Class 345 progress

[Casper]

Hello

I'm looking for some information on the 9 car Class 345. Been looking online a lot but can't find the answers. Only partial information in the Platform 5 EMU publication

1) I note they can accommodate 1500 passengers with 450 seated

2) Does anyone know the total mass for a 9 car or the breakdown of masses for DMSO, PMSO, MSO and TSO?

3) Anyone know the total power of the 9 car?

4) For the DMSO/PMSO/MSO cars, are all axles of all bogies powered? Number of motors per bogie? total motors overall for a 9 car?

I note they have two asynchronous motors of 250kW per DM/P/M/SO but (platform 5 implies 2 per motor car) but are these both on the same bogie or one per bogie?

I note they have the Flexx bogies too

Platform 5 has:

DMSO-PMSO-MSO-MSO-TSO-MSO-MSO-PMSO-DMSO

Traction motors: two asynchronous of 250kW (typically this means per motor car)

2-Bo + Bo-2 +Bo-Bo + Bo-2 + 2-2 + 2-Bo + Bo-Bo + 2-Bo + Bo-2

Implying 5000kW power...

Implying therefore the powered bogies have two motors in them?

Would like to double check this please.

thanks!

 

[samuelmorris]

Anywho, I'm sure I recall reading that Aventra traction motors were 225kW, but perhaps not. I believe that's correct regarding the motor bogies and their layout, I don't think I've ever seen a motor bogie on an EMU with only one of the axles powered.
For the weight I imagine it'll be on the stickers at the vehicle ends - can't find any clear footage of them online but I can take a look next time I travel on one.

The 450/1500 capacity figures are for the 9-car version.

 

[hwl]

Anywho, I'm sure I recall reading that Aventra traction motors were 225kW, but perhaps not. I believe that's correct regarding the motor bogies and their layout, I don't think I've ever seen a motor bogie on an EMU with only one of the axles powered.
For the weight I imagine it'll be on the stickers at the vehicle ends - can't find any clear footage of them online but I can take a look next time I travel on one.

The 450/1500 capacity figures are for the 9-car version.

Correct - Aventra traction motors are 225kW continuous rating, 265kW max (i.e. 30mins) rating. The older electrostar motors were 250kW continuous so P5 have probably been lazy or made assumptions (not the first time...).
Each powered bogie has 2 motors. Bombardier have previously made plenty of single motor axle per bogie for example the capital star 378s for London Overground (a mixture of dual and single axle powered motor bogies).
9 car is 4050kW, 7 car is 3060kW (Continuous ratings).

P 5 is correct on the 9 car being 2-Bo + Bo-2 +Bo-Bo + Bo-2 + 2-2 + 2-Bo + Bo-Bo + 2-Bo + Bo-2
Formation is: DMS-PMS-MS1-[MS3]-TS(W)-[MS3]-MS2-PMS-DMS []= in 9car only

A 7 car is 264.2tonnes (missing the 4th & 6th cars from the 9car)

Weights
DMS (not DMSO): 40.1 tonnes
PMS (not PMSO): 38.3 tonnes
MS1: 38.5 tonnes
MS2: 38.8 tonnes
TS(W): 30.83 tonnes

 

[AM9]

Interesting that the 9-car class 345s have much less seating and lower overall capacity than 12-car class 700s which are only 3 metres longer, have 4 standard toilets, 1 accessible toilet and have 3 more gangways of less than full car width. If they are 4050kW and geared for 90mph compared to 5000kW geared for 100mph then their acceleration is probably very similar up to 70mph after which the 345s flatten off and the 700s go a bit further ahead.

 

[hwl]

9 car 345 is only 204.7m i.e. equivalent to a nominal 10car 700 not a 12 car...

A 12 car 700 is 38m longer...

An 11 car 345 would be 3m longer than a 12 car 700.

The 345 has 90% of the power but only 85% of the lenght and even less weight as it has comparitively fewer bogies.

Interesting that the 9-car class 345s have much less seating and lower overall capacity than 12-car class 700s which are only 3 metres longer, have 4 standard toilets, 1 accessible toilet and have 3 more gangways of less than full car width. If they are 4050kW and geared for 90mph compared to 5000kW geared for 100mph then their acceleration is probably very similar up to 70mph after which the 345s flatten off and the 700s go a bit further ahead.

