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Steam Trains!

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EastMidsMatt

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Hi,

Does anyone know how you can get to drive steam trains? I'll be fully qualified as a depot driver this year and then hopefully passenger trains in 2-3 years time.

I'm assuming, maybe wrongly, that there's a separate training course for steam trains?

There's the Great Central Railway local to me and we hear the choo choo on a regular basis, it would be a dream to drive one!

Any info would be great!
 
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tiptoptaff

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Hi,

Does anyone know how you can get to drive steam trains? I'll be fully qualified as a depot driver this year and then hopefully passenger trains in 2-3 years time.

I'm assuming, maybe wrongly, that there's a separate training course for steam trains?

There's the Great Central Railway local to me and we hear the choo choo on a regular basis, it would be a dream to drive one!

Any info would be great!

Mainline steam is operated by a small number of companies - DBS, a FOC, train their own staff to fire/drive steam. WCRC employ part time drivers with previous experience and I'm not sure what or how Loco Services Ltd plan to do it.

To drive steam there is an easy way - pay for an experience course, many hertiage railways do it. Or volunteer at one, but you will work from the bottom and it can/will take around 10years of dedicated volunteering to achieve promotion to a driving grade.
 

tiptoptaff

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Mainline driving experience in terms of Depot Driving or freight/pax diesel driving will have no bearing on any potential progression on a heritage line. The safety cases and rule books are very different (albeit many heritage railway rulebooks are derived from the RSSB one)
 

Llanigraham

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Volunteer on a local steam railway, become a cleaner, then a fireman, and eventually a driver.
But be prepared for a long haul.
 

Johncleesefan

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As has been said the best thing would be to contact your local preserved line and ask them, be weary though. Have an incident in your hobby could just end your day job too
 

tiptoptaff

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As has been said the best thing would be to contact your local preserved line and ask them, be weary though. Have an incident in your hobby could just end your day job too

Although a failure in section on the hobby jobby helped my real life jobby :lol::lol:
 

EastMidsMatt

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Tiptoptaff mentioned an experience course? If it's going to take 10 years of volunteering I will probably pass.
 

Ben.A.98

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There isn't a more direct route.

Its all about gaining respect for the grade, also gaining experience and knowledge before you are given your chance on the handle. It also proves your dedication to the railway, it can cost a lot in time and money for a heritage line to train up a driver.
 

Llanigraham

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Not sure I'd go for the cleaning etc. As a qualified driver I'd choose a more direct route.

Tiptoptaff mentioned an experience course? If it's going to take 10 years of volunteering I will probably pass.

I'm sorry to tell you, but I think you are being very hopeful if you think that because you are a driver on the "big railway" you will get to drive a steam train on a preserved line automatically. I know from experience that you will follow the standard route up the ladder, as I suggested earlier, no matter what. Even people moving from one preserved line to another often have to "prove" themselves first. Plus you will have to learn that lines Rule Book and be examined on it.
And going on a "experience course" counts for nothing, and actually you probably woudn't pass.

I volunteer on a preserved line, and until very recently was a signaller for Network Rail, but if I want to be a Controller on our line I still am required to go through the gambit of the full training before I am examined and "Passed Fit".
 

tiptoptaff

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HA! I am sorry but if you think being driver on the Big Railway (and confined to a depot at that) is going to put you at the top of the driving tree, and you aren't prepared to do the cleaning and put the years of hard graft in helping to maintain and understand the locomotives and their nuances, aren't become part of a team who give up our time for absolutely nothing other than good banter, free tea, occasional cake and good mates for a few drinks after the job is done, then frankly, it will not be for you. You have to want to be there for the love of the locomotives and the railway, to want to see them maintained and the railway succeed, not to just drive a steam locomotive because you think it's the same as a unit.

