Northern Unit Refurbishments

[43096]

As someone that uses Northern in the North East on a regular basis I do feel that the North East is being left behind compared to other parts of the North, where 170s, 195s and 331s will soon be operating. All the North East will have are 156s and 158s.

And a new fleet for the East Coast Main Line. And new trains on TPE. Aren't you hard done by?

 

[DanNCL]

And a new fleet for the East Coast Main Line. And new trains on TPE. Aren't you hard done by?

VTEC and TPE are not relevant to the vast majority of local rail users in the North East.

All Northern routes in the North East will be operated by 156s, and in the case of some services on the Tyne Valley and Durham Coast routes, 158s.

Compare that to other areas of the north. 195s and 331s on all the other Northern connect routes. 170s on the Harrogate and Caldervale lines. New trains on Merseyrail and TPE (which is of use to Yorkshire and North West commuters, it isn't to the majority of commuters in the North East).

My point still stands. The services used by most commuters in the North East are not getting any improvements (before mentioning the new seats ironing boards are not an improvement), nor are they getting any increase in capacity; all trains will still be formed of 2 coaches. The only other part of the north that will be suffering from the same lack of investment in any new local trains whatsoever is Cumbria. Everywhere else in the North is getting them, why not the North East and Cumbria.

 

[Flyingsprinter]

VTEC and TPE are not relevant to the vast majority of local rail users in the North East.

All Northern routes in the North East will be operated by 156s, and in the case of some services on the Tyne Valley and Durham Coast routes, 158s.

Compare that to other areas of the north. 195s and 331s on all the other Northern connect routes. 170s on the Harrogate and Caldervale lines. New trains on Merseyrail and TPE (which is of use to Yorkshire and North West commuters, it isn't to the majority of commuters in the North East).

My point still stands. The services used by most commuters in the North East are not getting any improvements (before mentioning the new seats ironing boards are not an improvement), nor are they getting any increase in capacity; all trains will still be formed of 2 coaches. The only other part of the north that will be suffering from the same lack of investment in any new local trains whatsoever is Cumbria. Everywhere else in the North is getting them, why not the North East and Cumbria.

Just be thankful you’re not getting 150’s.

 

[DanNCL]

Just be thankful you’re not getting 150’s.

I am thankful that the North East isn't getting 150s, but I still think that the North East needs some better stock on the Northern Connect routes when everywhere else with Northern Connect routes will be getting 195s and 331s for them. For the local routes 156s and 158s are adequate, but for Northern Connect that is supposed to be offering a better standard of service they're not. Everywhere else is getting new trains for Northern Connect, so why should it be any different for the North East?

 

[notlob.divad]

I really don't like this arguing over which areas do better or worse. I do agree that the 'North East' is getting the shorter end of the stick from Northern however, if you are going to state this... as a negative for the NE.

New trains on Merseyrail.

You have to take into account this... as a massive positive for the NE.
http://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2018-01-25/new-train-fleet-for-tyne-and-wear-metro-says-nexus/

 

[capital12]

VTEC and TPE are not relevant to the vast majority of local rail users in the North East.

All Northern routes in the North East will be operated by 156s, and in the case of some services on the Tyne Valley and Durham Coast routes, 158s.

Compare that to other areas of the north. 195s and 331s on all the other Northern connect routes. 170s on the Harrogate and Caldervale lines. New trains on Merseyrail and TPE (which is of use to Yorkshire and North West commuters, it isn't to the majority of commuters in the North East).

My point still stands. The services used by most commuters in the North East are not getting any improvements (before mentioning the new seats ironing boards are not an improvement), nor are they getting any increase in capacity; all trains will still be formed of 2 coaches. The only other part of the north that will be suffering from the same lack of investment in any new local trains whatsoever is Cumbria. Everywhere else in the North is getting them, why not the North East and Cumbria.

Not technically true - a two car 156/158 is somewhat longer than a two car 142 so there is some increase in capacity there.

It also makes more financial sense to keep the new units (or any fleet for that matter) together (both in staff training and maintenance spares costs) rather than spreading them thinly around just to keep moaning MPs happy.

The refurbished 156/158s will be an improvement over what is used at the moment (better ride quality, air con in 158s, more seats or at least better seats even if you personally dislike them - I think a so called ironing board is preferable to some seats in the 142s) so your statement on no improvements is untrue.

