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Will East Midlands Trains' Meridians and HST's be replaced when the franchise is renewed?

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JDi

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When the line is electrified and the EMT franchise is renewed, will the MM see new trains?

Also, what do you make of the trains on the MML? Personally I really like the Meridians but am not too keen on the HST's (do the HST's really go faster than the Meridians)?
 
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Clip

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I think it will be some time yet before the whole of the line electrified so I'm guessing they may be around for a bit longer but there will soon come a time when they have to be.

I quite like the meridians too but been a while since ive been on one. May have to do a little trip in the new year
 

sprinterguy

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I believe that bi-mode trains for the intercity services will be part of any proposals for the new franchise, in anticipation of any future electrification of the main line (Electrification of the whole route being more of an "if" than a "when"). Certainly something will have to be done about the HSTs before then, though, as they are not PRM-TSI compliant post 2019 (Some sort of derogation seems most likely).

Meridians have the same top speed as the HSTs, and faster acceleration.
 

JDi

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What will happen to the HSTs when they are taken out of service?
 

sprinterguy

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What will happen to the HSTs when they are taken out of service?
Given that even their earliest potential withdrawal date is still years down the line (They won't be disabled compliant after 2019, but neither is it remotely likely that anything else will be coming in to replace them at that point), then who can say? Scrap, spot hire work, elaborate fantasies involving the driving cars of class 442s... ;) But mainly, as Clip outlines, a burgeoning second career as razor blades and baked beans tins beckons.
 
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Senex

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Also, what do you make of the trains on the MML? Personally I really like the Meridians but am not too keen on the HST's (do the HST's really go faster than the Meridians)?
No, the Meridians out-perform the HSTs. Both have the same maximum permitted speed of 125 m/h, but the Meridians have significantly better acceleration which allows them to work to faster timings. In performance terms it's the Meridians any time, but in comfort terms give me the HSTs any day—no engine-noise or vibration, no rattling luggage-racks, but above all, seats in first class properly aligned with the windows.
 

JDi

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No, the Meridians out-perform the HSTs. Both have the same maximum permitted speed of 125 m/h, but the Meridians have significantly better acceleration which allows them to work to faster timings. In performance terms it's the Meridians any time, but in comfort terms give me the HSTs any day—no engine-noise or vibration, no rattling luggage-racks, but above all, seats in first class properly aligned with the windows.
Really? How come then they have the name 'High Speed Trains' - is it a name that predated the Meridians and has stuck?
 

sprinterguy

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Really? How come then they have the name 'High Speed Trains' - is it a name that predated the Meridians and has stuck?
Of course it predates the Meridians: It's the name that was used to define the High Speed Diesel Train project when it was conceived in 1969.

At the time of their development and introduction, and for at least a decade after that, the HST fleet was the only stock routinely capable of 125mph, when everything else in the UK was still 100mph max, so it was an important differentiation. This attribute has been diluted somewhat in the modern day with the plethora of fast diesel and electric units that have manifested themselves since privatisation (and prior to that, electrification of the East Coast main line).
 

MG11

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I love Meridians and I really hope we don't lose them. They're fast, high-powered, structurally strong, modern and offer a range of passenger comfort facilities. They are also asthetically pleasing.

Whether or not they will remain after the changeover depends on the progress of the electrification project I think.

HSTs are not besuited to the stop-start nature of the route, looking at EMT's Twitter page, they often have an engine fail, which means they run slow and passengers complain on Twitter. They also lack a wheelchair area in Standard Class, even a 142 has that facility!
 

JDi

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I love Meridians and I really hope we don't lose them. They're fast, high-powered, structurally strong, modern and offer a range of passenger comfort facilities. They are also asthetically pleasing.

Whether or not they will remain after the changeover depends on the progress of the electrification project I think.

HSTs are not besuited to the stop-start nature of the route, looking at EMTs Twitter page, they often have an engine fail, which means they run slow and passengers complain on Twitter. They also lack a wheelchair area in Standard Class, even a 142 has that facility!
Hi @MG11, do you work for East Midlands Trains?:) Are you a driver?
 