Cleaner. Passed Cleaner. Fireman. Passed Fireman. Driver

I am here ^ And that represents 3 and a half years to attain, I've now being doing it a year, and I'm at least another year away from being considering for a promotion to full grade. Why? Because you need to prove you have solid experience and capability before you're promoted to a grade where you can be allowed to drive by a full grade Driver (whom are Driver Instructors) and because as a Fireman, you are a Firing Instructor. Can't skip the steps where you'd be training people if you can't do it yourself!!

It was the GWR, SR, LMS and LNER way. It was the BR way. It is still our way. It works, and rewards those who have put the time and effort in over a number of years, who have shown their dedication and have proved their worth and aptitude for steam driving. You have to do it all first, to understand what is required of you as a driver.

Please, don't join a heritage line with your attitude. By all means, pay the few hundred quid and have a day playing trains. But do not turn up to volunteer if your attitude is that you're a Big Railway (depot, with no handling experience) driver and you're above the cleaning or firing grades as a result, because trust me, you will NOT get anywhere near the footplate, in any capacity.
 

EastMidsMatt

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Maybe I have not come across as I intended judging by the inflated responses from a couple of people.
When I said I'll pass I meant it wasn't for me.
I only asked the original question to gain some advice on a perfectly reasonable query. It always amazes me on these forums the level offence people take to inexperienced and naive statements made by those who are just seeking some advice.
Thanks for the constructive feedback and to those that feel I have an attitude maybe you're right or maybe you're a tad sensitive.
 

tiptoptaff

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Not sensitive mate, you can't make a boil in the bag steam driver. If you're not prepared to do the work it says more about your attitude than my sensitivity.
 

Andy-mc

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People do enjoy shooting someone down when they have high expectations and believe they have something over others

But simple answer to your question is
- one off Drive of a steam train: buy an experience day (very expensive)
- More frequent driving: volunteer at a heritage line and work your way up (time consuming)
 

ComUtoR

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you can't make a boil in the bag steam driver.

I'm a 'boil in the bag' Driver. That was our nick names when I started. That aside....

Why can't you go direct to the footplate ? What are the reason(s) why you need to go through cleaner/fireman ? Is it because they are keeping to tradition or using it as a method to control the enthusiasts and prevent the gold rush to Driver and not other grades ?

I'm certainly interested why someone may have years of experience driving would seemingly be penalized for their experience, rather than celebrated. Is there a reason why experience doesn't count ?

Cheers in advance.
 

221129

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I'm a 'boil in the bag' Driver. That was our nick names when I started. That aside....

Why can't you go direct to the footplate ? What are the reason(s) why you need to go through cleaner/fireman ? Is it because they are keeping to tradition or using it as a method to control the enthusiasts and prevent the gold rush to Driver and not other grades ?

I'm certainly interested why someone may have years of experience driving would seemingly be penalized for their experience, rather than celebrated. Is there a reason why experience doesn't count ?

Cheers in advance.
Probably a bit of both but more the latter I would think.
 

EastMidsMatt

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Not sensitive mate, you can't make a boil in the bag steam driver. If you're not prepared to do the work it says more about your attitude than my sensitivity.
I knew nothing about the topic hence why I asked the original question. The answers given have informed and educated me and if I've decided I'm not prepared to do the work involved all it means is that steam driving is not for me. Well done to those who have put in the hours and kudos to you for your dedication and commitment. I fail to see why my personal choice upsets you enough to judge me as having an attitude. But hey ho, each to their own.
 

tiptoptaff

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"I have to work for something, so I'm not going to do it"

It says a lot about your attitude whether you realise it or not.
 

EastMidsMatt

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"I have to work for something, so I'm not going to do it"

It says a lot about your attitude whether you realise it or not.
I beg to differ.

Over 25 years in karate gaining a black belt, representing my country and winning a medal at the European championships.

Ten years in the NHS as a physio working with end of life patients with no pay rise for the last 7 years.

Being married for 12 years!

Going through the recruitment process to get a job as a depot driver.

