• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

What happened to the proposed HS1-HS2 link?

Status
Not open for further replies.

BluePenguin

On Moderation
Joined
26 Sep 2016
Messages
1,605
Location
Kent
Moderator note: split from Carillion in financial trouble.


Just wanted to randomly ask does anyone know whether the HS1 link to HS2 will be under threat because of this. I have a few friends in Stoke on Trent, Birminghma and Liverpool I visit and it would be huge advantage to getting to those places quicker as I wouldn't have to go through the hassle of changing train at Euston
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
Just wanted to randomly ask does anyone know whether the HS1 link to HS2 will be under threat because of this. I have a few friends in Stoke on Trent, Birminghma and Liverpool I visit and it would be huge advantage to getting to those places quicker as I wouldn't have to go through the hassle of changing train at Euston

There was never going to be an HS1/HS2 link...
 

BluePenguin

On Moderation
Joined
26 Sep 2016
Messages
1,605
Location
Kent
There was never going to be an HS1/HS2 link...
Yes there was. There are various drawings and diagrams of it on the Internet like ones I have attached.
 

Attachments

  • image.png
    image.png
    972.2 KB · Views: 170
  • image.png
    image.png
    57.4 KB · Views: 176
  • image.png
    image.png
    27.5 KB · Views: 159

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,707
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Yes there was. There are various drawings and diagrams of it on the Internet like ones I have attached.
Yes, but it didn't make it to the HS2 Bill and has been dropped from the plans.
Like the connection to Heathrow that was originally proposed.
The business case was abysmal. Attempts were made to reduce the costs to something more acceptable, but without success.
I don't think there is any passive provision for a future connection either.
This is nothing to do with Carillion, though.
 

BluePenguin

On Moderation
Joined
26 Sep 2016
Messages
1,605
Location
Kent
Yes, but it didn't make it to the HS2 Bill and has been dropped from the plans.
Like the connection to Heathrow that was originally proposed.
The business case was abysmal. Attempts were made to reduce the costs to something more acceptable, but without success.
I don't think there is any passive provision for a future connection either.
This is nothing to do with Carillion, though.
Thanks for explains that. I thought the idea of regional Eurostars would have been a good case. Never mind.

I know this isn't directly linked, but had costs not been as high and had companies such as Carillion been able to keep themselves above float then cuts to links like this wouldn't have to have been made in the first place! At this rate it is unlikely any of us will live to see HS2 completed
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,869
Location
Yorkshire
Just wanted to randomly ask does anyone know whether the HS1 link to HS2 will be under threat because of this. I have a few friends in Stoke on Trent, Birminghma and Liverpool I visit and it would be huge advantage to getting to those places quicker as I wouldn't have to go through the hassle of changing train at Euston
I have moved this discussion out of the Carrillion thread to a new thread in the appropriate forum. Feel free to choose an appropriate thread title of your choice (under Thread Tools).
 

jyte

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2016
Messages
670
Location
in me shed
IIRC, the problem was that the 'cheap' (or more accurately cheapest) option would involve (very briefly!) running HS1/HS2 services along the NLL between Camden Road Central junction and Camden Road West Junction, with probably some extra considerable civil engineering work around Camden Junction.

The sticking point here was TFL, who've desired to run a proper 'turn up and go' service on the NLL since forever, and consider basically anything that isn't a 378 running over 'their patch' to be the devil incarnate. A lot of the stretch could easily have been quadrupled, except the bridge over Camden Street and Kentish Town Road, which is only 2 track with no room to expand. It was looking to be a borough-market sized job, potentially larger if a portal had to be built somewhere around Euston to take the trains from the NLL down into the HS2 tunnels!

Plus, keeping HS1 and HS2 physically separate is probably a good idea. A HS2 train running through the tunnel would need endless different signalling and power systems to work in Europe and would need to clear the tunnel's still pretty strict fire regs. I seriously doubt (because signalling contracts are usually done last) that HS2 ltd would opt for the french cab signalling system (TVM) used on the Eurostar services/HS1.

Of course, ETCS/ERTMS might have cleared up the interoperability problems, but the adoption of that is also glacial.

