Could a Sleeper service run to Wick?

[BRX]

And go to a rural area in Switzerland - see what can actually be done with public transport in locations where you might write the idea off as bonkers. See the bus service provided to small valleys with winding single track roads and scattered farmhouses and compare with what you get in a highland glen with a fast A road and a larger population.

 

[InOban]

I regularly visit Inverness. It is the most car-dominated place I know.

 

[BRX]

I regularly visit Inverness. It is the most car-dominated place I know.

A look from above lays it all out - town planning based around cars. This is the most recently developed side of town - sprawling residential development, separated from the town centre by a swathe of roads and retail parks. Ironically it kind of follows the rail lines, but there's no attempt to make use of them by building stations.

 

[Northhighland]

I know the Highlands well; I grew up there, most of my family is there and I visit regularly. I'm very aware of the realities of the transport situation. I'm also aware that Skye is not on the 500 route; I was not suggesting that it was.

It's true that reaching every corner by public transport - at least public transport as we know it now - is not feasible. However, there is massive scope for public transport to be improved. Also, a large proportion of tourists actually come and visit a set of well-known attractions which are or could be connected viably with public transport.

Although the population is sparse overall, much is concentrated in certain areas, and many people make regular journeys by car which only "have to" be by car because of the paucity of alternatives. The easiest example to give is the catchment area of Inverness, where thousands of people commute by car doing the same journey every day. Other examples exist, on smaller scales, elsewhere. In many cases there *is* a bus service - maybe with one option into town, and one back, each day. There are plenty of people who are forced to make do with that, because they can't drive, whether because they are elderly or can't afford it or various other reasons. In these cases it is entirely realistic to improve the public transport service. Maybe some of the many households which own one car per adult could at least transition to a one car per household situation.

I watch what is going on in Inverness - constant construction of bypasses and expanding road infrastructre; horrible town planning based around the car and fringe supermarkets with vast carparks. It's not unique in Britain in this, but I'm afraid the area is absolutely ingrained in car culture. I know because of the horrified looks I get when I talk about public transport and the idea that maybe we should be planning things to be convenient for those who don't have private transport and not the other way around.

Completely agree with your point around Inverness. I am based part of every week in Inverness although I live in the far north. Inverness has a pretty chaotic bus service, Easter Ross is served by Scotrail but the ticketing leaves a lot to be desired, they certainly don't make it easy for people. A lot could and should be done to improve this and encourage cars off the road. Most people I work with in Inverness will not use the bus. the routes need improved many places require two or more buses, every route seems to be through the town centre. Villages outside Inverness could and should have better bus services, however attitudes in this part of the world are hard to change. Perhaps congestion charging is the way to go in Inverness.

Outside inverness it is really difficult to make public transport work. In my current job I interface with those trying hard to improve this and they do put a lot of work into it, but it is very difficult to make the numbers stack up to improve the frequency of services and the people to use them simply are not there. Truth is if you live in the rural parts of Highland you need a car, it is as essential as anything you own. If that is the case then you will use it. Where I live it is 17 miles into Wick. The bus costs £7. I can run my car for less than that and have flexibility over travel time as opposed to being stuck on the two buses a day we have, one of which involves a two mile gap at the end of the journey. The tourist point you make has some merit, but the season is short here, 20 weeks at best. Not a solid base for planning public transport.

 

[GusB]

Outside inverness it is really difficult to make public transport work. In my current job I interface with those trying hard to improve this and they do put a lot of work into it, but it is very difficult to make the numbers stack up to improve the frequency of services and the people to use them simply are not there. Truth is if you live in the rural parts of Highland you need a car, it is as essential as anything you own. If that is the case then you will use it. Where I live it is 17 miles into Wick. The bus costs £7. I can run my car for less than that and have flexibility over travel time as opposed to being stuck on the two buses a day we have, one of which involves a two mile gap at the end of the journey. The tourist point you make has some merit, but the season is short here, 20 weeks at best. Not a solid base for planning public transport.