Just some of the experiences I have been through that demonstrate almost as much commitment as your refusal, tiptoptit, to let this go!
 

Tomnick

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Why can't you go direct to the footplate ? What are the reason(s) why you need to go through cleaner/fireman ? Is it because they are keeping to tradition or using it as a method to control the enthusiasts and prevent the gold rush to Driver and not other grades ?
I'd suggest that it's because a steam driver is ultimately responsible for a machine containing a lot of steam at very high pressure and a substantial and very hot fire which can go very badly wrong very quickly if not handled properly. I'm sure that it wouldn't take long to train a qualified driver from elsewhere to be able to drive it, but understanding the boiler management side of things really needs the progression and practical experience through cleaner*, passed cleaner, fireman etc., although the fireman is nominally in charge of that aspect, it makes sense to ensure that the driver knows exactly what's happening too - if nothing else, it relies on teamwork to keep it going safely.

* - not the sort of cleaner who goes around the station sweeping platforms and unblocking toilets!
 

tiptoptaff

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I'm a 'boil in the bag' Driver. That was our nick names when I started. That aside....

Why can't you go direct to the footplate ? What are the reason(s) why you need to go through cleaner/fireman ? Is it because they are keeping to tradition or using it as a method to control the enthusiasts and prevent the gold rush to Driver and not other grades ?

I'm certainly interested why someone may have years of experience driving would seemingly be penalized for their experience, rather than celebrated. Is there a reason why experience doesn't count ?

Cheers in advance.
I meant no offence by the term, I agree that it's a good and efficient way to train full time professional drivers who are being paid to be there, and if they leave, can be replaced relatively easily. All being equal, I'll be the same in a matter of months. But that's not what we're talking about here.

It's primarily to prevent the gold rush to driver, such as the likes of MattVick. (well done for being committed and continuing to the do the jobs you were paid for, do you want a medal?)

Also, the experience required to drive steam can't be learnt in a matter of weeks. They are responsible for not only themselves but the fireman as well. The traction knowledge requirement is greater also. It also shows you're committed to it. Getting covered in oil and crap is not for everyone at 0600 on a cold and rainy winter morning. If you could just go straight to the footplate top grades, you couple get to a morning like that and decide it's not for you and never been seen again, leaving a driving vacancy. This way, by the time you are a driver you have been there and done it enough times that if you didn't want to, you wouldn't still be there. It keeps the turnover down.

You have to be a fireman first, as to be assessed as competent to drive, you must show you are competent to fire, as you are in charge of the loco and what the fireman is doing is down to you. You need to know when they're on top of it and when they're not, and know how to drive accordingly.

As for your driving experience, they are potentially not comparable. For example, and with no disrespect or disservice to you as a driver or, your experience may count for very little when driving a steam loco. You drive modern EMUs with state of the art braking systems - a steam locomotive worked off a vacuum brake on 8 coaches will handle very differently. As it will in the wet, under leaf fall. All of that can be learnt, but you learn it by doing, as you do when you learn to drive on the mainline. But you learn to do that 5 days a week full time, this you do in your spare time. So that means it takes longer anyway. Next, we use semaphore signalling and Electric Train Token, now, can't specifically speak for the routes you sign, but I know many mainline drivers who've never seen a semaphore signal or have used a single line token.

You have transferable skills. I have no doubt you would have little trouble driving one of our DMUs straight away. And the driving experience will help when learning the road and the rule book and most of that you would know already or pick up and understand quicker than someone who's not in the driving grade. But you still have to prove you are there for the long haul.

Heritage railways would fold if they had to sustain a lot of short term "good time charlies" who only want to drive a steam loco on a sunny Saturday in July. That's why they run paid driver experience days. In my time on the footplate I have spent more time not on the footplate, in the shed working with the staff and other volunteers to keep the engines in good running order, various shunts and bits of miscellaneous work, than I have firing.

