Steam Trains!

[Gemz91]

The long title is Locomotive Cleaner, and it's fairly literal. You are there to clean the locomotives, which invariably means getting covered in various types of oil, paraffin, grease, crud etc. Also cleaning the ash fromthe smoke box and ashpan (which, depending on design, invariably means you're underneath prodding at it and raking it out, usually with fire burning on the grate above)

As a cleaner I ended up doing various other bits but you're primarily there to clean locos and help with their maintenance. As it's the first rung on the footplate ladder the thinking behind it was as you worked around the locos with more experienced people, other cleaners, trainees, fireman, drivers, fitters etc you would learn what each bit is, what it does and how it all works together.

Cheers for the quick reply.

 

[tiptoptaff]

I agree with all the comments about welcoming staff who are prepared to stick around and do the grunt work, as that is what is vital to heritage railways' collective survival. But the point is MattVick isn't prepared to do that and as he's a depot driver wants a more direct route to driving than doing the hard work. It doesn't work like that and when told so politely and informatively by several people including myself at the start of this thread declared he wasn't going to do it if it was going to take him the time required of everyone.

If you are prepared to do the hard work and filthy graft required I will be the first to welcome you. If you're not and you just want to play with a steam engine, book a course and pay for it, becuase that's not what we need from a volunteer.

 

[Urobach]

So simply the answer being if you want to drive steam on the heritage side, it's a case of working your way up. Presumably though, having passed the various psychometric tests, interviews, then the rules course neccesary to drive on the national rail network and putting some clean years in, driving steam trains for, say, WCRC, is open to him? Pending traction training and most likely following a stint of x amount of time being a fireman (and presumably then a new to the company driver would hardly be top of the list there)?

Whether you regularly work with semaphore signalling or not is irrelevant as you're trained to be able to drive to them anyway and token working comes as part of route knowledge where neccesary anyway. Additionally, as I drive for the company MattVick is taking employment at, when he progresses to mainline driving he will be driving to Semaphores at some point and surely if he wants a more direct route to driving he wouldn't be taking a depot driver role when other companies can take you straight to the mainline position?!

 

[dakta]

I don't know how big an issue it may be in the preserved railway world but when it comes to climbing the ranks through traditional means surely it can get a bit political and just as much about 'if the face fits'?

Playing devils advocate I know, and its a question rather than comment but plenty of places in a variety of societies and subjects that will let you give years of service if you like but if you become part of the furniture thats where it can end.

FWIW I'm for the 'work your way up' approach I just get the feeling your mileage may vary.

 

[ComUtoR]

Cheers for the reply. I am still at odd that it could potentially take 10yrs to become a steam train Driver. It feels artificially inflated.

If each stage is a prerequisite then I can understand. So just like mainline driving. You need to go through a specific process ? Are there certifications along the way and a required standard etc ? Would someone need to go through the OPC first to get a mainline steam license ?

Is there a body that looks after the standards and requirements for Heritage railway ?

Cheers in advance again.

 

[tiptoptaff]

So simply the answer being if you want to drive steam on the heritage side, it's a case of working your way up. Presumably though, having passed the various psychometric tests, interviews, then the rules course neccesary to drive on the national rail network and putting some clean years in, driving steam trains for, say, WCRC, is open to him? Pending traction training and most likely following a stint of x amount of time being a fireman (and presumably then a new to the company driver would hardly be top of the list there)?

Whether you regularly work with semaphore signalling or not is irrelevant as you're trained to be able to drive to them anyway and token working comes as part of route knowledge where neccesary anyway. Additionally, as I drive for the company MattVick is taking employment at, when he progresses to mainline driving he will be driving to Semaphores at some point and surely if he wants a more direct route to driving he wouldn't be taking a depot driver role when other companies can take you straight to the mainline position?!

His comment about wanting a more direct route was aimed at steam driving on a heritage line. WCRC may be an option, but you still need to be a fireman first as you say. That still takes work, effort and dedication (many if not all WCRC fireman are actually volunteers attached to a specific loco's support crew, where you would have to do all the same stuff as a cleaner on a heritage railway, just without the same rewards of relatively quick progression to firing) and it is the hard work and dedicated effort over a period of time I have interpreted him to not want to do.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Cheers for the reply. I am still at odd that it could potentially take 10yrs to become a steam train Driver. It feels artificially inflated.

If each stage is a prerequisite then I can understand. So just like mainline driving. You need to go through a specific process ? Are there certifications along the way and a required standard etc ? Would someone need to go through the OPC first to get a mainline steam license ?