I'm not within the Highland Council boundary, but I can certainly relate to this. When I moved back here a few years ago, I got myself a job in Forres. It was a two-bus job to get to and from work via Elgin. An 8am start wasn't too bad, as the same bus that did my 7.10am departure then went on to do the next run to Inverness, but thereafter the connection was usually quite tight and I normally had to add in an extra hour to make sure I made it.

On the way home, if I had an 8pm finish, there was always a bit of a panic to get down to the bus stop. If I missed that, the next one wouldn't get me back into Elgin to make my last connection home.

I bought a car that a friend was selling and, apart from the initial £250 it cost me to fix the clutch (blasted town drivers!), it cost me very little to run it thereafter compared with the amount I was spending on bus fares. I wouldn't like to think how much I spent on beer inbetween connections. The time saving was the biggest plus point for me, though - home within 30 minutes of finishing work instead of 90. It was a no-brainer.

There doesn't seem to be any joined-up thinking about what journeys people make and how they make them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There doesn't seem to be any joined-up thinking about what journeys people make and how they make them.

Indeed not. And like in Wales, the irony there is that on low-frequency services (where you have an hourly or two-hourly base) properly co-ordinating connections is much easier, much cheaper and much more important than in a city with a 5 minute frequency on most routes where there really isn't much point in bothering about it because everything naturally connects anyway.

 

[najaB]

Courtesy of [thread=153939]this thread[/thread], the best section title I've ever seen in an otherwise dry transport report. The Wick sleeper is covered in the section titled: Midnight Train to Georgemas MT2G

 

[47271]

Courtesy of [thread=153939]this thread[/thread], the best section title I've ever seen in an otherwise dry transport report. The Wick sleeper is covered in the section titled: Midnight Train to Georgemas MT2G

A tram to Kyle, a sleeper to Georgemas, whatever next from these crazy guys, a hovercraft down the Caledonian Canal?

Actually...

 

[InOban]

Courtesy of [thread=153939]this thread[/thread], the best section title I've ever seen in an otherwise dry transport report. The Wick sleeper is covered in the section titled: Midnight Train to Georgemas MT2G

Thanks for the link. Naturally I'm most interested in the section on Oban. Neither the consultants nor Hitrans ever consulted the people of Oban!

 

[Altnabreac]

Courtesy of [thread=153939]this thread[/thread], the best section title I've ever seen in an otherwise dry transport report. The Wick sleeper is covered in the section titled: Midnight Train to Georgemas MT2G

Frank Roach is quite a character and always writes a good report.

Some of his ideas are ambitious, some are eccentric and some (like this one) are just bonkers.

But he does get things done and maybe the more bonkers ideas are part of the rich tapestry that allows him to get funding for the ambitious schemes by moving the Overton Window of what a sensible rail scheme is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for the link. Naturally I'm most interested in the section on Oban. Neither the consultants nor Hitrans ever consulted the people of Oban!

When FW is closed for engineering work it sometimes serves Oban instead, I don't know what effect this has had on patronage.

 

[ld0595]

The Midnight Train to Georgemas – Caithness sleeper plans on track

A full business case on the economic benefits – including tourism impacts – of a sleeper rail service linking Caithness with the central belt is to be investigated.

The north’s transport partnership, Hitrans, is progressing its ambitious proposals to the next stage, believing sleeper trains would be a massive boost to the northern Highlands – and Orkney if timed to connect with ferry services to the islands.

The Hitrans board yesterday gave its backing for further work to be carried out to examine the benefits of a sleeper service – dubbed The Midnight Train to Georgemas after one of the train stations the proposed sleeper would visit in the far north.

Caithness MSP Gail Ross welcomed the latest development, saying: “I have been involved in the plans to create a sleeper train from Caithness since its inception. I’m delighted that this is now progressing to the business case and will give all my support to it.”

