Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[387star]

Strikes are not one of the three exceptions so they shouldn't work, does that mean drivers will be paid or not? Will drivers be allowed to work without an OBS or would Southern breach the agreement if they allowed this?

anyone know how badly services will be disrupted off the Brighton Main Line?

 

[pompeyfan]

As has been said before, OBS’ aren’t on strike, so unless an assisting conductor doesn’t show, the train will still have its 2nd crew member.

 

[Bromley boy]

As has been said before, OBS’ aren’t on strike, so unless an assisting conductor doesn’t show, the train will still have its 2nd crew member.

Does anyone know the union membership status of the OBS grade?

Presumably the majority, who were previously guards, have retained their RMT membership, and could be ballotted for strike action in future?

 

[Robertj21a]

Does anyone know the union membership status of the OBS grade?

Presumably the majority, who were previously guards, have retained their RMT membership, and could be ballotted for strike action in future?

Haven't quite a few of the newly recruited OBS declined to join any union ?

 

[tsr]

It is indeed the case that a number of OBSs have retained RMT membership, where they were formerly conductors. The RMT takes subs from them as "ex-conductors", although, if I remember correctly, there is unsurprisingly still no agreement between GTR and the RMT about specific unions' reps representing anyone on an OBS contract. Staff in RPI/RPO grades were also sometimes members of the RMT and some of these still appear to be subscribed in some way.

The RMT have failed to recognise the OBS grade in and of itself, and this makes something of a tricky situation if new-entrant OBSs want to be RMT members. I don't believe there's much interest by the RMT or the newer OBSs in becoming union members. Those staff who have entered the OBS role without previously being in the revenue or conductor roles would have been unaffected by the original dispute, but would also have been well aware of the problems at GTR before they joined the company, given the news coverage. Thus the RMT will be well aware that these individuals have joined the OBS grade of their own free will and will have accepted the T&Cs likewise.

A fair proportion of the conductors retained in their original grade by GTR are not RMT members, either never having been so, or else having dropped out of union membership during the recent dispute. I believe a slim majority are still in the union.

TSSA also have a handful of ex-conductor OBS members, but either no conductors or very few - perhaps a couple at Eastbourne.

 

[Bromley boy]

The RMT have failed to recognise the OBS grade in and of itself, and this makes something of a tricky situation if new-entrant OBSs want to be RMT members. I don't believe there's much interest by the RMT or the newer OBSs in becoming union members.

This seems to be a monumental error by the RMT.

That position would have been understandable at the start of the dispute. However given the way things have played out with the movement of the majority of former conductors into the OBS grade, and particularly the concessions extracted by ASLEF, surely the RMT should be welcoming these members (many of whom would be returning members) with open arms?!

Many of these members will have paid into the RMT for many years as conductors, have been moved to the OBS role through no fault of their own, and will now find themselves essentially unrepresented (I'm unsure what paying subs as an "ex conductor" member is really buying them?).

That strikes me as deeply unfair.

 

[Robertj21a]

This seems to be a monumental error by the RMT.

That position would have been understandable at the start of the dispute. However given the way things have played out with the movement of the majority of former conductors into the OBS grade, and particularly the concessions extracted by ASLEF, surely the RMT should be welcoming these members (many of whom would be returning members) with open arms?!

Many of these members will have paid into the RMT for many years as conductors, have been moved to the OBS role through no fault of their own, and will now find themselves essentially unrepresented (I'm unsure what paying subs as an "ex conductor" member is really buying them?).

That strikes me as deeply unfair.

Perhaps, as has been mentioned before, the RMT needs to look in a mirror and sort out all the areas where they need to improve.

 

[Bromley boy]

Perhaps, as has been mentioned before, the RMT needs to look in a mirror and sort out all the areas where they need to improve.

I doubt many current members would disagree with you there.

 

[Mordac]

I doubt many current members would disagree with you there.

Until they start demonstrating this by voting for a different leadership, that's a bit hollow.

 

[Chester1]

Have the TSSA tried to sign up new OBS? They would seem like the natural union for OBS recruited from outside the industry and OBS recuited from non conductor / guard roles would probably already be TSSA members.

