YorkshireBear
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Yes, but the capacity that already exists is about to lead to a massive increase in services. So its not like today we are at saturation.
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Manchester - Stalybridge Electrification
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Yes, but the capacity that already exists is about to lead to a massive increase in services. So its not like today we are at saturation.
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RailUK Forums
IIRC, during the Northern Hub project, the "theoretical" platform capacity of the 4 through platforms was variously stated as 24tph in each direction or 30tph (one every 4 or 5 mins). All totally academic as this figure would lead to significant conflicts on the station approaches and way exceed the capacity of two lines to the east. So no the 4 through platforms at Victoria aren't the bottleneck for capacity.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
I see NW-SPARKS is reporting http://nw-sparks.co.uk/works.php?id=494 that Manchester Victoria is closed March 30th - April 2nd - I assume this is in connection with this project?
twpsaesneg
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There's a track lower still to be done, this could be for that. There's a series of weekend blocks East of Vic over the next few months which should see more steel erected.
They are only tight because EMUs can't reach Stalybridge. The electrification to Miles Platting and the sidings is occuring because of a lack of electrification or western facing terminating platforms.
In the long term I think there should be aproximately 12tph through Victoria:
- 4 TPE
- 3 Northern Connect
- 2 EMUs terminating at Stalybridge
- 2 DMUs terminating at Rochdale
- 1 Burnley to Manchester Airport
If this is insufficient then 1 or 2 terminating platforms should be built on the trackbed of the western approach to old through platforms that are now under the arena, combined with an extra entrance at the western end of platform 3.
Victoria needs customer facility improvements first. The Northern ground floor offices and rooms on platform 3 should be converted into a waiting room, first class lounge and toilets. Platforms 3 and 4 need more natural light through replacing the roof on each platform with glass or transparent plastic. At least one cash machine and extra ticket machines at the station would be helpful improvements too.
There will be only one EMU into Victoria in the planned May 18 timetable. In normal operation it arrives from Preston at Platform 5 at x.00 and returns at x.05, hardly a problem. There will only be 2 DMUs from Atherton terminating at Victoria and while they may have longer dwell times, they can run through and wait at Brewery Junction without blocking any through services (as this service does waiting there for 15mins). The lack of west facing platforms is not a problem.
Plus a Leeds-Brighouse-Southport service makes 13
In the unlikely event of Brewery Junction being insufficient for terminators from the west, there are plenty of other opportunities for west-facing sidings east of Victoria, using the fourth track of the 4 track section of the Calder Valley line, at Collyhurst St or the Cheetham Hill loop line, without buildiing more platforms at Victoria. I agree with you that Victoria needs better faclities though. An escalator would be nice!
Don't you mean 26 as you and Chester1 have only included trains in one direction per hour?
Yes but the convention on the site is to measure frequency by pairs of services.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
And some escalators and waiting/refreshment facilities on the north side platforms.
It really is a very basic station, despite the grand architecture on the south side.
Got to say I'm surprised they didn't do more when Vic went through the refurb a few years back.. all it would take is a glass structure around what is currently the ticket office, would be able to have it heated then, would be a much nicer area for passengers getting tickets or using the self service machines and would easily be able to have 1 corner for the customer information point..
Wouldn't even need to be huge, could have it the width of the ticket office and have it coming out as far as the concrete pillars that are already there..
Eccles1983
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No chance of the offices on p3 being changed.
Its all the traincrews sop and rest rooms/lockers.
There was talk of moving the staff to the floors above hunts bank - the building renovations will cost millions so has been kiboshed.
Its all the traincrews sop and rest rooms/lockers.
There was talk of moving the staff to the floors above hunts bank - the building renovations will cost millions so has been kiboshed.
It is the only available space for new passenger facilities though. At some point after the new TPE timetable starts there will be a backlash over the lack of waiting facilities. Its absurd to spend £40m+ on part of the station and then not move some staff facilities upstairs to provide a waiting room.
Foggycorner
Member
Why do you need a room to wait in when you have the whole of the station under a roof to wait in?
