EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[pemma]

Fair enough. So they won't be too disappointed when we don't co-operate.

Both people and businesses in Northern Ireland would be getting something very important in return by cooperating - those in NI who work in ROI would be able to continue to keep their jobs without spending a considerable amount of their time in border queues and NI businesses who rely on ROI workers wouldn't have employees resigning because they can't be bothered with the border queues.

 

[pemma]

So this must be why Farage wanted Brexit - early retirement for him on a nice big pension.

The former Ukip leader Nigel Farage may have criticised Theresa May for agreeing to pay the so-called Brexit bill, but the move will guarantee him a lavish pension funded by the UK taxpayer.

As reported by this newspaper, May agreed last week that Britain would settle financial commitments estimated to reach €60bn (£53bn) as it leaves the EU.

Up to €10bn of that amount could go to pensions for Eurocrats and MEPs such as Farage, who has sat in the European parliament since 1999 and will be entitled to an estimated annual pension of £73,000 after the age of 63. He is now 53.

(Subscription needed for rest of article.)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nigel-farage-in-line-for-73-000-pension-f930bvvk8

 

[Bromley boy]

So this must be why Farage wanted Brexit - early retirement for him on a nice big pension.



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nigel-farage-in-line-for-73-000-pension-f930bvvk8

The real scandal exposed by that story is the outrageous pensions paid to MEPs and bureaucrats.

I sincerely hope the “Brexit bill” is made contingent on a decent trade deal. Details of precisely what has been agreed seem thin on the ground.

 

[pemma]

^ Did anti-EU parties try to reduce the pension amounts for MEPs or did they just think "I'll enjoy receiving that nice big pension"?

 

[najaB]

^ Did anti-EU parties try to reduce the pension amounts for MEPs or did they just think "I'll enjoy receiving that nice big pension"?

Ooh, ooh - I know the answer!

 

[fowler9]

Ooh, ooh - I know the answer!

UKIP did their very best to always turn up and not milk the system. I have full confidence that such people will not take the piss once we leave the EU. Erm.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

The referendum had 3 purposes for the Conservatives including fending off the thread from UKIP in many of their seats. It was also to give them some short-term unity, and also to rubber-stamp the reforms David Cameron negotiated. The referendum was not intended as an invitation to leave the EU, which was not even a government proposal.

I think I'm inclined to agree with you there. The fact that only Mark Carney had a plan for leaving the EU, despite advocating for remaining, shows that it was really unexpected, and in more blunt and un-parliamentary terms, 'not supposed to happen'. If you're holding a referendum or election, be prepared to lose. That's something both Cameron and May have learned the hard way, though I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't learn at all.

 

[Bromley boy]

I think I'm inclined to agree with you there. The fact that only Mark Carney had a plan for leaving the EU, despite advocating for remaining, shows that it was really unexpected, and in more blunt and un-parliamentary terms, 'not supposed to happen'. If you're holding a referendum or election, be prepared to lose. That's something both Cameron and May have learned the hard way, though I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't learn at all.

Yes quite. It was a cynical ploy by the arrogant, out-of-touch political establishment to squash once and for all the anti EU sentiment felt by a great many people in this country. Oh, how it has backfired on them.

And as much people may loath Nigel Farage, he has certainly achieved what he set out to achieve, in a way most politicians could never hope to.

 

[pemma]

I think I'm inclined to agree with you there. The fact that only Mark Carney had a plan for leaving the EU, despite advocating for remaining, shows that it was really unexpected, and in more blunt and un-parliamentary terms, 'not supposed to happen'. If you're holding a referendum or election, be prepared to lose. That's something both Cameron and May have learned the hard way, though I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't learn at all.

Remember it wasn't a legally binding referendum, only a referendum to advise the government of what the public thought. I think Cameron thought if we ended up with something like 50.2% voting Leave that he could go back to the EU and say "Look the government wants to remain but a slim majority of the public favour leave, we need more concessions off you so the majority are in favour of remaining"

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Remember it wasn't a legally binding referendum, only a referendum to advise the government of what the public thought. I think Cameron thought if we ended up with something like 50.2% voting Leave that he could go back to the EU and say "Look the government wants to remain but a slim majority of the public favour leave, we need more concessions off you so the majority are in favour of remaining"

Is 51.9% not a good enough number to perhaps warrant asking for more of these concessions?