 

[DenmarkRail]

9 car 345 is only 204.7m i.e. equivalent to a nominal 10car 700 not a 12 car...

A 12 car 700 is 38m longer...

An 11 car 345 would be 3m longer than a 12 car 700.

700 style trains are possibly more suited, but it would have been suicide for the politicians / operators to not order from a ‘built in Britain’ firm.

I’ve always preferred Siemens trains, and would rather they win bids over bombardier because of quality, not political gain

 

[hwl]

700 style trains are possibly more suited, but it would have been suicide for the politicians / operators to not order from a ‘built in Britain’ firm.

I’ve always preferred Siemens trains, and would rather they win bids over bombardier because of quality, not political gain

Why are 700s more suited?
The Aventras are very well designed for example the underfloor heating under the 2+2 seating rather than ducts that get in the way of people feet in the window seats?

3 doors per car rather than 2.

Less wasted space with 1 fewer inter car connector.

...

Siemens also withdrew from Crossrail bidding as they couldn't do both contacts.

Why are Bombardier winning most of the orders recently?

 

[mrmartin]

More really bad delays again due to faulty train? Is it another 345?

 

[AM9]

9 car 345 is only 204.7m i.e. equivalent to a nominal 10car 700 not a 12 car ...

Ooops, my mistake I had somehow got 11 car lengths in my head. Still 4050kW is 81% of 5000kW not 90% so the power difference is enough to equalise the effective acceleration.
Similarly, the 7-car units are about 1m longer than the 8-car 700s yet the power comparison is 3060kW (class 345) vs. 3333kW (class 700).

 

[iphone76]

More really bad delays again due to faulty train? Is it another 345?

Yes - another 345 (Door) fault at Seven Kings on the up road this morning. I also believe there was another fault earlier in the morning.

 

[iphone76]

So how many 345s diagrams will there be then? I've lost count. Also, how many of the 345 diagrams are all-day, rather than just peak only?

I’m not too sure. I’ll try and find out.

 

[samuelmorris]

Any insiders know if there is any plan to fix the driver's microphones? Not being able to remotely hear the driver over deafening screaming feedback and 50Hz interference is pretty poor for approaching 7 months in service. It's as the point now when if an announcement is coming I think I'll put my fingers in my ears, it really hurts!

 

[iphone76]

Any insiders know if there is any plan to fix the driver's microphones? Not being able to remotely hear the driver over deafening screaming feedback and 50Hz interference is pretty poor for approaching 7 months in service. It's as the point now when if an announcement is coming I think I'll put my fingers in my ears, it really hurts!

Not that I'm aware of. It does put you off making a PA to a certain extent, as you don't want to make anyone's ears bleed. Some units are better than others and with some handsets it isn't too bad if you hold it in a particular way. (Unfortunately with each unit this appears to be different - some are better close up - others further away).

I always report any feedback I can hear coming from the train so they are aware of the issue. Hopefully this 'feature' is resolved soon.

 

[samuelmorris]

It's funny you mention that as the worst cases of it have all occurred on 006. But why should that be the case? For all their myriad of PIS faults, the microphones on the 700s largely seem to work fine.

 

[iphone76]

It's funny you mention that as the worst cases of it have all occurred on 006. But why should that be the case? For all their myriad of PIS faults, the microphones on the 700s largely seem to work fine.

Yes. I’ve reported that one a few times. They are aware of the issue.

 

[hassaanhc]

Some of the GWR 387s also have a whistling noise when the PA is used

 

[macaronlover]

 

[samuelmorris]

Yeah they all look like that. This time of year so do most units.

 

[KC1]

I’ve always preferred Siemens trains, and would rather they win bids over bombardier because of quality, not political gain

So a 700 is better than a 345? Hmm. In your opinion perhaps and I’m sure that the the 345 was chosen because it was a better design than ‘political gain’. The 700 is the most basic and dull train built in recent times and one of the most uncomfortable to boot.

 

[Agent_Squash]

So a 700 is better than a 345? Hmm. In your opinion perhaps and I’m sure that the the 345 was chosen because it was a better design than ‘political gain’. The 700 is the most basic and dull train built in recent times and one of the most uncomfortable to boot.

Only because the DfT got involved with the interior...

 

[AM9]

So a 700 is better than a 345? Hmm. In your opinion perhaps and I’m sure that the the 345 was chosen because it was a better design than ‘political gain’. The 700 is the most basic and dull train built in recent times and one of the most uncomfortable to boot.