Starmill

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The Sectratary of State was very clear about his intentions to have bi-modes ordered for the Midland Main Line, despite the fact that it seems not to add up whatsoever. Ordering a diesel train with a 40 year lifespan? Are we really saying that there's going to be no wires for 40 years? And of course you can remove the diesel power packs... but this generally leaves you with a very heavy and very very expensive EMU. And all for what? Just so that they can use the overhead wires between Bedford and Kettering? For the forseeable that's it, and it's only 22 miles.
 

gordonthemoron

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The Sectratary of State was very clear about his intentions to have bi-modes ordered for the Midland Main Line, despite the fact that it seems not to add up whatsoever. Ordering a diesel train with a 40 year lifespan? Are we really saying that there's going to be no wires for 40 years? And of course you can remove the diesel power packs... but this generally leaves you with a very heavy and very very expensive EMU. And all for what? Just so that they can use the overhead wires between Bedford and Kettering? For the forseeable that's it, and it's only 22 miles.

Surely they can use the wires between St Pancras and Kettering (and Wakefield-Leeds if they're still going to Neville Hill)?
 

Starmill

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Only once a plan comes forward to make the wires between St Pancras and Bedford suitable for 125mph operation...
 

sprinterguy

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Are we really saying that there's going to be no wires for 40 years?
This is the UK, so, yes, probably. :p You only get one major main line electrification per generation, you know. ;) Though it's probably the Midland Mainline's turn next - After the Great Western, it's probably the busiest main line in Europe to remain diesel worked. More practically, if HS2 trains are going to go "off piste" as planned and run onto the MML "classic" network to reach Sheffield, then you'd hope that they'd tie MML electrification into that (if it hasn't already been done), seeing as they'll have to electrify those bits anyway. So we might "only" have to wait until 2035 for Midland Mainline electrification! Quite the turnaround, I'm sure you'll agree. :lol:
 

DarloRich

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When the line is electrified and the EMT franchise is renewed, will the MM see new trains?

Also, what do you make of the trains on the MML? Personally I really like the Meridians but am not too keen on the HST's (do the HST's really go faster than the Meridians)?

Oh dear. I think the Meridians are passable but the HST is MILES better. Miles. better. If only some of the more callow members had some experience of what trains should be like.

Really? How come then they have the name 'High Speed Trains' - is it a name that predated the Meridians and has stuck?

Is this for real? Are you on the wind up?

I love Meridians and I really hope we don't lose them. They're fast, high-powered, structurally strong, modern and offer a range of passenger comfort facilities. They are also asthetically pleasing.

Whether or not they will remain after the changeover depends on the progress of the electrification project I think.

HSTs are not besuited to the stop-start nature of the route, looking at EMT's Twitter page, they often have an engine fail, which means they run slow and passengers complain on Twitter. They also lack a wheelchair area in Standard Class, even a 142 has that facility!

Funny - i have never been on an EMT HST that has had an engine failure. The Meridian is the nicest of the Voyager family, however that is like asking if you would prefer to fall from a great height and die or have something fall from a great height on to you. Then die.

However if you have only ever traveled on modern trains and never been on a proper train you haven't got much information to base a judgement on so i guess it is natural you will simply assume new = best.
 

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And of course you can remove the diesel power packs... but this generally leaves you with a very heavy and very very expensive EMU

Once the engines and associated items such as fuel tanks have been removed, are they not comparable to other High Speed EMUs weight wise?
 

Starmill

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It depends on who builds them and to what specification. The Hitachi bi-modes seem to carry over the design implications more than the Stadler ones, for example, as the latter have a removable section. They certainly wouldn't be comparable on price though.
 

MG11

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Surely they can use the wires between St Pancras and Kettering (and Wakefield-Leeds if they're still going to Neville Hill)?
It's unlikely they would still use Neville Hill, as they only use it at the moment because the HSTs are there.
 

Domh245

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It depends on who builds them and to what specification. The Hitachi bi-modes seem to carry over the design implications more than the Stadler ones, for example, as the latter have a removable section. They certainly wouldn't be comparable on price though.

Not quite sure what design implications you are talking about - presumably the higher floor in the intermediate carriages and whatever strengthening needs to be applied to the floor to enable you to hang engines off of it - but neither of those will leave you with a very heavy EMU. Heavier than it could have been, yes, but I wouldn't have thought it would be excessive. Agreed on the price front though.
 

hwl

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Only once a plan comes forward to make the wires between St Pancras and Bedford suitable for 125mph operation...
Just as well that plan is still going ahead along with the Corby electrification...
 

sprinterguy

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Once the engines and associated items such as fuel tanks have been removed, are they not comparable to other High Speed EMUs weight wise?
Yes, as far as I know. I've found it surprisingly difficult to ascertain definite weights for the class 800 series trains, but the two main values that I keep coming across suggest a weight per carriage for a pure electric class 801 set of either 46.6 or 52 tonnes per carriage. Which compares quite favourably to the 52 tonne weight of a power Pendolino vehicle, despite the extra length of the class 801.
 

hwl

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Not quite sure what design implications you are talking about - presumably the higher floor in the intermediate carriages and whatever strengthening needs to be applied to the floor to enable you to hang engines off of it - but neither of those will leave you with a very heavy EMU. Heavier than it could have been, yes, but I wouldn't have thought it would be excessive. Agreed on the price front though.
The engine, cooler group, alternator etc. are all mounted on to frame that can easily be removed (forklift style) for swap in and out type maintenance so there is very little extra weight in the body shell as the frame mounting points were very carefully though out and integrated into the overall bodyshell design.
 