 

[najaB]

Is 51.9% not a good enough number to perhaps warrant asking for more of these concessions?

It was, but David Cameron, Theresa May, et el would rather destroy the country than the Conservative Party.

 

[pemma]

And as much people may loath Nigel Farage, he has certainly achieved what he set out to achieve, in a way most politicians could never hope to.

Farage wants to claim it as a personal achievement. However, even after a Conservative PM called a referendum, the Leave.EU group Farage was backing failed to get recognised as the official campaign in favour of leaving the European Union.

 

[furnessvale]

Both people and businesses in Northern Ireland would be getting something very important in return by cooperating - those in NI who work in ROI would be able to continue to keep their jobs without spending a considerable amount of their time in border queues and NI businesses who rely on ROI workers wouldn't have employees resigning because they can't be bothered with the border queues.

At least two people have now replied negatively to my comment without bothering to look at the context in which it was made.

 

[pemma]

At least two people have now replied negatively to my comment without bothering to look at the context in which it was made.

It followed a response to customs checks between NI and ROI by Howardh. If there's customs checks do you not think those driving across the border might be asked to open their boots/back of their vans to ensure they aren't taking goods across the border even if they don't declare items on arriving? How can that be done without delaying people who have to cross the border for work?

 

[Bromley boy]

Farage wants to claim it as a personal achievement. However, even after a Conservative PM called a referendum, the Leave.EU group Farage was backing failed to get recognised as the official campaign in favour of leaving the European Union.

Yes but we all know the referendum was only called to shut UKIP up, with Farage by far their most vociferous and effective mouth piece.

It was, but David Cameron, Theresa May, et el would rather destroy the country than the Conservative Party.

So by following the democratically determined will of the people and taking the U.K. out of the EU, they are “destroying the country”?! That’s a somewhat melodramatic take on things, to say the least!

 

[Senex]

It was, but David Cameron, Theresa May, et el would rather destroy the country than the Conservative Party.

Cameron promptly throwing his toys out of the pram and then May happily in thrall to her extreme-right Brexiteers who would rather destroy their party and their country (and let Corbyn into government) than sacrifice any of the purity of their Brexit, such is their hatred of the EU.

 

[furnessvale]

Reply to #7844

The EU needs our co-operation to protect one of it's member state or alternatively requires a hard border so the Irish can do their own checks. They don't want terrorists from a non-EU country to walk straight in to a member state without any border checks, anymore than you want a group of Romanians coming over here and doing some house building.

I'm sure the EU will get our co-operation, despite the lack of anything in return from them.

They don't need to offer us anything at all. They do need to support one of their member states.

Fair enough. So they won't be too disappointed when we don't co-operate.

The context of my post is as above. As you can see I was saying that the UK WOULD probably co-operate with Eire but this was rebuffed in the usual remainer way with the arrogant "the EU/Eire needs to give us nothing" etc. in which case they won't be disappointed.

 

[pemma]

Yes but we all know the referendum was only called to shut UKIP up, with Farage by far their most vociferous and effective mouth piece.

Farage had resigned as UKIP leader before the referendum was called, after he failed to win a seat in the Houses of Parliament. Surely Carswell and Reckless can be given just as much credit as if they had remained Conservative MPs then Cameron wouldn't have feared losing MPs to UKIP.

So by following the democratically determined will of the people and taking the U.K. out of the EU, they are “destroying the country”?! That’s a somewhat melodramatic take on things, to say the least!

As your friend Mr Farage said if the Remain won by a narrow margin and circumstances changed then it's unfinished business. Now are we sure the NHS will get exactly £350m extra a week, because £345m would be unfinished business.

 

[pemma]

Reply to #7844

The context of my post is as above. As you can see I was saying that the UK WOULD probably co-operate with Eire but this was rebuffed in the usual remainer way with the arrogant "the EU/Eire needs to give us nothing" etc. in which case they won't be disappointed.

Notice you seemed to go from 'will co-operate' to 'they won't be too disappointed when we don't co-operate' which made your view as clear as mud.

 

[najaB]

So by following the democratically determined will of the people...

It was an advisory referendum.

