First Group: General Discussion

[dgl]

Just thoughts I'd add that the ex-Greenline deckers done up for the X53 are looking good from the pictures I've seen, nice to see a marginal but important route (esp. where tourism is concerned) getting a newer fleet and hopefully taking the strain of the 04' scanias that must have really high mileage by now.
See @marcreddy on twitter for pictures of the temporary livery,
https://twitter.com/marcreddy/status/959468440565280775

 

[F Great Eastern]

Just thoughts I'd add that the ex-Greenline deckers done up for the X53 are looking good from the pictures I've seen, nice to see a marginal but important route (esp. where tourism is concerned) getting a newer fleet and hopefully taking the strain of the 04' scanias that must have really high mileage by now.
See @marcreddy on twitter for pictures of the temporary livery,
https://twitter.com/marcreddy/status/959468440565280775

Marc Reddy is probably one of the best busmen that First have got.

I initially had problems with those 63 plate vehicles not going to Essex, but seeing them used on such a route means you can't grumble really - it's a premium route, like the X30 and deserves premium vehicles, so splitting them this way seems a fair idea.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Dervla McKay, currently Operations director of First Hampshire & Dorset reporting into Marc Reddy, has been appointed as the new Managing Director of Aircoach, taking over in May from Allen Parker who is leaving for a C level role in Bus Eireann after being at Aircoach as MD since 2006.

It seems that the route from Hampshire & Dorset to Aircoach is a common one and she'll be the second MD appointed from there - Marc Reddy himself was a deputy MD and in an operations role at Hampshire & Dorset before a stint at Aircoach himself as MD from 2005-2006!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

19001/4/5/7/8/9/11/13/18/20/23/27 all reported gone for scrap but that was a couple of weeks ago. No doubt someone in W Yorks would have better knowledge.

The last one at Bradford got taken away at the start of the week. Sorry don't know which.

Not certain if the one stored at Yeovil is still there, or what happened to the ones that were on Unibus services in Swansea?

 

[Non Multi]

Marc Reddy is probably one of the best busmen that First have got.

That doesn't bode well for the bus operations then...

Though I'll give him credit in making very difficult decisions when other managers would simply 'kick the can down the road'.

 

[F Great Eastern]

You have to take into account what resources he has available to him when assessing his performance.

 

[Bristol LH]

Not certain if the one stored at Yeovil is still there, or what happened to the ones that were on Unibus services in Swansea?

All 10 (19000/29/30/2-8) remain in storage with First Cymru - seven at Llanelli, two at Maesteg and one at Swansea Ravenhill depot.

 

[Whiteway215]

Not certain if the one stored at Yeovil is still there, or what happened to the ones that were on Unibus services in Swansea?

According to FHD Enthusiasts Forum 19010 was still at Yeovil yesterday.

 

[CD]

According to FHD Enthusiasts Forum 19010 was still at Yeovil yesterday.

Correct its been in Yeovil gathering dust inside the fueller since July. Maybe FSW have forgotten about it?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Correct its been in Yeovil gathering dust inside the fueller since July. Maybe FSW have forgotten about it?

Heritage fleet vehicle?? (only kidding)

That doesn't bode well for the bus operations then...

Though I'll give him credit in making very difficult decisions when other managers would simply 'kick the can down the road'.

I'll agree with FGE - mistakes do get made (who's perfect on this board?) but Marc Reddy is having to navigate in straitened times in a firm that has long standing issues.

 

[Robertj21a]

Heritage fleet vehicle?? (only kidding)



I'll agree with FGE - mistakes do get made (who's perfect on this board?) but Marc Reddy is having to navigate in straitened times in a firm that has long standing issues.

Indeed. Apart from Marc Reddy, there have been 3-4 other senior people brought in by First in recent years and their expertise appears to be showing the odd glimmer of hope. The problem for First, as usual, is the sheer scale of the supertanker that it was trying to steer back on course, quite apart from the various woes affecting all bus operators in recent times.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Of course the industry has a lot of issues right now, but the last few years of the Lockhead regime and also the acquisitions of the few years prior to that really put First in a difficult position.

Even when an opportunity presents itself they no longer have the resources to take it in a lot of cases - there's some businesses that are still quite high profit making but their management teams are seeing none of that money to spend on expanding the business because the funds are needed to prop up the poorly performing ones.

 

[winston270twm]

Of course the industry has a lot of issues right now, but the last few years of the Lockhead regime and also the acquisitions of the few years prior to that really put First in a difficult position.

Even when an opportunity presents itself they no longer have the resources to take it in a lot of cases - there's some businesses that are still quite high profit making but their management teams are seeing none of that money to spend on expanding the business because the funds are needed to prop up the poorly performing ones.