Which reminds me how glad I am that BR (in probably their best moment of forward thinking ever) adopted 25Kv50Hz as the OHLE standard in this country.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,447
The DfT published reasons for removal of the link back in 2015:

The Government deposited a hybrid Bill with Parliament in November 2013 to secure the powers to construct and operate Phase One of HS2 between London and the West Midlands. The hybrid Bill originally included a link to the Channel Tunnel Rail Link (HS1) in London, allowing some services to continue directly to mainland Europe via the Channel Tunnel. In March 2014, ‘HS2 Plus’, the first Higgins Report, concluded that the proposed link to HS1 had operational limitations and a number of adverse impacts. The Secretary of State subsequently announced his decision to remove the link from the hybrid Bill.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/480372/HS2-HS1_report.pdf
 

ijmad

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2016
Messages
1,810
Location
UK
The sticking point here was TFL, who've desired to run a proper 'turn up and go' service on the NLL since forever, and consider basically anything that isn't a 378 running over 'their patch' to be the devil incarnate. A lot of the stretch could easily have been quadrupled, except the bridge over Camden Street and Kentish Town Road, which is only 2 track with no room to expand. It was looking to be a borough-market sized job, potentially larger if a portal had to be built somewhere around Euston to take the trains from the NLL down into the HS2 tunnels!.

I'd strongly prefer a reliable turn-up-and-go NLL service, which has very clear economic benefit, over the minor inconvenience of Euston to St Pancras interchange. The NLL will likely be busier by the time HS2 opens, and plenty of options exist for bridging the gap without hitting the Circle line, such as a people mover or even an extension of the DLR.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,061
Location
UK
There's surely nothing that says in 20 or 30 years the idea might not resurface, so never say never.. Just don't expect anything for now.

I assume rail usage will continue to grow, and certainly don't believe that within the 'next 10 years' (as always gets stated year after year) we'll somehow all have driverless cars we request on our phones that simply turn up to take us anywhere we want.
 

ijmad

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2016
Messages
1,810
Location
UK
There's surely nothing that says in 20 or 30 years the idea might not resurface, so never say never.. Just don't expect anything for now.

I assume rail usage will continue to grow, and certainly don't believe that within the 'next 10 years' (as always gets stated year after year) we'll somehow all have driverless cars we request on our phones that simply turn up to take us anywhere we want.

IMHO, it's certainly possible, but it's a sufficiently unclear 'punt' at the moment we can't make transport infrastructure decisions assuming it will happen.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,745
The high cost and negligible (compared to any other branches) traffic of the HS2-HS1 link and the Heathrow link got them both axed, rightly in my opinion.
 
Last edited:

ijmad

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2016
Messages
1,810
Location
UK
The high cost and negligible (compared to any other branches) of the HS2-HS1 link and the Heathrow link got them both axed, rightly in my opinion.

Much better served with a step-free interchange to Crossrail at Old Oak Common, which seems to be going ahead.
 

PeterC

Established Member
Joined
29 Sep 2014
Messages
4,087
There might have been a case for a regional Eurostar service if we had gone into Schengen or had even just accepted on train passport checks.
 

po8crg

Member
Joined
6 Feb 2014
Messages
559
I'm annoyed that when they dropped it from the Bill (and it was included in the original version of the HS2 Bill), they also removed the spur from the station box at Old Oak Common, which means that retro-fitting a HS2-HS1 link will involve tearing apart OOC station, or adding a new junction - which will need a considerable shutdown of a by-then operating railway line.

Contrast this with the efforts of the Northern Powerhouse Rail project to ensure there are junctions built-in to HS2 around Manchester and Leeds so that their desired lines can be added in later.
 

ijmad

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2016
Messages
1,810
Location
UK
I'm annoyed that when they dropped it from the Bill (and it was included in the original version of the HS2 Bill), they also removed the spur from the station box at Old Oak Common, which means that retro-fitting a HS2-HS1 link will involve tearing apart OOC station, or adding a new junction - which will need a considerable shutdown of a by-then operating railway line.