 

[EM2]

At least two people have now replied negatively to my comment without bothering to look at the context in which it was made.

The context being the addition of 'despite the lack of anything in return from them'.
You continually portray the EU as an intrasigent behemoth that the UK feeds with money, that then stomps all over us. It's frankly ridiculous.

 

[furnessvale]

Notice you seemed to go from 'will co-operate' to 'they won't be too disappointed when we don't co-operate' which made your view as clear as mud.

My view and your view are totally immaterial. I said I am sure the UK government will co-operate but who knows, if the EU takes takes the advice of some on here and EXPECTS co-operation in exchange for nothing, perhaps they will be disappointed.

 

[furnessvale]

The context being the addition of 'despite the lack of anything in return from them'.
You continually portray the EU as an intrasigent behemoth that the UK feeds with money, that then stomps all over us. It's frankly ridiculous.

In your opinion.

 

[Bromley boy]

Notice you seem to go from 'will co-operate' to 'they won't be too disappointed when we don't co-operate' which made your view as clear as mud.

The point being made I believe was that on this issue, as with many other matters, if the EU are not willing to cooperate with the U.K., why should they expect any cooperation coming back the other way? Far less a “Brexit bill”!!!

Sadly the EU doesn’t seem to be willing or able to adopt a grown up approach to negotiation.

It is saddening that so many remainers seem to actively siding with the EU on these matters.

The context being the addition of 'despite the lack of anything in return from them'.
You continually portray the EU as an intrasigent, out-of-touch,
self-serving, undemocratic, unaccountable behemoth that the UK feeds with money, that then stomps all over us.

With my additions (in bold), that’s an excellent description.

 

[radamfi]

It is saddening that so many remainers seem to actively siding with the EU on these matters.

Because the UK is apparently seeking a brutal form of Brexit in which we will lose our treasured rights. We are more likely to get to keep those rights if the EU stands as firm as possible.

The UK badly wants a free trade deal. If the EU offers a deal where the UK gets everything it appears to want, we will lose freedom of movement, plus other things that we currently take for granted. So we are relying on the EU insisting that the UK stays in the single market, or a close approximation of it.

 

[Bromley boy]

Farage had resigned as UKIP leader before the referendum was called, after he failed to win a seat in the Houses of Parliament. Surely Carswell and Reckless can be given just as much credit as if they had remained Conservative MPs then Cameron wouldn't have feared losing MPs to UKIP.

I reckon most would agree Farage was the most articulate and highest profile of the pro-leave politicians over the last couple of decades. Just look at how UKIP has collapsed after his departure.

As your friend Mr Farage said if the Remain won by a narrow margin and circumstances changed then it's unfinished business. Now are we sure the NHS will get exactly £350m extra a week, because £345m would be unfinished business.

He’s not my friend - Although I’ve been known to drink in his local in Downe! It’s a lovely village and well worth a visit.

I suppose being in the EU is (or was) the status quo therefore that is always open to challenge. Now the vote to leave has been returned, we need to respect that vote and change the status quo.

If the EU changes (massively) and rolls back to something approaching the trading bloc that was originally intended, perhaps we could rejoin at some point in the future.

I doubt anyone seriously believed any of the leave propaganda during the campaign any more than they believed the lies propagated by the remainers. Remind me, what happened to the punishment budget again?

 

[EM2]

How to solve this issue then:

There must not be a hard border between GB and NI.
There must not be a hard border between NI and ROI.
There must not be a hard border between ROI and the rest of the EU.
But there must be a hard border between GB and the rest of the EU.

UK doesn't want to be in the EFTA, EEA or the EU Customs Union.
So what can the EU do?

 

[Bromley boy]

Because the UK is apparently seeking a brutal form of Brexit in which we will lose our treasured rights. We are more likely to get to keep those rights if the EU stands as firm as possible.

The UK badly wants a free trade deal. If the EU offers a deal where the UK gets everything it appears to want, we will lose freedom of movement, plus other things that we currently take for granted. So we are relying on the EU insisting that the UK stays in the single market, or a close approximation of it.

Which rights are those?

If by brutal you mean leaving the EU and the single market then yes I’d agree that’s what has been voted for. Nobody who voted leave did so because they want things to stay the same. Staying in the single market is evidently not an option.

