Failure to Pay - Manchester *RESOLVED*

[northwichcat]

According to Gov.uk, an accountancy role only qualifies for a standard check: https://www.gov.uk/find-out-dbs-che...l-or-legal-professional/accountant-or-actuary

Don't forget some employers require enhanced checks for any position they recruit for, while some may not undertake an enhanced check but ask for any criminal convictions to be recorded on an application form will small print underneath saying you can be disqualified from the application process or dismissed from employment if they find out you haven't been honest when completing it.

 

[najaB]

Don't forget some employers require enhanced checks for any position they recruit for...

I may have completely misunderstood the legislation but my understanding is that an employer is only entitled to request an Enhanced Disclosure when the prospective employee will be working closely with vulnerable people.

 

[northwichcat]

I may have completely misunderstood the legislation but my understanding is that an employer is only entitled to request an Enhanced Disclosure when the prospective employee will be working closely with vulnerable people.

I'm not sure exactly what the difference is but there's also an Enhanced with Barred List check that people working for employers like Royal Mail have to undertake.

 

[najaB]

I'm not sure exactly what the difference is but there's also an Enhanced with Barred List check that people working for employers like Royal Mail have to undertake.

I imagine that Royal Mail delivery employees have to do Enhanced Disclosure because they potentially will be having doors opened to them by vulnerable people (e.g. old people living alone). Probably not the ideal job for someone who's been convicted of assault or robbery.

 

[northwichcat]

I imagine that Royal Mail delivery employees have to do Enhanced Disclosure because they potentially will be having doors opened to them by vulnerable people (e.g. old people living alone). Probably not the ideal job for someone who's been convicted of assault or robbery.

Apparently it's more to do with what they are carrying - someone's phone bill and bank statement in the wrong hands could be used to commit fraud.

 

[najaB]

Apparently it's more to do with what they are carrying - someone's phone bill and bank statement in the wrong hands could be used to commit fraud.

Good point - so it's probably a good idea all around. But, to bring this back to the OP's situation, an accountancy firm should have organisational controls in place that mean their employees are never in a similar position of trust - meaning that they almost certainly wouldn't be allowed to conduct Enhanced Disclosure checks on prospective employees.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

According to Gov.uk, an accountancy role only qualifies for a standard check: https://www.gov.uk/find-out-dbs-che...l-or-legal-professional/accountant-or-actuary

I'm surprised to see it, at least if this goes to court it will have less of an impact on my career. I won't be applying for jobs in accounting for at least 4 or 5 years, I nearly changed all my UCAS choice preferences because I was worried it would ruin my chances with career.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

Apparently it's more to do with what they are carrying - someone's phone bill and bank statement in the wrong hands could be used to commit fraud.

Nope, now I'm worried again. Would there be any point at all going into any sort of career in finance with a conviction from Northern? What careers can I even go into with a conviction? Does this mean my life is actually ruined because of a train ticket?

 

[najaB]

Does this mean my life is actually ruined because of a train ticket?

No. Not at all.

As I noted above, an employee in a accountancy firm would be subject to organisational controls against potential fraud and so the employer wouldn't be allowed conduct enhanced DBS checks.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

No. Not at all.

As I noted above, an employee in a accountancy firm would be subject to organisational controls against potential fraud and so the employer wouldn't be allowed conduct enhanced DBS checks.

Apologies, I'm not too familiar with the legal system around disclosure and barring service checks, I was under the impression that a conviction does not become spent at all.
I wish it was common knowledge that short faring could result in a criminal record, I've noticed the buy you board posters when I use trains on the odd occasion now but they're not very eye catching at all. Ironic that my sister and I may end up paying a fixed penalty in order to save £2.

 

[northwichcat]

Apologies, I'm not too familiar with the legal system around disclosure and barring service checks, I was under the impression that a conviction does not become spent at all.
I wish it was common knowledge that short faring could result in a criminal record, I've noticed the buy you board posters when I use trains on the odd occasion now but they're not very eye catching at all.