After all, this a hobby, and everyone there has the same goal. To become a driver. If you're not prepared to do the work behind the scenes, why should you get the chance ahead of someone who has spent years doing just that?
 

tiptoptaff

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And that's not to say it's mainline drivers who are "penalised" specifically. If a Driver at railway A moves house and now joins Railway B, which is closer to them, they would be dropped grades to prove to the new railway both that they are dedicated to it, and to demonstrate their knowledge and experience. The usual is one full grade below, so if at railway A you were a driver, at Railway B, after some rules/route training and assessments you would be made a fireman.
 
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"I have to work for something, so I'm not going to do it"

It says a lot about your attitude whether you realise it or not.

Ah, lovely to hear such a welcoming voice of the heritage railways, I do hope you're not in charge of recruiting fresh volunteers or all "heritage railways would fold" to quote yourself.

I think tiptoptaff is struggling to differentiate between managing someone's expectations and behaving like a twit on a forum.

I once drove a steam train on an experience day on the mid-hants, it was wicked, but as i work on the railways 5 days a week, and i prefer diesels anyway, i decided not to volunteer to work my way up to driver? Does that mean i have attitude too?

Crack on mattvick, there's plenty of heritage lines round your way, a couple of small ones who'd really welcome even a once a month appearance.
 

tiptoptaff

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Ah, lovely to hear such a welcoming voice of the heritage railways, I do hope you're not in charge of recruiting fresh volunteers or all "heritage railways would fold" to quote yourself.

I think tiptoptaff is struggling to differentiate between managing someone's expectations and behaving like a twit on a forum.

I once drove a steam train on an experience day on the mid-hants, it was wicked, but as i work on the railways 5 days a week, and i prefer diesels anyway, i decided not to volunteer to work my way up to driver? Does that mean i have attitude too?

Crack on mattvick, there's plenty of heritage lines round your way, a couple of small ones who'd really welcome even a once a month appearance.

I'm well aware of the difference, but it was the response of I won't bother if I've got to work my way up I made my judgement on.
 

tiptoptaff

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And I quote "If it's going to take 10years of volunteering I'll probably pass"

Can't do what he wants straight away, isn't going to bother. That is the attitude problem.
 

Gemz91

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What is the role of a cleaner in steam trains? I assumed it would be cleaning the waiting rooms and platforms, but I gather I am wrong?
 

Bromley boy

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"I have to work for something, so I'm not going to do it"

It says a lot about your attitude whether you realise it or not.

I don't think he's displayed an attitude at all, just asked some perfectly reasonable questions. You appear to have jumped down his throat for no reason. Surely you should be doing what you can to encourage a potential new volunteer?

Some of the ridiculously harsh comments on this thread show why certain preserved lines struggle to recruit volunteers prepared to stick around doing grunt work for years, and perhaps why some steam enthusiasts/volunteers have a bad reputation even amongst the enthusiast/heritage community.

Ah, lovely to hear such a welcoming voice of the heritage railways, I do hope you're not in charge of recruiting fresh volunteers or all "heritage railways would fold" to quote yourself.

Indeed.
 

tiptoptaff

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What is the role of a cleaner in steam trains? I assumed it would be cleaning the waiting rooms and platforms, but I gather I am wrong?

The long title is Locomotive Cleaner, and it's fairly literal. You are there to clean the locomotives, which invariably means getting covered in various types of oil, paraffin, grease, crud etc. Also cleaning the ash fromthe smoke box and ashpan (which, depending on design, invariably means you're underneath prodding at it and raking it out, usually with fire burning on the grate above)

As a cleaner I ended up doing various other bits but you're primarily there to clean locos and help with their maintenance. As it's the first rung on the footplate ladder the thinking behind it was as you worked around the locos with more experienced people, other cleaners, trainees, fireman, drivers, fitters etc you would learn what each bit is, what it does and how it all works together.
 
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