Totally agree, it's been 5 years this May since the rights issue, it's clear that there strategy isn't working. I'm surprised all their main shareholders are being so patient.... First are struggling for any room to manoeuvre with, their debt / reduced profits are preventing the better performing ops from expanding. Whilst it's commendable that First are investing in 41 new buses for Kernow this year, they will never generate the revenue / growth that they could putting those in to densely populated urban areas FWY / Bristol / Glasgow or even Manchester & Sheffield etc

I think they should consider ditching UK Rail until terms/returns are more favourable, bidding costs are high, profit margins are low, quite why First as considering competing on the East Coast Main Line is suicide. Hopefully, they'll pull the plug on that scheme, given the Virgin East Coast franchise is not even living up to expectations & Stagecoach are taking a hit on it.

 

[F Great Eastern]

This is a major problem for First as a whole- it seems now the well performing businesses are not being allowed to retain anything like an appropriate amount of profit in order to grow their businesses and sustain their performance levels because their profit is being taken away and reallocated to the areas that are heavily loss making and are like a leech on their resources and the end game will be that a better resourced operator will start to chip away at the well performing areas as well.

Totally agree, it's been 5 years this May since the rights issue, it's clear that there strategy isn't working. I'm surprised all their main shareholders are being so patient.... First are struggling for any room to manoeuvre with, their debt / reduced profits are preventing the better performing ops from expanding. Whilst it's commendable that First are investing in 41 new buses for Kernow this year, they will never generate the revenue / growth that they could putting those in to densely populated urban areas FWY / Bristol / Glasgow or even Manchester & Sheffield etc

I think they should consider ditching UK Rail until terms/returns are more favourable, bidding costs are high, profit margins are low, quite why First as considering competing on the East Coast Main Line is suicide. Hopefully, they'll pull the plug on that scheme, given the Virgin East Coast franchise is not even living up to expectations & Stagecoach are taking a hit on it.

Dublin is a perfect example of a missed opportunity.

They invested in Aircoach in 2003 with a view to being well placed for the opening of the urban bus and state dominated market to private operators, this was put back many times, and has only just happened but in the last few years they launched two highly successful commercial routes which meant in 2015 they made over €3m profit and in 2016 that grew to over €8m (followed by over €6m this year)

The last couple of years the market has started to be opened and there were tenders out and competitions to be won and First should have been by far the best placed of any private company, as the only major UK group present in Ireland and already having infrastructure in place. They invested in Aircoach 15 years ago waiting for this chance.

However the problem is that First walked away from the contests because of the requirement to build their own depot and the upfront costs that would involve that they could not bear and Go-Ahead, with no kind of infrastructure whatsoever in the country, had the finances to play the long game and invest in something that they'd have to wait for years to see the benefit of.

Since then we've seen the MD of Aircoach walk out to go to Bus Eireann - you can hardly be surprised though, he's generated over €17m profit over the past three years and all of that money has been paid as a dividend to the core UK business in order to prop up failing companies - it's hardly a surprise he left when they're not seeing the fruit of their labours.

 

[Robertj21a]

This is a major problem for First as a whole- it seems now the well performing businesses are not being allowed to retain anything like an appropriate amount of profit in order to grow their businesses and sustain their performance levels because their profit is being taken away and reallocated to the areas that are heavily loss making and are like a leech on their resources and the end game will be that a better resourced operator will start to chip away at the well performing areas as well.


Dublin is a perfect example of a missed opportunity.

They invested in Aircoach in 2003 with a view to being well placed for the opening of the urban bus and state dominated market to private operators, this was put back many times, and has only just happened but in the last few years they launched two highly successful commercial routes which meant in 2015 they made over €3m profit and in 2016 that grew to over €8m (followed by over €6m this year)

The last couple of years the market has started to be opened and there were tenders out and competitions to be won and First should have been by far the best placed of any private company, as the only major UK group present in Ireland and already having infrastructure in place. They invested in Aircoach 15 years ago waiting for this chance.

However the problem is that First walked away from the contests because of the requirement to build their own depot and the upfront costs that would involve that they could not bear and Go-Ahead, with no kind of infrastructure whatsoever in the country, had the finances to play the long game and invest in something that they'd have to wait for years to see the benefit of.

Since then we've seen the MD of Aircoach walk out to go to Bus Eireann - you can hardly be surprised though, he's generated over €17m profit over the past three years and all of that money has been paid as a dividend to the core UK business in order to prop up failing companies - it's hardly a surprise he left when they're not seeing the fruit of their labours.

In the UK it's some of the biggest First Bus operations that are losing the most, Manchester and South Yorkshire in particular. These really need to be got rid of, but they need a willing buyer. The pension deficit that showed up in the Accounts this year was also a massive blow and all this is on top of their debts (and difficult trading conditions for everyone).

