when using an app as they take 15 and guards shouldn't accept them if they have been bought too late.

Well it's sadly all irrelevant now because I stupidly tried to short fare so that's the least of my problems. But I did unsuccessfully try to get a guards attention and it was the first time he just walked past me because the train was packed. I normally use an app if I use a train but that day I ran out of mobile data or 4G.

Again that absolutely is the least of my problems

 

[Sophie Anthony]

Even that is wrong as it is criminal be you under 16 or not. I#d be interested to see how this story plays out

Just to clarify, it's not a story. I'm sorry if you believed otherwise.

 

[northwichcat]

Definitely complain about the woman now to customer services, you don't need to wait for their letter. Include a full description of her. If their reply is not satisfactory appeal the matter to Transport Focus.

Indeed. I fail to see what her problem was if someone said their age was 19. If someone said their age was 15 (just young enough to get a child fare) or 17 (just young enough for the legal system not to see you as an adult) and they looked older than that then I can understand her being doubtful. However, it doesn't make any difference whether a passenger is 18, 19, 20 or 21.

 

[northwichcat]

Well it's sadly all irrelevant now because I stupidly tried to short fare so that's the least of my problems. But I did unsuccessfully try to get a guards attention and it was the first time he just walked past me because the train was packed. I normally use an app if I use a train but that day I ran out of mobile data or 4G.

Again that absolutely is the least of my problems

It is important that you understand how different ticketing options work, no one wants you to get in to trouble again.

The app does say tickets are delivered within 15 minutes. Last week I used it and the tickets came through straight away but if you don't buy 15 minutes in advance of the departure time and the tickets don't come through straight away then it's your problem not the guard's or a ticket inspector's. You also need to be careful that you have enough data left to activate the ticket before purchase so if you're running low on data it might be a good idea to buy an old fashioned cardboard ticket.

 

[najaB]

You also need to be careful that you have enough data left to activate the ticket before purchase so if you're running low on data it might be a good idea to buy an old fashioned cardboard ticket.

Most, though by no means all, mTicket apps allow activation of downloaded tickets without a data connection.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Even that is wrong as it is criminal be you under 16 or not. I#d be interested to see how this story plays out

The youth criminal justice system is very different from the adult system. Every attempt is made to keep youths out of court, where possible.

It is important that you understand how different ticketing options work, no one wants you to get in to trouble again.

The app does say tickets are delivered within 15 minutes. Last week I used it and the tickets came through straight away but if you don't buy 15 minutes in advance of the departure time and the tickets don't come through straight away then it's your problem not the guard's or a ticket inspector's. You also need to be careful that you have enough data left to activate the ticket before purchase so if you're running low on data it might be a good idea to buy an old fashioned cardboard ticket.

The old NR app had a ten minute cut-off and would not sell tickets for a train about to arrive. Eg no tickets after 13h00 for the 13h10 (though you could buy a ticket for the 14h10 and activate it at your own risk)

 

[Sophie Anthony]

Indeed. I fail to see what her problem was if someone said their age was 19. If someone said their age was 15 (just young enough to get a child fare) or 17 (just young enough for the legal system not to see you as an adult) and they looked older than that then I can understand her being doubtful. However, it doesn't make any difference whether a passenger is 18, 19, 20 or 21.

My sister didn't even have ID. But she kept saying the details get checked so I kept telling her that I wasn't lying. She was acting doubtful because she was throwing out buzzwords like "liar" "crook" "fraudster" between prompting me for her age, it threw me off so much I said 11/1/1999 instead of 11/1/2000 (her real birth year). But for me, I was very puzzled by her anger as she only asked for my age once. Strange.

If the details get checked, why did all my friends get frustrated when I told them I provided my real details? Apparently the protocol is to use someone else's address? Doesn't that mean some innocent person is going to get legal action against them?

 

[najaB]

Apparently the protocol is to use someone else's address? Doesn't that mean some innocent person is going to get legal action against them?

Rather disturbing to find out that there's a 'protocol'. No, it doesn't mean that someone else gets prosecuted but it does mean that when your luck runs out you'll be up on significantly more serious charges which carry a criminal record and the TOC will be very unlikely to accept a settlement (even quite a sizable one).

 

[6Gman]

If the details get checked, why did all my friends get frustrated when I told them I provided my real details? Apparently the protocol is to use someone else's address? Doesn't that mean some innocent person is going to get legal action against them?

You may want to find some new friends.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

Rather disturbing to find out that there's a 'protocol'. No, it doesn't mean that someone else gets prosecuted but it does mean that when your luck runs out you'll be up on significantly more serious charges which carry a criminal record and the TOC will be very unlikely to accept a settlement (even quite a sizable one).

Thought so. Though if I get convicted I'll be getting a criminal record anyway.

You may want to find some new friends.

Definitely never discussing legal issues with them again

 

[najaB]

Thought so. Though if I get convicted I'll be getting a criminal record anyway.

Not for a Byelaw prosecution.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

Not for a Byelaw prosecution.

Perhaps. But it was earlier mentioned in the thread that Northern could convict me under RoRA, which will limit my career options greatly as I graduate university.

 

[najaB]

Perhaps. But it was earlier mentioned in the thread that Northern could convict me under RoRA, which will limit my career options greatly as I graduate university.

They could, but it's not a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination. And a RoRA conviction wouldn't be career-limiting as it's a relatively minor offence, and it would be expunged from a standard DBS check after 12 months in any case.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

They could, but it's not a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination. And a RoRA conviction wouldn't be career-limiting as it's a relatively minor offence, and it would be expunged from a standard DBS check after 12 months in any case.

I hope so. I want to go into accounting, but it would be a shame if i ruined it because I was an imbecile over a ticket, so that possibly requires an enhanced DBS. I probably shouldn't speculate, they may not convict me and offer to settle out of court. I hope for that.

 

[najaB]

I want to go into accounting ... so that possibly requires an enhanced DBS.

I don't believe it does.

I probably shouldn't speculate, they may not convict me and offer to settle out of court. I hope for that.

Indeed, it's best to take things in stride rather than worry about what may or may not happen.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

I don't believe it does. Indeed, it's best to take things in stride rather than worry about what may or may not happen.

It doesn't? Ah okay. I'll post on the thread once I hear back from Northern, and update the situation. Until then I'll try and forget about it.

 

[najaB]

It doesn't? Ah okay.

According to Gov.uk, an accountancy role only qualifies for a standard check: https://www.gov.uk/find-out-dbs-che...l-or-legal-professional/accountant-or-actuary