Clearly don't remember the clamour that there was because a foreign manufacturer won the contract for the largest UK rolling stock order in recent years. The press and news media were very critical of the selection because of the effect of exporting jobs and the posibility of the Bombardier factory in Derby being under threat of closure. Here to remind you:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2011/jun/16/bombardier-at-risk-after-loss-of-thameslink-deal

"The future of Britain's last remaining train factory was thrown into doubt on Thursday after the government named an overseas consortium as the preferred bidder for a £3bn contract to make carriages for the upgraded Thameslink route."​

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13792510 -

"It is a crucial time for Bombardier, which employs 3,000 people in Derby, as most current orders will soon be finished."​

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/10119477/Bombardier-blow-as-Siemens-wins-1.6bn-Thameslink-deal.html -

"Bombardier blow as Siemens wins £1.6bn Thameslink deal
Ministers are embroiled in a jobs for British workers row after confirming that Siemens had won the £1.6bn contract to build rolling stock for the Thameslink line." ​

Even if the class 700s aren't as good as the class 345s in your opinion, don't let it cloud your memory of well documented events that happened just seven years ago. Anyway, despite the class 345s getting a very gentle introduction on the GEML, they seem to be having an increasing number of problems and there's only a handful of them running. The class 700s had a few problems down to the signalling infrastructre, power supply mode changeover and a few problems entirely attributed to the trains themselves, - so not bad for what will soon be over 1100 cars in full service.

 

[Ronnie268]

Also, some of the 345s have grab handles with flat bottoms (which are much more comfortable to hold), and some have conventional straps like on S-stock. Is this mixture intentional?

 

[47802]

Clearly don't remember the clamour that there was because a foreign manufacturer won the contract for the largest UK rolling stock order in recent years. The press and news media were very critical of the selection because of the effect of exporting jobs and the posibility of the Bombardier factory in Derby being under threat of closure. Here to remind you:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2011/jun/16/bombardier-at-risk-after-loss-of-thameslink-deal

"The future of Britain's last remaining train factory was thrown into doubt on Thursday after the government named an overseas consortium as the preferred bidder for a £3bn contract to make carriages for the upgraded Thameslink route."​

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13792510 -

"It is a crucial time for Bombardier, which employs 3,000 people in Derby, as most current orders will soon be finished."​

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/10119477/Bombardier-blow-as-Siemens-wins-1.6bn-Thameslink-deal.html -

"Bombardier blow as Siemens wins £1.6bn Thameslink deal
Ministers are embroiled in a jobs for British workers row after confirming that Siemens had won the £1.6bn contract to build rolling stock for the Thameslink line." ​

Even if the class 700s aren't as good as the class 345s in your opinion, don't let it cloud your memory of well documented events that happened just seven years ago. Anyway, despite the class 345s getting a very gentle introduction on the GEML, they seem to be having an increasing number of problems and there's only a handful of them running. The class 700s had a few problems down to the signalling infrastructre, power supply mode changeover and a few problems entirely attributed to the trains themselves, - so not bad for what will soon be over 1100 cars in full service.

I wouldn't like to say which the best train I suspect both are very good trains while most new trains usually have some teething problems to be resolved including the 800's which seemed have had a lot of testing before introduction while it did seem to me that the testing period for the 345's didn't seem to be that long which may account for a very much more gradual introduction into service.

While judging trains on seating and interior fitting as many people seem to do is largely irrelevant given that they are largely specified by the customer, as we can see from the mockup's the interior and seating will be very different on Anglia Aventra compared to a Crossrail Aventra.

 

[samuelmorris]

Interior spec notwithstanding, the Aventra so far seems to me the better product, it's considerably quieter and seems slightly better at managing temperature than the 700s have, plus the PIS, for its flaws and current lack of features, is far more reliable than that on the Desiro City. Actual unit reliability still seems pretty bad, but it's still early days yet I suppose.