The thing you need to do is prevent this issue from going to court. If you agree to settle with Northern out-of-court then they can't take you to court and consequently you can't get a criminal record. The fact you gave your proper address makes it easier for Northern to communicate with you, if you had given a false address (as some of your friends suggested you should have) then you might have finished up with a criminal record without any knowledge of it.

Ironic that my sister and I may end up paying a fixed penalty in order to save £2.

Train operators (not just Northern) realise it's easy to avoid paying as much as you are supposed to, so they want to come down hard on those they do catch, some passengers have been in the same situation as yourself for trying to save 10 or 20p. After all if they let someone get away with £2 a week, then they've lost over £100 from just one passenger over the course of a year.

 

[najaB]

Train operators (not just Northern) realise it's easy to avoid paying as much as you are supposed to, so they want to come down hard on those they do catch, some passengers have been in the same situation as yourself for trying to save 10 or 20p. After all if they let someone get away with £2 a week, then they've lost over £100 from just one passenger over the course of a year.

You'd also have the sticky matter of of how much would be 'enough' to justify a prosecution?

 

[sauropod99]

I wish it was common knowledge that short faring could result in a criminal record.

I've always thought that deliberate short faring was theft - the same as shoplifting a bag of crisps. The amount doesn't matter.

 

[northwichcat]

I've always thought that deliberate short faring was theft - the same as shoplifting a bag of crisps. The amount doesn't matter.

Presuming the shopper in your analogy pays for some items as well. Short faring is avoiding paying the full cost, so wouldn't be the same as walking in, stealing a bag of crisps and then leaving.

 

[shredder1]

I've always thought that deliberate short faring was theft - the same as shoplifting a bag of crisps. The amount doesn't matter.

Technically theft, but actually fraud.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

Technically theft, but actually fraud.

I was told it was actually fraud.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

You'd also have the sticky matter of of how much would be 'enough' to justify a prosecution?

I've heard sometimes they like to make an example out of people, hoping they'd run to the media and more awareness would be raised.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

The thing you need to do is prevent this issue from going to court. If you agree to settle with Northern out-of-court then they can't take you to court and consequently you can't get a criminal record. The fact you gave your proper address makes it easier for Northern to communicate with you, if you had given a false address (as some of your friends suggested you should have) then you might have finished up with a criminal record without any knowledge of it.



Train operators (not just Northern) realise it's easy to avoid paying as much as you are supposed to, so they want to come down hard on those they do catch, some passengers have been in the same situation as yourself for trying to save 10 or 20p. After all if they let someone get away with £2 a week, then they've lost over £100 from just one passenger over the course of a year.

Well, that was my one attempt for saving £2 over the course of my lifetime considering I normally drive or take the bus anyway as trains always confuse me a bit

 

[MG11]

Perhaps. But it was earlier mentioned in the thread that Northern could convict me under RoRA, which will limit my career options greatly as I graduate university.

Please try not to worry. Do take this seriously though, as it is a very serious matter. Be honest with Northern, apologise, tell them how you realise what you did was very wrong and that it won't happen again. Offer them a very large out of court settlement (over £200, to make it worth Northern's while) and then await their response.

If you are prosecuted under RORA, yes it will mean a criminal record, but after a while, the conviction will become spent, which is why many employers only ask you to declare unspent convictions. Hopefully, whatever the outcome, you will be able to learn from this and move on.

 

[mazza887]

I think it is better not to specify the amount and instead simply offer to cover administration costs and the outstanding fare. Perhaps if Northern rejected the initial letter it may be worth replying and specifying the amount. But it's highly unlikely Northern are going to reject the initial letter and will instead offer Sophie their standard £80 settlement.

 

[Sophie Anthony]

I have an update for my situation - northern wrote back to me on the 5/12/17 offering an out of court settlement of £84.20 as a fixed penalty notice. My sister recieved a letter addressed to my parents of a fee for £1.00, (I think hers wasn't an FPN) I would like to say thank you to everyone who has helped me out on here, I would have definitely lost my mind if it weren't for this forum. To say I'm relieved is a huge understatement, I will be paying the penalty fine tomorrow morning.

 

[farleigh]

Good news

 

[MG11]

I am pleased you found our help useful. Thank you for coming back to us with the outcome.