 

[the sniper]

Have the TSSA tried to sign up new OBS? They would seem like the natural union for OBS recruited from outside the industry and OBS recuited from non conductor / guard roles would probably already be TSSA members.

Why? TSSA broadly cover office staff and are rather widely seen as barely worth joining... Admittedly it's a union that the usual suspects here would find far more agreeable though, as it's almost completely toothless.

 

[387star]

Explains minimal disruption barely a mention of strike anywhere I assumed ex guards could still strike

 

[Chrisgr31]

Perhaps, as has been mentioned before, the RMT needs to look in a mirror and sort out all the areas where they need to improve.

I think that is one common area of agreement! The RMT could have handled this dispute far better!

 

[pompeyfan]

They’ve tried to handle the other disputes differently but personally I think they’ve made a real sows ear of it.

 

[Goldfish62]

This seems to be a monumental error by the RMT.

That position would have been understandable at the start of the dispute. However given the way things have played out with the movement of the majority of former conductors into the OBS grade, and particularly the concessions extracted by ASLEF, surely the RMT should be welcoming these members (many of whom would be returning members) with open arms?!

Many of these members will have paid into the RMT for many years as conductors, have been moved to the OBS role through no fault of their own, and will now find themselves essentially unrepresented (I'm unsure what paying subs as an "ex conductor" member is really buying them?).

That strikes me as deeply unfair.

It beggars belief. The RMT is helping the management get the non-unionised workforce it's wanted all along, but I don't the suppose the headbangers leading the RMT have got enough intelligence to see this.

 

[Carlisle]

It beggars belief. The RMT is helping the management get the non-unionised workforce it's wanted all along, but I don't the suppose the headbangers leading the RMT have got enough intelligence to see this.

Maybe the general feeling is that Mr Corbyn will soon be in a position to halt all further DOO and even reverse it on the likes of Southern, given how he frequently emphasised its bosses should fear his victory during the last election campaign.

 

[12guard4]

If RMT acknowedge OBS then it will have a knock on effect for other TOCs.

 

[Kite159]

Maybe the general feeling is that Mr Corbyn will soon be in a position to halt all further DOO and even reverse it on the likes of Southern, given how he frequently emphasised its bosses should fear his victory during the last election campaign.

And what Mr Corbyn might say when he is in the opposition might not actually what he does if he gets into power.

After-all it's not like politicians lie about what policies they will bring in to try and get the electorate to vote for them

 

[Carlisle]

And what Mr Corbyn might say when he is in the opposition might not actually what he does if he gets into power.

After-all it's not like politicians lie about what policies they will bring in to try and get the electorate to vote for them

Exactly, given the sheer number and variety of funding commitments he’d made during the campaign, it’d have been a nigh on impossible task to honour them all fully

 

[the sniper]

It beggars belief. The RMT is helping the management get the non-unionised workforce it's wanted all along, but I don't the suppose the headbangers leading the RMT have got enough intelligence to see this.

Consider the bigger picture. That grade can't be recognised at this time. Look at what the DfT are specifically asking from the RMT in their most recent letter, for the RMT to officially accept the principal of DCO. Recognising the OBS grade essentially gives the DfT that concession for free...

By no means am I saying the RMT are master tacticians, but 'this is chess, not checkers'.

 

[infobleep]

It is indeed the case that a number of OBSs have retained RMT membership, where they were formerly conductors. The RMT takes subs from them as "ex-conductors", although, if I remember correctly, there is unsurprisingly still no agreement between GTR and the RMT about specific unions' reps representing anyone on an OBS contract. Staff in RPI/RPO grades were also sometimes members of the RMT and some of these still appear to be subscribed in some way.

The RMT have failed to recognise the OBS grade in and of itself, and this makes something of a tricky situation if new-entrant OBSs want to be RMT members. I don't believe there's much interest by the RMT or the newer OBSs in becoming union members. Those staff who have entered the OBS role without previously being in the revenue or conductor roles would have been unaffected by the original dispute, but would also have been well aware of the problems at GTR before they joined the company, given the news coverage. Thus the RMT will be well aware that these individuals have joined the OBS grade of their own free will and will have accepted the T&Cs likewise.