Hitrans has already held very early talks with the franchise holder of the cross-border Caledonian Sleeper service over the possibility of running a nightly service linking Thurso with Inverness, Aberdeen, Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Partnership manager Frank Roach said: “Hitrans will be looking to do some more work now on the business case, including wider economic benefits.

“The work [done so far] on the feasibility of a Caithness- Edinburgh and Glasgow overnight rail service has shown that there is a strong case for further investigation of the wider economic benefits, including tourism impacts, of the improved connectivity arising from a sleeper train linking Orkney, the Northern Highlands and Inverness with the Central Belt.”

Trudy Morris, chief executive of Caithness Chamber of Commerce, described the latest development as “good news”, adding: “We welcome any investment and opportunities which gives better connectivity for the North Highlands and adds to its attractiveness.

“A full business case study should ensure it doesn’t have a detrimental effect on existing or other modes of transport and that it enhances what the North has to offer. We are quite often the poor relations when it comes to transport infrastructure and investment.”

The Thurso to Edinburgh/Glasgow rail journey overnight would cover around 328 miles in just over seven hours.

Mr Roach proposes a service with two sleeper carriage and two seated carriages leaving Thurso at 7.30pm, reaching Inverness at 11.30pm, Aberdeen at 2.30am and Edinburgh at 5.30am.

A northbound train would leave Edinburgh at 11.50pm, arriving in Thurso for 10.30am, replacing an existing ScotRail service leaving Inverness at 7.02am.

 

[backontrack]

Perhaps they could add a Dundee stop?

 

[Clansman]

Could be further potential by calling at all principle stations en-route as an around the clock day service, similar to the Night Riviera's arrangements. For clarification, does this proposal involve two trains running from Edinburgh and Glasgow or does it involve one train running through from Glasgow? If it's the latter, the 5:30am arrival time in Edinburgh seems unattractive given it would eliminate any possibility of a flexible alighting time.

 

[BRX]

If it were two trains joining at edinburgh that would suggest just two coaches in each portion!

 

[najaB]

Perhaps they could add a Dundee stop?

There's not a lot to do in Dundee at c 4.00am. Not that I'm sure there's much do in Aberdeen at 2.30am.

If it were two trains joining at edinburgh that would suggest just two coaches in each portion!

That's not a problem in itself though, is it?

 

[BRX]

That's not a problem in itself though, is it?

No, just an expensive way of doing things I'd imagine.

More sensible would be to have the train start in Edinburgh quite late, but allow people to board a bit earlier. Then passengers from Glasgow just come on a regular train over to Edinburgh. Same in reverse.

 

[najaB]

More sensible would be to have the train start in Edinburgh quite late, but allow people to board a bit earlier. Then passengers from Glasgow just come on a regular train over to Edinburgh. Same in reverse.

That's what I expect to happen.

 

[Jonny]

Committing to one route south would be a rather iffy move. It would be better to have the option to go via the Highland Main Line instead of via Aberdeen and Dundee , should complications arise.

 

[InOban]

When FW is closed for engineering work it sometimes serves Oban instead, I don't know what effect this has had on patronage.

The first time it was booked solid by enthusiasts of the completist variety. The second time there was little publicity, and I have no information.

 

[deltic]

Rail Magazine has an item on it - suggests it would generate 29,000 trips, with 8,500 from Caithness and Orkney and 20,500 from Inverness. So in reality its just reinstating the Inverness sleeper which was a dead duck in BR days with around a dozen passengers per train traveling to destinations north of Inverness. Why is so much money wasted on fantasy schemes?

 

[Clansman]

This is what I was told in an email. Not sure how accurate it is though...

The idea is to depart Queen St 21 25 then Edinburgh 22 28 and detach portion Inverness between 02 14 and 02 54 and arrive Thurso 07 42

Southbound Thurso dep 19 30. Inverness 01 30. Edinburgh arr 05 23 leave 07 03 via Carstairs and Glasgow arr 08 11

 

[Bald Rick]

I think the proponents of this scheme need to have a good hard look at themselves.