Is there a body that looks after the standards and requirements for Heritage railway ?

Cheers in advance again.

It can take that long simply becuase we're not doing 250+ turns a year any more, and the time needed to attain the skill level and experience level required is just that much longer. Imagine how long it would have taken you to pass out if you were only doing say, on average, 23 turns a year? (last year I did 30ish, lowest number to remain competent is 16, some of my friends who work part time or are retired got to up to 60 or 80)

To be a mainline driver, yes you would need to have passed OPC as you would need to gain your mainline license as you would for any other traction - for example ALL DB Firemen and Drivers are actually full-time freight crews who do it additionally. WCRC drivers are semi-retired moonlighters who would have had to pass the standard for mainline driving at the time they began their careers.

Heritage Railways are still managed in terms of safety cases by the ORR, as although not mainline, we are still passenger carrying railways. However, we run under Light Rail Orders (or whatever it is that's now replaced them) so standards for door locking, lineside access etc are reduced and our speed is restricted to 25mph. Our rulebook, SMS and competency management has to be agreed and okayed by the ORR before it can be implemented. So the standards we're assessed too aren't policed directly by the ORR, but they will have agreed with the Railway's higher management the standards we're assessed to are sufficient.

 

[tiptoptaff]

I don't know how big an issue it may be in the preserved railway world but when it comes to climbing the ranks through traditional means surely it can get a bit political and just as much about 'if the face fits'?

Playing devils advocate I know, and its a question rather than comment but plenty of places in a variety of societies and subjects that will let you give years of service if you like but if you become part of the furniture thats where it can end.

FWIW I'm for the 'work your way up' approach I just get the feeling your mileage may vary.

There are places where that happens. At our place, the progression is monitored by the number of turns you do. To get a trip on the footplate as a cleaner, you must do X cleaning turns. Whether your face "fits" or not, if you've done that number, you're entitled to a ride out and it's rostered for you on the dates you've said you're available (subject to a suitable crew being available - must be Full grade Fireman to take a trainee fireman/cleaner, although experienced Passed Cleaners due for exam for their promotion to grade can and do take junior cleaners on their first trips where the firing training isn't quite so vital)

In terms of promotions then, we have report cards filled out at the end of each turn. Trainee is scored 1-5 on various aspects and once they have attained all 5s on a number of consecutive turns they are put forward for exam. They've done their best to remove the politics from it and I feel it works quite well. Certainly gave me a good indication of where I was when I was training.

 

[ComUtoR]

Thanks, that is a little more enlightening.

 

[tiptoptaff]

As for what Loco Services will do/have done for their own drivers I don't know. I've heard that this year they'll be hiring in. Going forward I'd imagine they'll employ already qualified drivers and teach them the routes and steam traction.

 

[Bromley boy]

But the point is MattVick isn't prepared to do that and as he's a depot driver wants a more direct route to driving than doing the hard work.

He was simply asking if a direct route was possible, fair question as someone who doesn't realise what’s involved. I never imagined it would take 10 years to pass out as a preserved Loco driver until I spoke to someone who had done it. As someone who is clearly knowledgeable you are quite right to point that out to him, but there’s a way of saying things!

As for his not wanting to volunteer for 10 years, also fair enough. It’s not for everyone. Maybe you could have mentioned part time volunteering, even if it doesn’t lead to driving?

Was there any need for insulting/sarcastic replies, like:

HA! I am sorry but if you think being driver on the Big Railway (and confined to a depot at that) is going to put you at the top of the driving tree,

well done for being committed and continuing to the do the jobs you were paid for, do you want a medal?)

I can pretty much guarantee he’ll never touch any kind of railway volunteering with a 10 foot barge pole, after that!

 

[tiptoptaff]

Why would I have mentioned part time volunteering not leading to driving, when he specifically asked about driving? It would have bore no relevance to the questions asked.

 

[Llanigraham]

Cheers for the reply. I am still at odd that it could potentially take 10yrs to become a steam train Driver. It feels artificially inflated.

If each stage is a prerequisite then I can understand. So just like mainline driving. You need to go through a specific process ? Are there certifications along the way and a required standard etc ? Would someone need to go through the OPC first to get a mainline steam license ?

Is there a body that looks after the standards and requirements for Heritage railway ?

Cheers in advance again.

I can only respond about the local lines to me, and would say that 10 years is a bit long, but from my own experience of one of the narrow gauge lines I was told that it would take at least 5 years to become a full passenger driver, and that did mean starting as a loco cleaner and being expected to be able to attend regularly and not just once a month. Remember that training will have to fit in both with line and people availablity, and that we are dealing with volunteers.