A fair proportion of the conductors retained in their original grade by GTR are not RMT members, either never having been so, or else having dropped out of union membership during the recent dispute. I believe a slim majority are still in the union.

TSSA also have a handful of ex-conductor OBS members, but either no conductors or very few - perhaps a couple at Eastbourne.

So in effect the DfT have managed to weaken the RMT, as a cost of over £60 million of course.

 

[XDM]

anyone know how badly services will be disrupted off the Brighton Main Line?

I urge forum members to carefully read the new DOO agreement. ASLEF used & accepted the word "normally" when saying all services on the Brighton main line will normally run with a second member of staff & used & agreed the word "exceptional" outside the mainline.
I think everyone, courts included, will accept that a strike is not "normal". Both parties to the deal,Southern & ASLEF, spent wagon loads of money having lawyers crawling over every word. Bye bye RMT on Southern. All trains can run on the Brighton main line, even if they are going to Ore or Southampton & Mr Cash & momentum can go whistle. Southern will have enough managers & new OBS to keep going on the extremities always.
Ps at home with family, so haven't dug out the agreement so I speak from memory but I am sure the gist of my point is exactly right & intended by both parties.

 

[Goldfish62]

Consider the bigger picture. That grade can't be recognised at this time. Look at what the DfT are specifically asking from the RMT in their most recent letter, for the RMT to officially accept the principal of DCO. Recognising the OBS grade essentially gives the DfT that concession for free...

By no means am I saying the RMT are master tacticians, but 'this is chess, not checkers'.

It depends on what we understand as recognition. If the majority, or even a substantial number, of OBSs join the RMT they will surely expect the union to demand formal recognition for collective bargaining. That is not the same as "recognising" that the OBS role is the right one.

 

[AlterEgo]

If RMT acknowedge OBS then it will have a knock on effect for other TOCs.

Of course, and now this means that there is now a growth of non-unionised staff on GTR.

RMT were thoroughly outflanked from day one, but they still sent all their troops over the top anyway, for the love of Union and Subscription. It’s been bonkers, tunnel-vision, hardcore ideology from the outset.

 

[12guard4]

Of course, and now this means that there is now a growth of non-unionised staff on GTR.

RMT were thoroughly outflanked from day one, but they still sent all their troops over the top anyway, for the love of Union and Subscription. It’s been bonkers, tunnel-vision, hardcore ideology from the outset.

The government's aim along with increasing profits from DOO is to get rid of the RMT union. They could do with joining TSSA or getting OBS grades into another union.

 

[pompeyfan]

I’m led to believe the RMT have just turned down a 3.9% payrise with no strings on one of the TOCs, just because you never accept the first offer.

 

[furnessvale]

I’m led to believe the RMT have just turned down a 3.9% payrise with no strings on one of the TOCs, just because you never accept the first offer.

In which case the TOC would be fully justified in saying any subsequent offer will be 3.9% minus the cost of any industrial action.

 

[Robertj21a]

I think 2017 will go down as the year in which the RMT finally 'lost the plot'. The organisation seems to need so much attention, and renewal, at so many levels, that members must be hoping that they can do something in 2018 to salvage what remains of it.

 

[WatcherZero]

RMT haven't put an offer of 48% increase in Sunday overtime rate at SWR to their members, and I see RMT has just put out a statement claiming there will be an explosion in the level of anti-social behaviour and crime at unmanned SWR stations if guards aren't called guards.

 

[Kite159]

RMT haven't put an offer of 48% increase in Sunday overtime rate at SWR to their members, and I see RMT has just put out a statement claiming there will be an explosion in the level of anti-social behaviour and crime at unmanned SWR stations if guards aren't called guards.

Some areas are higher in crime than others, why would it suddenly explode if the non commercial guard name gets changed, unless that mugger currently forced to wait outside the station in a darken area feels more comfortable waiting on the platform to cause crime or carry out antisocial behaviour. Having a guard didn't stop that poor girl in Witton(?) getting attacked outside the station.

Wait, its the RMT who once deemed that an accident when a drunk person walked into a lamppost in a station carpark was the fault of the train running without a guard, or someone tripping over a step rushing for a train.