There’s some truth to the phrase “there’s no Brexit other than a hard Brexit”.

How to solve this issue then:

There must not be a hard border between GB and NI.
There must not be a hard border between NI and ROI.
There must not be a hard border between ROI and the rest of the EU.
But there must be a hard border between GB and the rest of the EU.

UK doesn't want to be in the EFTA, EEA or the EU Customs Union.
So what can the EU do?

Additional checks as necessary between NI and the U.K. mainland - it’s already a de facto “hard border” in the sense that you need to board a ferry or an aircraft to cross it.

This is not an insoluble problem - it’s just being presented as one to advance the agenda of the remain camp.

EDIT: this is something the U.K., rather than the EU, could impose to get around the issue.

 

[fowler9]

Which rights are those?

If by brutal you mean leaving the EU and the single market then yes I’d agree that’s what has been voted for. Nobody who voted leave did so because they want things to stay the same. Staying in the single market is evidently not an option.

There’s some truth to the phrase “there’s no Brexit other than a hard Brexit”.



Additional checks as necessary between NI and the U.K. mainland - it’s already a de facto “hard border” in the sense that you need to board a ferry or an aircraft to cross it.

This is not an insoluble problem - it’s just being presented as one to advance the agenda of the remain camp.

EDIT: this is something the U.K., rather than the EU, could impose to get around the issue.

Additional checks between NI and the UK mainland? I bet that will go down great with the DUP in an area that had a majority of remain voters, I can't see any problems, probably just my agenda coming to the fore.

 

[EM2]

Additional checks as necessary between NI and the U.K. mainland - it’s already a de facto “hard border” in the sense that you need to board a ferry or an aircraft to cross it.

This is not an insoluble problem - it’s just being presented as one to advance the agenda of the remain camp.

EDIT: this is something the U.K., rather than the EU, could impose to get around the issue.

Except the DUP won't accept that, which would mean the end of their agreement with the Conservatives, which would probably mean the collapse of Theresa May's Government, and then another General Election.
https://news.sky.com/story/dup-warn...sue-could-destablise-confidence-deal-11150379

The DUP have warned the Government they might no longer be able to count on their votes, if they detect any change to the Prime Minister's policy of treating the UK as one unitary state in Brexit negotiations.

Sky News has learnt party officials met senior members of the Government on Thursday morning to discuss the issue.

There had been speculation that Mrs May and her ministers may consider "regulatory convergence" between Northern Ireland and the Republic as a way of breaking the negotiations deadlock and progressing to trade talks.

This, they insisted, would be unacceptable, and therefore would call into question the "confidence and supply" arrangement by which the DUP agreed with the Conservatives earlier this year.

A senior DUP source told Sky News: "The UK Government knows that any agreement with the EU that Northern Ireland should stay in the single market or the customs union or its regulatory equivalent would be deeply destabilising to the confidence and supply agreement."

The party's 10 MPs have been voting with the Conservatives on the Queen's Speech, Budget and Brexit.

But its agreement does not cover the precise outcome of the EU divorce deal.

Ireland is demanding the UK make a written commitment to convergence, or that either the UK or Northern Ireland remain in the single market or customs union to ensure there is no hard border.

But the DUP have made clear that they would regard such convergence as tantamount to keeping Northern Ireland within the EU customs union, thus creating a new unofficial border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.

Reports from Brussels suggest five written commitments have been drafted for the UK to sign up to before negotiations can move to phase two.

Earlier on Thursday, DUP MP Ian Paisley retweeted a former Stormont minister's warning: "Beware of the Tories as the UK moves towards first stage agreement of BREXIT with the EU.

"Some senior advisers within NIO (Northern Ireland Office) may not have the best interests of NI. This will be a testing time for the DUP if they are to continue to keep the present government in power!".

DUP leader Arlene Foster said: "Her Majesty's Government have a clear understanding that the DUP will not countenance any arrangement that could lead to a new border being created in the Irish Sea.

"Indeed, the Prime Minister has been categorical on this matter in the House of Commons.

"We reiterated that United Kingdom-Republic of Ireland arrangements may be necessary as we exit the EU but there can be no arrangements agreed that compromise the integrity of the UK single market and place barriers, real or perceived, to the free movement of goods, services and capital between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom".
(my bold)