I know of no national certification, and on the 4 lines I know of, all have different training methods and different standards. You might be lucky to get an internal certificate, but all I got when I passed-out on our battery loco was an extra line on my Working Members Card.

The ORR oversees all railways, so they fix a minimum for everyone.

 

[Bromley boy]

Why would I have mentioned part time volunteering not leading to driving, when he specifically asked about driving? It would have bore no relevance to the questions asked.

To suggest a way to get involved he may not have considered before, as he is someone who clearly has some interest/enthusiasm.

That might have been better than giving him the impression the scene is full of angry cranks!

 

[dakta]

There are places where that happens. At our place, the progression is monitored by the number of turns you do. To get a trip on the footplate as a cleaner, you must do X cleaning turns. Whether your face "fits" or not, if you've done that number, you're entitled to a ride out and it's rostered for you on the dates you've said you're available (subject to a suitable crew being available - must be Full grade Fireman to take a trainee fireman/cleaner, although experienced Passed Cleaners due for exam for their promotion to grade can and do take junior cleaners on their first trips where the firing training isn't quite so vital)

In terms of promotions then, we have report cards filled out at the end of each turn. Trainee is scored 1-5 on various aspects and once they have attained all 5s on a number of consecutive turns they are put forward for exam. They've done their best to remove the politics from it and I feel it works quite well. Certainly gave me a good indication of where I was when I was training.

Thanks for that - it does sound like a good system to be honest. The value of a bit of feedback to the people working their way up is not to be underestimated IMO

 

[EastMidsMatt]

So, to conclude.

It turns out that to drive steam trains I would need to be willing to volunteer for a lengthy period of time and prove myself over a number of years. Knowing this I have decided that I cannot commit to being a steam train driver. I'm really sorry to tiptoptaff for this, I know you'll be devastated.

Thanks to all of you that have contributed to the thread and enlightened me on a subject I knew nothing about.

It's a shame the focus is on my attitude, having decided it's not for me, and not on the charming, magical and historic wonderment of the steam train!

 

[Raul_Duke]

I'm a 'boil in the bag' Driver. That was our nick names when I started. That aside....

Why can't you go direct to the footplate ? What are the reason(s) why you need to go through cleaner/fireman ? Is it because they are keeping to tradition or using it as a method to control the enthusiasts and prevent the gold rush to Driver and not other grades ?

I'm certainly interested why someone may have years of experience driving would seemingly be penalized for their experience, rather than celebrated. Is there a reason why experience doesn't count ?

Cheers in advance.

It won’t be much longer before there’s no ‘proper’ drivers left after they’ve taken their BRASS ect, and the railway will immediately fall apart the minute the last one leaves.

Except for the heritage railways trundling a steam Loco up and down at 25mph and keeping the lofty standards up of course........

 

[Llanigraham]

Whether we like it or not, I'm afraid that the OP's idea is not unknown.

I know we have had people turn up and think that because they have done a "Driving Course" on another line they will automatically become a driver straight away. They seem to forget that on their "Course" there was a fully qualified instructor there watching all the gauges and everything else, and was telling them what to do. Often they had to do very little thinking for themselves. And that hasn't taken into account the idiosyncracies of different locos on different lines.

As a "big railway" signaller I've been to preserved lines and worked Boxes, but always under supervision, and I would never expect to be left alone to work it myself. In fact if offered I would automatically refuse it!

 

[Tomnick]

I suspect that it's the OP's apparent expectation of "a more direct route" into the steam driving grade that's caused a bit of a stir amongst the heritage railway folk on here, and I suspect that's because most of the heritage railway folk on here have had previous bad experiences with people coming with 'big railway' experience and a sense of entitlement to waltz straight into their chosen role, and then either ignore the training that they're given (because they know better) or just fail to take the job seriously when they're let out on their own because they see it as a bit of a plaything away from the day job. I say that as someone who's also 'big railway' and who works alongside plenty of others with a deep interest in the heritage work who happily co-exist in both worlds. I think I can also safely say that some of the biggest problems we've had (not in the driving grade) with trainees have been those with that sort of attitude, though.

I'm sure that wasn't Matt's intention, and I'm sure that the above comments wouldn't apply to him, but I can understand why others have reacted the way they have. If he just wants to drive a steam loco, the GCR's driver experience courses are hard to beat (locally, at least), but if he wants to offer his services with a long-term commitment or otherwise, he'll be very welcome to do so - just not straight into the top of the driving grade!