 

[F Great Eastern]

I think that some of the urban operations in the bigger cities in theory should be able to be turned around - however it might require some streamlining of services where they are uneconomical to focus on where they are commercially viable and more targeted and some difficult decisions that may be unpopular in some quarters but are essential to term some businesses around.

Now if that's not possible they have to look at what is worth selling - but honestly the more urban areas should in theory have more potential than the more rural areas where demand is lower so I wouldn't want to be selling up in most of the major cities without having a real good crack at extensively remodeling them, because they should really be better bus territory.

Then you have to add into the mix if some of these operations are suffering because of a lack of investment, but with investment they could possibly be turned around.

 

[Cesarcollie]

In the UK it's some of the biggest First Bus operations that are losing the most, Manchester and South Yorkshire in particular. These really need to be got rid of, but they need a willing buyer. The pension deficit that showed up in the Accounts this year was also a massive blow and all this is on top of their debts (and difficult trading conditions for everyone).

Yes. But with the threat of franchising in both these areas, the businesses are largely worthless, so First would likely have to take a huge write-off in selling.....

 

[overthewater]

Yes. But with the threat of franchising in both these areas, the businesses are largely worthless, so First would likely have to take a huge write-off in selling.....

Or it could win in both areas...

 

[Cesarcollie]

Or it could win in both areas...

Possibly - but my response was in reply to the suggestion that First should sell these areas. At the moment, they have no value (but lots of liabilities), and there is no point in investing either.

 

[winston270twm]

Possibly - but my response was in reply to the suggestion that First should sell these areas. At the moment, they have no value (but lots of liabilities), and there is no point in investing either.

At the minute, both subsidiaries are dragging UK Bus down, they should be far more profitable than they are especially Manchester. They can't simply sit back waiting for a decision on franchising to made, what if in the future TfGM decide to go down the quality partnership route instead & profits have deteriorated further? Stagecoach Manchester's fleets far more modern than First's, plus any new fleet they were to invest in now can always be re-deployed elsewhere.

I seriously think First should take some batches of the B9TL / Gemini's & E400 12 plates that are coming out of London, some of which are ex First London to improve the age profile of UK bus fleets. Even Lothian are taking a batch of Gemini's.

 

[overthewater]

Of course if the worse comes to the worse and First did lose, there could always transfer the newer buses away couldn't there?

 

[Anthony ross]

First could always sell Manchester and the Yorkshire fleets to Stagecoach

 

[overthewater]

First could always sell Manchester and the Yorkshire fleets to Stagecoach

Ok: whos going to be the first to slap this down?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

At the minute, both subsidiaries are dragging UK Bus down, they should be far more profitable than they are especially Manchester. They can't simply sit back waiting for a decision on franchising to made, what if in the future TfGM decide to go down the quality partnership route instead & profits have deteriorated further? Stagecoach Manchester's fleets far more modern than First's, plus any new fleet they were to invest in now can always be re-deployed elsewhere.

I seriously think First should take some batches of the B9TL / Gemini's & E400 12 plates that are coming out of London, some of which are ex First London to improve the age profile of UK bus fleets. Even Lothian are taking a batch of Gemini's.

Greater Manchester and South Yorkshire have obviously had to restructure, incurring the one offs for depot closures. However, they are operations that have had to contend with places like Rotherham, Oldham and Bolton where high street shopping is collapsing; the GM operations not helped by the extension of Metrolink either.

They could, of course, take ex London fleet but why do that? Yes, it fills the investment gap of 2009-11 but it also adds a load of depreciation. Instead, they've decided that they can lose 350-400 vehicles, 180 through new vehicles and the remainder through service reductions.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

First could always sell Manchester and the Yorkshire fleets to Stagecoach

Would never get through the CMA - they couldn't even flog Barnstaple let alone Manchester to Stagecoach!

Possibly - but my response was in reply to the suggestion that First should sell these areas. At the moment, they have no value (but lots of liabilities), and there is no point in investing either.

They have value on the balance sheet and yes, a lot of liabilities.

 

[winston270twm]

Greater Manchester and South Yorkshire have obviously had to restructure, incurring the one offs for depot closures. However, they are operations that have had to contend with places like Rotherham, Oldham and Bolton where high street shopping is collapsing; the GM operations not helped by the extension of Metrolink either.

They could, of course, take ex London fleet but why do that? Yes, it fills the investment gap of 2009-11 but it also adds a load of depreciation. Instead, they've decided that they can lose 350-400 vehicles, 180 through new vehicles and the remainder through service reductions.

Manchester & Sheffield have been consistently poor performers for First for a number of years, every other urban operator has had to contend with reductions in high street shopping / passenger demand. Stagecoach make considerably more profit in both Manchester & South Yorkshire than First, even though margins have been falling. What are they doing differently that First aren't?

