Your suggestions for the next Southeastern franchise

[KashmireHawker]

The ITT has been released this morning, as part of Grayling's "Strategic Vision for Rail":

Key features include:

• plans unveiled to boost capacity with space for at least an extra 40,000 passengers per day
• improved, longer, more comfortable trains and fast wifi connectivity by 2022
• region will become the first in the country to have a new joint team running day to day operations for track and train to cut delays and improve performance
• next operator required to remove first-class accommodation on all services within 18 months of taking over the franchise to increase space for all commuters

And some specifics include:

• introduce fast wifi on all services, making journeys more productive and enjoyable for passengers
• bring in improved compensation with a simple, easy to claim system that will provide a refund after 15 minutes
• introduce new smart ticketing systems, including a pilot for pay-as-you-go
• improve customer service, with staff better able to respond quickly to passenger’s needs
• deliver significantly enhanced cooperation between Network Rail and operator through a new structure designed to increase the reliability of the railway and put the passenger first in all decision making

Full details can be seen via the DfT Press Release below:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/better-journeys-for-south-eastern-rail-passengers

 

[Class 466]

Interestingly the franchise start date is 1st April 2019 when the current one ends months before that

 

[XCTurbostar]

I guess their anticipating an extension of the current Govia franchise?

"provide longer trains and upgrade or replace older trains, creating space for at least an extra 40,000 passengers"
I guess we can start waving bye to those 465s and 466s

 

[kentman]

Looks like some changes to the service patterns, if I read the tables rights. eg Sidcup line :
4 tph 15 mins evenish, not Lewisham made of

2 tph London Charring Cross - Dartford (and maybe onward)
2 tph London Charring Cross - Crayford and then onto London Cannon st via Woolwich.​

2 tph London Victoria - Crayford and on wards.
With extra Cannon Street services (not Lewisham) only in the morning and afternoon peaks.

 

[Class465fan]

I guess their anticipating an extension of the current Govia franchise?

"provide longer trains and upgrade or replace older trains, creating space for at least an extra 40,000 passengers"
I guess we can start waving bye to those 465s and 466s

Well then if they get replaced they could replace the old ageing southern 455s and the 313s but they'll need to do some modifications to the platforms first.

 

[jnjkerbin]

I also notice that as some predicted, Charing Cross - Hastings services will cease to call at Orpington or Sevenoaks with the stops taken up by the Dover/Canterbury W/Ramsgate trains. It seems rather odd that the trains which currently have a roughly 2 hour journey will pick up more stops, whereas the trains that currently have a 1h35 journey will get less. They presumably think even more should use HS services instead. I suspect that speeding up trains to the highly marginal seat of the Home Secretary may play a part as well.

 

[BluePenguin]

I also notice that as some predicted, Charing Cross - Hastings services will cease to call at Orpington or Sevenoaks with the stops taken up by the Dover/Canterbury W/Ramsgate trains.

Oh no, not more stops! Whose stupid idea was this?

A few years ago the Ramgate via Canterbury West and via Dover Priory services stopped at Tonbridge, Hidenborough, Sevenoaks and Orpington. Only stopping at Tonbridge and Sevenoaks at the moment goes a long way to making an already very slow service a little better.

The Hastings line is also very slow so I can understand they want to speed it up a little. However the Tunbridge Wells services cover all the stops between Tonbridge and Orpington already so why they now want to add them onto the Ramsgate services is strange - maybe the Tunbridge Wells service will be axed leaving the Hastings one to cover?

 

[Barn]

I started a thread in the timetable section to discuss the train service elements of the ITT in more detail: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/south-eastern-itt-train-service-requirements.157536/

 

[ScotGG]

Looking at Metro routes and I see potential cuts on the most popular lines.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If they did get rid of the Networkers, is there a chance that they'd replace all their Electrostars as well or will they stick to replacing just the Networkers?

 

[Class 466]

If they did get rid of the Networkers, is there a chance that they'd replace all their Electrostars as well or will they stick to replacing just the Networkers?