Contrast this with the efforts of the Northern Powerhouse Rail project to ensure there are junctions built-in to HS2 around Manchester and Leeds so that their desired lines can be added in later.

Not entirely sure I follow, surely any HS1-HS2 link would be in the Euston/St Pancras area, not the Old Oak Common area. Do you mean the Heathrow link or am I missing something obvious?
 

deltic

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2010
Messages
3,224
IMHO, it's certainly possible, but it's a sufficiently unclear 'punt' at the moment we can't make transport infrastructure decisions assuming it will happen.
It will never happen without a fundamental change in how the UK deals with international traffic - ie allowing domestic and international passengers to travel on the same train
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
Not entirely sure I follow, surely any HS1-HS2 link would be in the Euston/St Pancras area, not the Old Oak Common area. Do you mean the Heathrow link or am I missing something obvious?

Old Oak would have had two dedicated 'international' platforms in the station box. Retro-fitting these later would be a pain.

However that'd be a doddle compared to retro-fitting a junction cavern to the HS2 tunnels between Old Oak and Euston...
 

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
Interestingly enough, two prominent Brexiteers (Michael Fabricant and Bill Cash) as well as Jeremy Lefroy have tabled an amendment to the HS2 phase 2a bill objecting to it on the grounds of (amongst others) of it failing "to connect via HS2 Phase 1 with HS1, the Channel Tunnel and the European continent, fails to connect directly through HS2 Phase 1 with potential airport hubs for London and the south-east of England,"
 

snowball

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2013
Messages
7,746
Location
Leeds
Have they ensured it though?

The government could always go back on its promise to fund seven touchpoints with NPR, as with any other government promise, or they could drop NPR altogether, but it would cause a big stink.
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,262
Location
Torbay
Interestingly enough, two prominent Brexiteers (Michael Fabricant and Bill Cash) as well as Jeremy Lefroy have tabled an amendment to the HS2 phase 2a bill objecting to it on the grounds of (amongst others) of it failing "to connect via HS2 Phase 1 with HS1, the Channel Tunnel and the European continent, fails to connect directly through HS2 Phase 1 with potential airport hubs for London and the south-east of England,"

There is no significant market for direct trains from the UK provinces to the continent as others have said repeatedly. The problem is which city pairs to connect and at what frequency. London will always have the best connectivity with Europe in terms of number of continental cities served and attractive frequencies on each route. Even with a change in London, using that more comprehensive service in conjunction with normal domestic intercity routes is going to be more attractive to many travellers than a very sparse service, say twice daily from Manchester via Birmingham Interchange to Lille and Paris, and that would require security, customs and immigration facilities to be set up at those provincial stations and possibly offer no opportunity to also carry domestic passengers.

In my view, the most promising solution in London is to connect Euston and St Pancras with a high quality pedestrian link (possibly enhanced with moving walkways part of the way) so the transfer can be achieved in under 10 minutes largely undercover without crossing any busy roads or having to wait for trains or any other transfer vehicles (note: trolleys, golf carts etc could also be made available across the whole 'railport' complex for those that need them). London's full continental service would thus become easily available to any HS2 traveller arriving at Euston with one simple transfer via a station that's already equipped to deal with the security, customs and immigration concerns. As a feat of extreme crayonism I would also suggest rerouting longer distance GWR services services that currently serve Paddington into Euston, via a new connection from Old Oak Common to near Queens Park, thence using classic tracks into the enlarged terminus. That way ALL of London's longer distance domestic intercity services would be available a fairly short walk from the international terminal delivering outstanding levels of connectivity. Connections via Elizabeth Line would still be available at OOC for GWR customers going to West End, City and Docklands.

As to the airport concern, Heathrow is already planned to be served directly at high frequency by Elizabeth Line from Old Oak Common. This can be used in conjunction with any of the the relatively high frequency HS2 London services, which are also all planned to stop at OOC. With my improved pedestrian link to St Pancras, HS2 customers would also be able to transfer quickly to Thameslink services that will take them to Gatwick. These connections, available all day at high frequency, will likely be far more convenient for most customers than relatively infrequent direct services from the north to the airports.
 

po8crg

Member
Joined
6 Feb 2014
Messages
559
Old Oak would have had two dedicated 'international' platforms in the station box. Retro-fitting these later would be a pain.