 

[NORTHERNSOUL]

Not technically true - a two car 156/158 is somewhat longer than a two car 142 so there is some increase in capacity there.

It also makes more financial sense to keep the new units (or any fleet for that matter) together (both in staff training and maintenance spares costs) rather than spreading them thinly around just to keep moaning MPs happy.

The refurbished 156/158s will be an improvement over what is used at the moment (better ride quality, air con in 158s, more seats or at least better seats even if you personally dislike them - I think a so called ironing board is preferable to some seats in the 142s) so your statement on no improvements is untrue.

And isn't the frequency all but doubling on the Newcastle to Carlisle route.

I.m not getting any new trains on my local line either although it will be a connect route it will be operated by refurbished 158.s and 150.s on the peripheral services and i.m quite happy with that and to see the new units deployed on the services that most need then clearly the poster has never been on the rammed services into Leeds or Manchester.

But to say that the new trains and services from VTEC and TPE, The refurbished 180 trains and the expanded GC service from Sunderland along with new services to come from both First and XC wont benefit people in the North East is to put it mildly crap

But i get the feeling this guy wont be happy till Northern lay tracks to his front door and lay on a brand new unit to pick him up and then drop him off everyday.

 

[DanNCL]

But i get the feeling this guy wont be happy till Northern lay tracks to his front door and lay on a brand new unit to pick him up and then drop him off everyday.

That absolutely is not the case. My complaint is that the North East is getting less investment than other parts of the north. If the North East was getting the same amount of investment as other parts of the north I would be happy.

And isn't the frequency all but doubling on the Newcastle to Carlisle route.

The proposed timetable was for two trains departing Newcastle for Carlisle within 15 minutes of each other and then a 45 minute gap before the next one. Between Newcastle and Hexham the service will actually be worse than it currently is; at least there is a clock face timetable at the minute.

But to say that the new trains and services from VTEC and TPE, The refurbished 180 trains and the expanded GC service from Sunderland along with new services to come from both First and XC wont benefit people in the North East is to put it mildly crap

I didn't say they won't benefit anyone in the North East, I said that they won't benefit the majority of people who do not use them for their daily commute. People commuting from Middlesbrough, Hartlepool, Hexham or Carlisle to Newcastle, or from Saltburn and Redcar to Middlesbrough and Darlington are not going to find VTEC, TPE, XC, GC or the new first open access service of any use to them at all for their journey.

I.m not getting any new trains on my local line either although it will be a connect route it will be operated by refurbished 158.s and 150.s on the peripheral services and i.m quite happy with that and to see the new units deployed on the services that most need then clearly the poster has never been on the rammed services into Leeds or Manchester.

The proposals that I saw showed that the only Northern Connect route not getting 195s or 331s would be Carlisle - Middlesbrough. Is this now no longer the case? I wouldn't have a problem with 158s being used on Northern Connect in the North East if that was what other areas were getting for Northern Connect; my objection was that every other Northern Connect route appeared to be getting new build trains, whilst the route in the North East wasn't. Also, I have used the rammed services into Leeds and Manchester and agree that more capacity is desperately needed there. I wasn't saying that investment should be cut from elsewhere to go to the North East instead, I was saying that the North East should be getting the same amount of investment as other areas. I certainly don't think that the North East should get any special treatment, simply that the North East should get the same treatment as everywhere else.

I really don't like this arguing over which areas do better or worse. I do agree that the 'North East' is getting the shorter end of the stick from Northern however, if you are going to state this... as a negative for the NE.


You have to take into account this... as a massive positive for the NE.
http://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2018-01-25/new-train-fleet-for-tyne-and-wear-metro-says-nexus/

I chose a bad example with Merseyrail there. I agree that the new metro fleet is a massive positive for the NE.

I don't wish to argue any further. I was simply stating my opinion, as everyone is entitled to do. I did not intend to cause the offence that I appear to have caused.

 

[xotGD]

On the Pontefract Line, 144s with 2+2 seating are being replaced with 150s with 3+2 seating. If only we could have 156s, like the north east...

 

[47802]

Personally I think those in North East should stop moaning, not everybody can have new trains, refurbished 156/158 will be an improvement over the current Pacer/156 combo, as has already stated there will be new trains on the East Coast and TPE and isn't there over £300 million earmarked for new Tyne Metro Trains.