 

[96tommy]

How many 345's are running now? Just got back from London after xmas and can see the GEML from the house. Seems to be a fair few more running today than before Xmas

 

[KC1]

Clearly don't remember the clamour that there was because a foreign manufacturer won the contract for the largest UK rolling stock order in recent years. The press and news media were very critical of the selection because of the effect of exporting jobs and the posibility of the Bombardier factory in Derby being under threat of closure. Here to remind you:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2011/jun/16/bombardier-at-risk-after-loss-of-thameslink-deal

"The future of Britain's last remaining train factory was thrown into doubt on Thursday after the government named an overseas consortium as the preferred bidder for a £3bn contract to make carriages for the upgraded Thameslink route."​

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13792510 -

"It is a crucial time for Bombardier, which employs 3,000 people in Derby, as most current orders will soon be finished."​

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/10119477/Bombardier-blow-as-Siemens-wins-1.6bn-Thameslink-deal.html -

"Bombardier blow as Siemens wins £1.6bn Thameslink deal
Ministers are embroiled in a jobs for British workers row after confirming that Siemens had won the £1.6bn contract to build rolling stock for the Thameslink line." ​

Even if the class 700s aren't as good as the class 345s in your opinion, don't let it cloud your memory of well documented events that happened just seven years ago. Anyway, despite the class 345s getting a very gentle introduction on the GEML, they seem to be having an increasing number of problems and there's only a handful of them running. The class 700s had a few problems down to the signalling infrastructre, power supply mode changeover and a few problems entirely attributed to the trains themselves, - so not bad for what will soon be over 1100 cars in full service.

Do you read the Class 700 forum?

Have Abellio gone for Aventra’s because politics?
Have SWR gone for Aventra’s and susbsequently dumped the 707’s because of politics?
Same goes for orders for c2c, London Overground and others in the pipeline.

However, we are all entitled to our opinion.

 

[capital12]

I’d say the interior of the 345 wins hands down but that is more to do with client specifications than builder. TfL have clearly put more thought into it than the cretins at the DfT who specced the 700.

However on build quality I’d say Siemens will always beat the cheap feel of a Bombardier product, and the ride always feels better too. On identical bits of track a Desiro can run along smoothly and an Electrostar feels like it’s about to launch itself into the cess!

 

[samuelmorris]

The 345s are no better or worse than Bombardier's usual standard, already I've seen one lighting fitting having fallen off and some vehicles do make some alarming noises from the ventilation areas. The 700s just don't have the quality feel of other Siemens products that came before them though. I don't know whether it's to do with the interior spec or some cost saving requests by the DfT but compared to Desiro UK units they feel quite cheap and tacky by comparison. 345s on the outside seem fairly well engineered but after they've done a few years' intensive service I think the difference in manufacturing standard will begin to show. The question is, will operator neglect from GTR outpace the natural ageing process of a lower-grade construction? Hopefully once the TL programme is done and dusted the franchise will pass to an operator that takes some pride in their work.

 

[AM9]

The 345s are no better or worse than Bombardier's usual standard, already I've seen one lighting fitting having fallen off and some vehicles do make some alarming noises from the ventilation areas. The 700s just don't have the quality feel of other Siemens products that came before them though. I don't know whether it's to do with the interior spec or some cost saving requests by the DfT but compared to Desiro UK units they feel quite cheap and tacky by comparison. 345s on the outside seem fairly well engineered but after they've done a few years' intensive service I think the difference in manufacturing standard will begin to show. The question is, will operator neglect from GTR outpace the natural ageing process of a lower-grade construction? Hopefully once the TL programme is done and dusted the franchise will pass to an operator that takes some pride in their work.

Whilst i would agree that Thameslink's class 700s don't seem to be externally cleaned as often as some fleets are, with the exception of getting the PIS firmware/software running consistently, the trains are performing broadly as required on very difficult routes in terms of gradients, track alignment/condition/complexity, very high passenger loadings, two power-supply changeovers per return journey and much of their running under full speed. At the moment, the class 345s are jogging along the GEML with relatively simple track layouts, moderate to high passenger loadings, all on 25kV at speeds (istr) no more than 80mph. Considering their easier task so far, they still seem to be having high failure rates per hour/mile.
I don't think that either class has 'lower-grade construction', they are modern trains built to a contract spec., using current best design practice for different roles. The problem is that aesthetic issues such as internal and external colour schemes, seat design or even the location of the seat cantilever rail aren't indicators of poor engineering, manufacturing quality or poor TOC treatment, they are just consequences of the procurement specification as authorised by the DfT. The class 700 seat issue in particular seems to be clouding the judgement of many here, - try asking some of their drivers who have real experience of lower-grade construction and poor electromechanical design.

 

[Wivenswold]

But which is better? A 700 or a 345?

There's only one way to find out....

FIGHT!