With the increase in the number of Mainline services, and the fact some are already worked by networkers - I wouldn't be surprised to see at least the 377s go in favour of a more uniform fleet.

 

[ScotGG]

If they did get rid of the Networkers, is there a chance that they'd replace all their Electrostars as well or will they stick to replacing just the Networkers?

376s are an anomoly as the DfT want 4 or 6 car trains. 5-cars would be better suited to Southern or SWT

 

[ScotGG]

I havn't seen but is there an increase in trains from Gravesend or Gillingham to Abbey Wood for Crossrail. One of the wierd things about next year's timetable is the existing trains are cut and replaced by Thameslink - at 2tph its no increase and I thought one big selling point of Abbey Wood was to interchange.

 

[HH]

Out of interest, what is likely to cause this ? I was under the impression that the London Bridge works would increase capacity - or will Thameslink 2000 soak it all up !

Sorry, missed this originally.

Yes, Thameslink has taken paths away in the peak. Plus, as I understand it, the very changes at London Bridge will make it harder for SE to squeeze as many trains in. My timetable gurus tell me that it won't be physically possible for SE to run as many trains as at present. Someone at DfT forgot to mention this to the Minister before he started promising stuff...

 

[telstarbox]

A couple of other interesting bits:

Hayes Line will go to 2tph to Charing Cross (not Lewisham) and 2tph to Victoria (i.e. no services to Cannon Street off peak)

Bromley North branch will go to 4tph

 

[urpert]

A couple of other interesting bits:

Bromley North branch will go to 4tph

I wonder if it will finally get a Sunday service?

 

[telstarbox]

The documentation says:

Bidders are to assume that the Bromley North branch and Chatham Reversible are available on a Sunday (SuO) for the purposes of delivering TSR2. Bidders wishing to exceed the requirements of TSR2 as these locations as part of their bid should provide evidence of Network Rail’s views in this area.

 

[Mollman]

I see the idea of the Marshlink transferring to Southeastern hasn't appeared in the ITT (unless I missed something) yet the new Modern Railways has a news item about enabling work for HS1 - Hastings trains at Ashford being on the way.

 

[Roast Veg]

In the bid scoring section: "Bids that include commitments to fund and deliver enhancements to the railway infrastructure (for example enabling High Speed services to reach Hastings) that will deliver passenger benefits and/or increase franchise value beyond the franchise term (over and above those enhancements included in Network Rail’s latest Enhancements Delivery Plan)."

 

[urpert]

The documentation says:

Thanks, I hadn’t spotted that.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I havn't seen but is there an increase in trains from Gravesend or Gillingham to Abbey Wood for Crossrail. One of the wierd things about next year's timetable is the existing trains are cut and replaced by Thameslink - at 2tph its no increase and I thought one big selling point of Abbey Wood was to interchange.

I don't think there is. I didn't look at the Dartford-Gillingham plans, but I did look at the Woolwich line specs, and they basically showed roughly the same frequencies as at present, albeit incorporating the changes expected to happen next year with SouthEastern running 4tph via Greenwich, and 2tph via Lewisham along the Woolwich line, with Thameslink presumably running 2tph via Greenwich to Rainham.

I don't think Crossrail requires frequency increase at Abbey Wood. If anything, it'll mean fewer people on the current line between Abbey Wood and London. And east of Northfleet I imagine most people heading for central London will still prefer to use HS1 anyway.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yes, Thameslink has taken paths away in the peak. Plus, as I understand it, the very changes at London Bridge will make it harder for SE to squeeze as many trains in. My timetable gurus tell me that it won't be physically possible for SE to run as many trains as at present. Someone at DfT forgot to mention this to the Minister before he started promising stuff...

Not heard anything like that before. The changes at London Bridge mean that there will be 3 platforms for Cannon Street services (same as before) and 4 platforms for Charing Cross services (more than before). I'm fairly sure capacity constraints at Cannon Street and Charing Cross/Waterloo will prevent any increase in numbers of SouthEastern trains, while the changes at London Bridge (plus the grade separation further out) will improve reliability, but I don't see any reason why the current frequency (or at least whatever was there before the London Bridge works started) cannot be maintained?