 

[IanXC]

Ultimately the practicalities of cycling a small part of a minority fleet through a disparate part of the Northern operation must surely be the reason that this decision has been taken? I don't think its unreasonable to think that a future new fleet might be assigned to Heaton for services in the North East, just not this time.

Anyway, this thread is about Refurbishments, and we are talking about new trains...

 

[themiller]

The proposed timetable was for two trains departing Newcastle for Carlisle within 15 minutes of each other and then a 45 minute gap before the next one. Between Newcastle and Hexham the service will actually be worse than it currently is; at least there is a clock face timetable at the minute.

Is this not for the first train to be a Connect (limited stop) service followed 15 minutes later by a stopper thus giving a clear run to the next hour's Connect service?

 

[Agent_Squash]

My point still stands. The services used by most commuters in the North East are not getting any improvements (before mentioning the new seats ironing boards are not an improvement), nor are they getting any increase in capacity; all trains will still be formed of 2 coaches. The only other part of the north that will be suffering from the same lack of investment in any new local trains whatsoever is Cumbria. Everywhere else in the North is getting them, why not the North East and Cumbria.

Aren't Barrow and Windermere, the two routes that created the need for the Connect specification in the first place, in Cumbria?

 

[northwichcat]

Aren't Barrow and Windermere, the two routes that created the need for the Connect specification in the first place, in Cumbria?

Cumbria is getting Northern Connect standard trains but many will argue that's reinstating what Cumbria had before DfT started mucking around with the TPE franchise.

 

[northwichcat]

Personally I think those in North East should stop moaning, not everybody can have new trains, refurbished 156/158 will be an improvement over the current Pacer/156 combo, as has already stated there will be new trains on the East Coast and TPE and isn't there over £300 million earmarked for new Tyne Metro Trains.

I wonder whether some would prefer TPE to provide 1tph to Newcastle and to stop serving Middlesbrough, so that the North East can have an hourly Northern Connect service between York and Newcastle and another between York and Middlesbrough using brand new 195s and 331s.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

And isn't the frequency all but doubling on the Newcastle to Carlisle route.

I.m not getting any new trains on my local line either although it will be a connect route it will be operated by refurbished 158.s and 150.s on the peripheral services and i.m quite happy with that and to see the new units deployed on the services that most need then clearly the poster has never been on the rammed services into Leeds or Manchester.

But to say that the new trains and services from VTEC and TPE, The refurbished 180 trains and the expanded GC service from Sunderland along with new services to come from both First and XC wont benefit people in the North East is to put it mildly crap

But i get the feeling this guy wont be happy till Northern lay tracks to his front door and lay on a brand new unit to pick him up and then drop him off everyday.

That’s not fair. He never implied anything like that, he purely acknowledged how while Greater Manchester and areas such as Leeds and Huddersfield along with practically the whole North West are receiving brand new trains, the North East are stuck with trains from the last century. And indeed it does seem a little unfair!

 

[LOL The Irony]

Ultimately the practicalities of cycling a small part of a minority fleet through a disparate part of the Northern operation must surely be the reason that this decision has been taken? I don't think its unreasonable to think that a future new fleet might be assigned to Heaton for services in the North East, just not this time.

Anyway, this thread is about Refurbishments, and we are talking about new trains...

Whilst it is mostly off topic, the ironing boards on steroids are supposedly being fitted to the 156/8's

 

[Malay States]

I had a ride on 150124 today, the first time I have been on one of the ex FGW units. It has been refurbished and was on the Blackpool South route. It was interesting to make a comparison with 150205, on the opposite turn, which has had partial refurbishment.
124 has seats in the new Northern moquette and a full repaint inside and out. I stand to be corrected on this, but I think the seats are the FGW Richmond ones reupholstered. Rather against the tide of opinion on this forum, I found the seats comfortable and well sprung, if rather small. The low backs give a feeling of space and light, and when clean, as it was, the white paint enhances this.
205 has the FNW Chapman seats still with the old Northern moquette. The backs are high and painted black with large yellow grab handles.
In my opinion, there was an easy winner. The main advantage of the ex FGW unit was the bright atmosphere created by the low back seats, and to a lesser degree (this is a matter of preference), better and more comfortable seats.
I was told in October that 150s were to get seats ex 156/158 when they in turn get new seats, but this clearly cannot happen yet, so it seems refurbishments are going ahead using existing seat frames. I think the work on 150124 is perfectly satisfactory for the duties they will perform, given that as 142/144s disappear, the 150 duties will be more local than now.