Bedpan

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I love Meridians and I really hope we don't lose them. They're fast, high-powered, structurally strong, modern and offer a range of passenger comfort facilities. They are also asthetically pleasing.

Whether or not they will remain after the changeover depends on the progress of the electrification project I think.

HSTs are not best suited to the stop-start nature of the route, looking at EMT's Twitter page, they often have an engine fail, which means they run slow and passengers complain on Twitter. They also lack a wheelchair area in Standard Class, even a 142 has that facility!


I like both but for me the HTs just edge it, if only for sentimental reasons. Also I the GPS app on my phone doesn't seem to work in the Meridians. I

I can't say that I've thought of the route being particularly of a stop / start nature. obviously teh stpoopers atr, but the xx15s from St Pancras to Nottingham and the xx55s to Sheffield during the day both only have three intermediate stops.
 

edwin_m

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Only once a plan comes forward to make the wires between St Pancras and Bedford suitable for 125mph operation...
It was suggested on here somewhere that the Government had committed to this. Mind you it's the same government that un-committed to the previous committed electrification to Sheffield and Nottingham...

The engine, cooler group, alternator etc. are all mounted on to frame that can easily be removed (forklift style) for swap in and out type maintenance so there is very little extra weight in the body shell as the frame mounting points were very carefully though out and integrated into the overall bodyshell design.
The bodyshell would have to be stronger and therefore heavier to provide the support for the relatively heavy engine (etc) raft, probably more so than if the different components were separately mounted to the body as the raft would be heavier than the sum of the parts and the load would be transferred to the bodyshell at fewer places. But I can't put a figure on this.
 

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Just as well that plan is still going ahead along with the Corby electrification...
At some point between now and 2023 sure...

All of this is too late anyway, a rolling stock solution was required in time for next year for the December 2018 timetable. This is why there are fewer Thameslink trains than there were supposed to be, and there is a ridiculous need to cut trains and replace them with bus services. This has been known about for years and nothing done, which causes these big compromises now. I cannot see how a bi-mode will make that any better.
 

edwin_m

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I like both but for me the HTs just edge it, if only for sentimental reasons. Also I the GPS app on my phone doesn't seem to work in the Meridians. I

I can't say that I've thought of the route being particularly of a stop / start nature. obviously teh stpoopers atr, but the xx15s from St Pancras to Nottingham and the xx55s to Sheffield during the day both only have three intermediate stops.
Data reception isn't great on Meridians either - I can only get 3G on a lot of the route were I can get 4G on the HST.

The other trains on the MML make three stops between London and Leicester and five between London and Leicester. These slower trains are mostly Meridians. There are also quite severe restrictions at Wellingborough and Market Harborough for trains that don't stop - worse than anything on the southern halves of the ECML or the WCML I think.
 

Chester1

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Personally I think the CrossCountry Stansted and Nottingham services + stock should be transfered to the next East Midlands franchise and the Meridians transferred to CrossCountry to supplement the Voyagers. XC HSTs will be PRM TSI compliant therefore can be used elsewhere. EMT HSTs should have one carriage each made compliant (eventually forming a 6 carriage set and lots of scrap). A fleet of 800s or 802s would be fine for MML as long as the St Pancras to Bedford wires are upgraded to 125mph. Newton Aycliffe has no work after April 2019 and has a production capacity of 250 coaches per year. Any HST derogation would not need to be for long if a new fleet is ordered by the DfT in conjunction with the current opperator and made a compulsory part of bids. Perhaps this is too much common sense!
 

Starmill

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A fleet of 800s or 802s would be fine for MML as long as the St Pancras to Bedford wires are upgraded to 125mph.
Even after that work has been completed (will it be ready in time for a rollout of new trains?), only around 55% of the way to Nottingham will have been electrified, and only around 40% of the way to Sheffield. Do these numbers really make for a convincing case for bi-modes? With no commitment to onward electrification either.
 
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