 

[Barn]

Not heard anything like that before. The changes at London Bridge mean that there will be 3 platforms for Cannon Street services (same as before) and 4 platforms for Charing Cross services (more than before). I'm fairly sure capacity constraints at Cannon Street and Charing Cross/Waterloo will prevent any increase in numbers of SouthEastern trains, while the changes at London Bridge (plus the grade separation further out) will improve reliability, but I don't see any reason why the current frequency (or at least whatever was there before the London Bridge works started) cannot be maintained?

It's something to do with the curve from Cannon Street towards Blackfriars, which is used to get empty stock out of the way in the peaks, no longer being available.

 

[yorksrob]

Sorry, missed this originally.

Yes, Thameslink has taken paths away in the peak. Plus, as I understand it, the very changes at London Bridge will make it harder for SE to squeeze as many trains in. My timetable gurus tell me that it won't be physically possible for SE to run as many trains as at present. Someone at DfT forgot to mention this to the Minister before he started promising stuff...

Oh right. I'd assumed that because SE would effectively still have seven through lines their capacity wouldn't be affected.

 

[ScotGG]

Yep there's a cut in how many trains Cannon Street can handle after all the work due to the curve being cut. It's something I've been surprised hasn't been made more of.

TfL had a plan to install two tracks on the remaining curve to get more trains out of platforms to increase tph in the peaks. That appears to have gone with Grayling blocking devolution hence the issues we now see.

 

[Ianno87]

Yep there's a cut in how many trains Cannon Street can handle after all the work due to the curve being cut. It's something I've been surprised hasn't been made more of.

TfL had a plan to install two tracks on the remaining curve to get more trains out of platforms to increase tph in the peaks. That appears to have gone with Grayling blocking devolution hence the issues we now see.

*Technically* the Metropolitan Reversible is not cut - it still allows through running from Cannon Street to Charing Cross or Blackfriars.

It is just that with 16 Thameslink trains an hour each way over the junction at the end of it, there's no chance of pathing a train over it.

What *is* cut is the former Blackfriars Carriage Road (where Cannon St ECS used to reverse before proceeding to Grosvenor shed). That is to be the Down London Bridge Thameslink line departing Blackfriars, with the crossover to depart this line onto the Down Holborn Fast now removed (as it's useless)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It's something to do with the curve from Cannon Street towards Blackfriars, which is used to get empty stock out of the way in the peaks, no longer being available.

Ah, OK, thanks!

Thameslink are taking over 2tph from SouthEastern on the Woolwich line. Would that be enough to account for the loss in capacity?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

*Technically* the Metropolitan Reversible is not cut - it still allows through running from Cannon Street to Charing Cross or Blackfriars.

It is just that with 16 Thameslink trains an hour each way over the junction at the end of it, there's no chance of pathing a train over it.

Could you still get one train out of the way by running it into the Metropolitan Reversible, and simply leaving it there, before the junction with the Thameslink lines so that it doesn't interfere with those trains?

 

[Ianno87]

Ah, OK, thanks!

Thameslink are taking over 2tph from SouthEastern on the Woolwich line. Would that be enough to account for the loss in capacity?

In effect, yes in train frequency terms.

Plus most metro routes are now capable of 12-car operation, increased from 10-car, increasing the total on train capacity - just needs the rolling stock to do it universally.

Could you still get one train out of the way by running it into the Metropolitan Reversible, and simply leaving it there, before the junction with the Thameslink lines so that it doesn't interfere with those trains?

No, because there's no walkway / safe walking route for a driver to leave a parked train and walk back to Cannon Street - they're effectively stuck with the train whilst it's there.

 

[HH]

Yes, it's a mess. A mess caused by the DfT, due to people with insufficient railway knowledge making vital decisions.

No change there then.