Ex London B9TL / Gemini's & E400's will help modernize the double decker fleets at lower costs, will be more fuel efficient, should require less spending on maintenance etc. I'd have thought they will already be pretty heavily depreciated being dual door. It's all well and good keep trimming the network / cutting routes / cutting depot & fleet size, but you start in a downward spiral where the network becomes broken / gaps appear / fewer areas are covered & ultimately day ticket sales fall.

 

[overthewater]

Glasgow might be getting some of this:
https://cbwmagazine.com/scottish-government-announces-1-6m-bus-retrofit-programme/

Fund aims to help operators of older vehicles meet strict LEZ standards once they come into effect in Scotland’s four largest cities in 2020

Scottish Transport Minister, Humza Yousaf, has announced £1.6m to deliver the first phase of the Bus Emissions Abatement Retrofit Programme (BEAR) in this financial year.

Following on from the commitment to introduce Low Emission Zones (LEZs) into Scotland’s four biggest cities by 2020, the BEAR Programme is an open competition delivered through the Energy Saving Trust (EST), which aims to support bus operators with the financial costs associated with bus exhaust retrofit kit. The programme will work in tandem with accredited technology providers.

The technology helps reduce nitrogen dioxide emissions from older buses to achieve the Euro 6 emission standard. The Scottish Government said it will also be monitoring air quality performance from the buses, with up to £25,000 per bus being provided.

Humza Yousaf, Minister for Transport and the Islands, said: “I am delighted to announce this extra support to assist financially with the costs of reducing air pollution emissions from buses.

“There is no doubt that the bus sector is playing a vital role in improving our air quality. Many bus operators have already taken advantage of the previous seven rounds of the Scottish Green Bus Fund, where over £16m of funding has resulted in over 360 new low emission vehicles being brought into the fleet.

“For many operators, the right decision is also to invest in retrofit technology for their existing fleet. This will breathe new life into older buses, reduce harmful nitrogen dioxide emissions and help to progressively improve the quality of the air in our towns and cities.”

George Mair, Director for CPT Scotland, said: “The bus industry has invested over £250m in the last five years on greening Scotland’s bus fleet, improving the performance of what is already one of the most environmentally friendly modes of travel.

“The BEAR Programme fund, alongside the Green Bus Fund, are two schemes that facilitate further investment, but the real benefits of this investment are only realised when buses are given priority and freed from congestion. CPT will continue to work with the Scottish Government and local authorities to ensure that LEZs recognise the importance of bus and encourage sustainable and active travel.”

Matthew Eastwood, Head of Scottish Transport at EST, said: “We are delighted to be supporting the Scottish Government and bus operators by delivering the BEAR programme. Buses play a key role in keeping Scotland moving and are an important part of the solution to air quality in Scotland’s towns and cities.”

 

[Jordan Adam]

Parts of the archived website can still be viewed although it's very limited. But i'm not saying how because it don't want it to be removed!

Spoiler: Although have this screenshot :P

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Manchester & Sheffield have been consistently poor performers for First for a number of years, every other urban operator has had to contend with reductions in high street shopping / passenger demand. Stagecoach make considerably more profit in both Manchester & South Yorkshire than First, even though margins have been falling. What are they doing differently that First aren't?

Ex London B9TL / Gemini's & E400's will help modernize the double decker fleets at lower costs, will be more fuel efficient, should require less spending on maintenance etc. I'd have thought they will already be pretty heavily depreciated being dual door. It's all well and good keep trimming the network / cutting routes / cutting depot & fleet size, but you start in a downward spiral where the network becomes broken / gaps appear / fewer areas are covered & ultimately day ticket sales fall.

Hi Winston - as regards the FGM and FSY operations, there are some differences with Stagecoach. Both have suffered abstraction to a degree with Metrolink's expansion though FGM a bit more so. However, I'd venture that South Manchester is generally more affluent than the north and that has impacted on the core ridership; welfare cuts have hit the poorest and that is an issue for bus operators. FSY - I confess, I'm a lot less familiar with the area and why they should be so different; perhaps the benefits of the bus partnerships are yet to be evident?

The ex London stuff (especially deckers) are no bargain. They have all the usual issues of TfL spec and dual doors - that's why most firms (like Stagecoach) are leasing now. Given where First are in terms of having to stretch out their depreciation periods and running 18 year old deckers in Bristol, I don't see how they have the cash to buy or the strength to have considerably more depreciation/balance sheet weight.

First are taking the attention for the cuts but sadly, it's something that Stagecoach are also doing across the country and, as we're seeing with operators going pop regularly, it is a very tough place to be. As I've said before, First were the weakest of all the groups entering into this period and that's down to Moir's tenure IMO.

 

[overthewater]

Surprising thing is, if the whole company didn't go around the houses and just slashed and burn it might have been in a better position to weather this storm. It took six just to get to this stage, it needs to speed it up. Stagecoach dont wait about.