Maybe so but there must be a better way for Northern/Network rail to utilise the available space.. doesn't even have to affect the offices or the train crew depot/mess rooms.. a couple of glass cubes/structures may be expensive but would add so much for the travelling public.. whilst it may be a distance away the parts of the concourse up towards java coffee and M&S could definitely be utilised better than it currently is.. If anything these improvements could free up some more office space for the train crew depot.
Eccles1983
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There is nowhere for over 250 staff to go.
The building is not financially viable to move all staff, including safes, lockers and various equipment to as the building needs vast repair. They have looked into it, and it will simply cost too much money.
Several million apparently is the price quoted.
If the building needs vast repair the money will have to be spent eventually and funding will be hard to justify for staff facilities. Several million is very little compared to the paused plans for Oxford Road or compared with the money spent the southern part of the station. Who owns the building?
Elecman
Established Member
The station buildings are owned by Network Rail, and leased to the TOC on a maintaining lease
The value of retail and office space in central Manchester is rising fast and there are large developments being built near Victoria its entirely possible that Network Rail will decide to cash in on the office space and convert the ground floor into passenger facilities and more commercial space. A more immediate solution would be installing small heated waiting rooms on platforms 3-6 but it would not match the TfN and DfT aspirations for the station. How many of the 250 Northern staff actually need to be based at Victoria rather than just near a station in Greater Manchester? On current construction trends the station buildings will be ripe for redevelopment.
Eccles1983
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The 250 is drivers and guards, and is actually lower than the actual establishment. It in reality could be closer to 350.
They all need to be based there, unless you are proposing to close the station as a depot, so that passengers have somewhere to sit.
And even to convert the existing area into something that passengers would want to sit in would cost a pretty penny as well. It's a dump. Ask any travelling traincrew - the place is damp and too small for its purpose already.
They all need to be based there, unless you are proposing to close the station as a depot, so that passengers have somewhere to sit.
And even to convert the existing area into something that passengers would want to sit in would cost a pretty penny as well. It's a dump. Ask any travelling traincrew - the place is damp and too small for its purpose already.
Even assuming that there really really really was nowhere else in Manchester the arena could have gone, other than plonked in the middle of one of its major stations, quite why they didn't build a proper mezzanine for the station as part of the arena development, I do not know.
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At the moment, I think any kind of mezzanine area level with the arena is out of the question unless/until access/security concerns can be resolved. Since 22nd May last year, the whole issue having taken on rather a different dimension.
I wasn't making specific suggestion simply arguing that the value of commercial property in Manchester City Centre and particularly in the area near Victoria means a complete refurbishment of the building might pay for itself if a cheaper altetnative building can be found. The redevelopment of the Hanover building and possible lease by Amazon highlights the interest in redeveloped historical buildings in the surrounding area. Victoria certainly needs more facilities if it is to become a major railway station again, not just a heated waiting room. The entire ground floor of both buildings should be passenger facilities and retail and refreshment units.
Members of the site who can remember the station before its 90s redevelopment do seem to have a tendency to dislike the arena. It won't be altered much for the reasons explained by Mathew S. The wiring to Bromley street highlights that there are cheap options for increasing capacity without adding extra platforms. The tunnel appearance would be reduced if the roofs of platforms 3 and 4 where replaced with something transparent. Glass box heated waiting rooms on platforms 3 to 6 would probably be the cheapest way to provide decent waiting facilities, its quite unpleasant to stand out in the cold for 10 to 15 minutes during the winter!
The whole station is a botch job and extending overheads to Bromley Street is another expensive botch to try and correct the first botch ad infinitum.
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Which Burnley station is referred to above? Why not Blackburn?
Even before then, I thought the prospects of the arena entrance being repurposed as a new superbridge for the station were minimal. In this respect, as in so.maby others, the arena seems to have hamstrung Victoria as a station.
If it were to happen if would be Blackburn. From Blackburn it'd still be quicker to change for the Airport at Salford Crescent though, or even Victoria. Currently it seems unlikely there will be room for anything beyond the franchise requirements through Oxford Road and Piccadilly, if indeed those can be accommodated reliably without the promised infrastructure improvements.
Ploughman
Established Member
At Man Vic is there any form of basement level that could be used?
If they're not happy to allow the public onto the mezzanine for security reasons, how do you think they feel about the basement?
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