An operation such as this will require several millions of pounds subsidy per year. For far less money, other methods are available of providing better transport to a much wider population across the whole of the region (and not just a handful of towns in Caithness).

By chance a report in the BBC yesterday examines the decline of rural bus services, noting that bus mileage in North and North Western Scotland has reduced by 10-20% in the last 3 years alone.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42749973

(Headline quoted)
"Britain's bus network has shrunk to levels last seen in the late 1980s, BBC analysis has revealed.

Rising car use and cuts to public funding are being blamed for a loss of 134 million miles of coverage over the past decade alone"

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Rail Magazine has an item on it - suggests it would generate 29,000 trips, with 8,500 from Caithness and Orkney and 20,500 from Inverness. So in reality its just reinstating the Inverness sleeper which was a dead duck in BR days with around a dozen passengers per train traveling to destinations north of Inverness. Why is so much money wasted on fantasy schemes?

As much as a dozen , old workmate who used to manage Anglo-Scottish sleepers in the 1980's , did a covert fact finding trip on the Edinburgh - Inverness one night , and found the attendant surprised at having a passenger. Yes - there were old MK1 cars .....

A solution trying to find a problem. ? - to be honest if there really is a "need" - then an overnight road sleeper coach would be just a bit more affordable. I suspect even that would need subsidy.

Reviewing a Wales and Border bid , many years ago , was perplexed to find a proposal (clearly not taken forward) , for a Holyhead - Fishguard sleeper via Hereford and Cardiff obviously - a full diner - and scope for pick ups south of Salop. Visions of someone flagging this caravan down at say Ludlow , ....

Has to be a wind up - or merely repeating "stakeholder" requests and dreams. The Welsh one I mean.

 

[cambsy]

If the Wick sleeper could connect with the 05.40 Edinburgh-London flyer, once could do Wick-London with one easy change in about 14 hours, and say a special through fare valid on the 05.40 flyer, could make a decent proposition. And going back north a decent connection off a London-Edinburgh fast train, could do it in about 14hrs again, and again with decent through fares, would get quite a bit of interest, say leave London 6pm and be in Wick etc about 8am.

 

[cambsy]

Just thinking bit more, if it was timed right and with decent through fares south of Edinburgh, could give another alternative to the Highlander, leave Inverness later, and with faster journey times south of Edinburgh, be in London etc quicker overall, and with decent planning of fares etc could be a useful service, give more options for Inverness and North of Scotland passengers.

 

[Class 170101]

To be honest if it was that worthwhile why is the last train from Wick around 16:00 in the afternoon. A daytime train from Wick leaving around 19:00 and arrive Inverness around midnight would be sufficient. Similarly an 05:00 from Inverness.

Likewise services operating in both directions departing Inverness and Edinburgh / Glasgow between 21:00 and 21:30 might be worthwhile.

 

[najaB]

To be honest if it was that worthwhile why is the last train from Wick around 16:00 in the afternoon. A daytime train from Wick leaving around 19:00 and arrive Inverness around midnight would be sufficient. Similarly an 05:00 from Inverness.

Likewise services operating in both directions departing Inverness and Edinburgh / Glasgow between 21:00 and 21:30 might be worthwhile.

That's basically what's being proposed, with the ability to through-train from Wick to Glasgow.

 

[Class 170101]

But no departure from Inverness in either direction around 01:30 - 03:00 time.

NR would never entertain it anyway with the loss of engineering time overnight. If there is demand then frankly an overnight coach would be of much better value.

 

[najaB]

NR would never entertain it anyway with the loss of engineering time overnight.

If they don't specify an Aberdeen call then they can go either way between Inverness and Perth.

If there is demand then frankly an overnight coach would be of much better value.

Even overnight coaches would struggle.