However that'd be a doddle compared to retro-fitting a junction cavern to the HS2 tunnels between Old Oak and Euston...

In a retro-fit, it'd be a hell of a lot easier (expensive, mind) to run a new tunnel from Old Oak Common to the St Pancras approaches and put your junction above ground there - there's already a connector from HS1 onto the NLL there, which is almost unused (there's an occasional freight, I think, but rerouting a long-distance freight isn't a killer). You could sever the link to NLL, and run that connector into a tunnel portal (you'd have to rebuild the viaducts that currently run from HS1 to NLL and knock down a couple of industrial units, but no housing - there's just about enough room to get under the MML). In effect that would extend HS1 to Old Oak, and then you could run international services from Old Oak or HS2 through it, though they couldn't stop at St Pancras without adding a reverse curve that I'm very doubtful there is room for. You'd probably build this as a single-track tunnel - it's only about five or six miles, which should be capable of at least 4tph each way, and I can't see you having demand for more than an hourly service.

But I don't think there's enough demand to justify this; a better connection between Euston and St Pancras would allow for a much more frequent service on net - from (for example) Manchester, you'd be able to get a 3tph service to Euston combined with the hourly Eurostar to Paris or the (roughly) 1tp2h to Brussels. No way can Manchester justify more than a tiny fraction of that direct to Paris, and not being able to carry either Manchester-London or London-Paris passengers on a Manchester-London train means that you'd have to have Manchester-Paris direct passengers only (you could do pickups at Birmingham Interchange and Old Oak, but that doesn't make enough difference: two to four trains a day would be the limit).

There are only two ways this makes sense. One is something like Euston Cross, combined with a massive change to the security/immigration rules on the Tunnel, to allow for a through train to run Manchester-London-Paris, at which point all of the Eurostar services are joined with an HS2 service and extended up the country. You'd have to allow Manchester-London and London-Paris passengers to use the same train, and the Manchester-London bit to be like a normal domestic train.

The other way is if there is lots of demand for domestic services through the link - but there isn't; because if you're on a GA train coming from Essex or Norwich or Ipswich or somewhere, then your better option is to change to Crossrail at Stratford or Liverpool Street and get across to Old Oak compared to walking through Westfield to Stratford International, and if you're coming from Kent, then you're going to have to change at Ebbsfleet or Ashford unless you live there (no way are they going to put shoes on an HS2 CC train and run them around Kent). And if you're going to have to change anyway, then changing between St Pancras and Euston isn't enough of a difference that avoiding it is going to be a huge traffic generator.

Maybe I've missed some huge destination in Essex or Kent that would transform that, or some proposal to build one. If Ebbsfleet Garden City is going to have a million homes by 2040, then, sure, build the link. But the last number I saw was fifteen thousand.
 

Muzer

Established Member
Joined
3 Feb 2012
Messages
2,773
It's also worth noting that Crossrail 2 has plans for a "Euston St. Pancras" station. I don't know exactly what form this would take but it seems reasonable to me that it could include facilities for easy covered interchange between Euston and St. Pancras. Not to do so would be like building Bank/Monument's northern line platforms as they are today...
 

Abpj17

Member
Joined
5 Jul 2014
Messages
1,007
It's also worth noting that Crossrail 2 has plans for a "Euston St. Pancras" station. I don't know exactly what form this would take but it seems reasonable to me that it could include facilities for easy covered interchange between Euston and St. Pancras. Not to do so would be like building Bank/Monument's northern line platforms as they are today...

The British Library is rather in the way though for anything above ground.
 

TheDavibob

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2016
Messages
407
The British Library is rather in the way though for anything above ground.
Or anything below ground: the Crossrail 2 plans have the lines and the station running alongside the north of the Library. The depth of the Crossrail platforms would make it a non-ideal path for walking between the stations, too, though at least it would exist. An enhanced Euston Square station with easy access from Euston itself would do the most to ensure connectivity between the Euston Road stations, I think, with the advantage of the depth of the subsurface lines.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top