 

[northwichcat]

I was told in October that 150s were to get seats ex 156/158 when they in turn get new seats, but this clearly cannot happen yet, so it seems refurbishments are going ahead using existing seat frames.

If that does go ahead there won't be enough seats for all 150s to get Chapman seats even if the number with older seats is reduced.

given that as 142/144s disappear, the 150 duties will be more local than now.

I don't agree. Many of the Pacer diagrams are longer than the 150 diagrams, which diagrams get which usually depends more on capacity required than the length of the services. Old Northern happily swapped 142s for 150s and 150s for 2 x 142s when they got the extra 150s from London Midland.

 

[northwichcat]

That’s not fair. He never implied anything like that, he purely acknowledged how while Greater Manchester and areas such as Leeds and Huddersfield along with practically the whole North West are receiving brand new trains, the North East are stuck with trains from the last century. And indeed it does seem a little unfair!

What new trains are going to go to Huddersfield? The only ones I know about are the new TPE trains - the same ones which will serve Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Durham, Chester-le-Street, Morpeth, Darlington, Yarm and Thornaby. It could equally be argued why should places like Yarm and Thornaby get brand new state of the art trains with on board media streaming, 2+2 seating, tables and charging points while larger towns with much higher rail usage (including some in Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire) get stuck with 150s?

 

[yorksrob]

I wonder whether some would prefer TPE to provide 1tph to Newcastle and to stop serving Middlesbrough, so that the North East can have an hourly Northern Connect service between York and Newcastle and another between York and Middlesbrough using brand new 195s and 331s.

Not unless there's something replacing our connection for Whitby.

 

[dm.701]

Not sure if possible but I feel like some 185s should head Northern's way. They could supplement 195s on Connect routes. Won't there be surplus 185s when the new TPE stock is introduced?

 

[jayiscupid]

Yes, the bolts show the sag pretty well. If you looklat some of the roofs too, they sag at the same point as the body, it gives a visual effect of being melted.

I'm curious to know how the 155s aren't suffering from the same? Were there modifications made when they created the 153s that caused the sag?
Considering the shortage of DMUs I can't understand why it's worth upgrading the 155s but not pairing the 153s back into a fleet of 35 x 2 car DMUs (or better yet 3 car).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm curious to know how the 155s aren't suffering from the same? Were there modifications made when they created the 153s that caused the sag?
Considering the shortage of DMUs I can't understand why it's worth upgrading the 155s but not pairing the 153s back into a fleet of 35 x 2 car DMUs (or better yet 3 car).

If you're a sag-sceptic (I'm still not convinced either that it exists or that if it does, it's structurally significant) it seems bizarre that this (the "re-155ing") doesn't appear to have been seriously proposed by anyone within the industry. The total number of vehicles divides neatly into 28 3-car units (but of course they're not all under the same ownership! ). The sag issue if it exists would explain it, but for the retention of the 155s unless as you suggest the sag was caused "post-partum"... then again, Northern may or may not be regretting keeping the 155s on given the state of the first one that went for refurbishment!

 

[NORTHERNSOUL]

That absolutely is not the case. My complaint is that the North East is getting less investment than other parts of the north. If the North East was getting the same amount of investment as other parts of the north I would be happy.

<snip>

1 Yes i agree that proposed schedule is ridiculous but as I understand it they were told to go away and sort it

2 Try the York to Blackpool service which unless something has changed will be served under Connect by refurbished 158.s which i.m not unhappy with but i can see a bigger argument for using the new trains on that route that on a number of places they are going but I guess its the sheer number of units needed to fill the diagrams that's gone against that and I suppose the pushing back of the electrification programme has made them sort of just put it on hold [ ie if it is getting done 158.s then electrics if its definitely not and they'd known that then Bi Modes would be the option ] The other routes that serve my local station COLNE - BPOOL STH and BBURN - MAN VIC Via Todmorden with both continue to be served by whatever they have available most likely 150.s

And no you didnt cause offence i just couldnt see the justification for what you were suggesting.

 

[xotGD]

"Post-partum" Excellent!!!

 

[M1544]

156420 is on its way back north from Wolverton according to posts elsewhere.

 

[superalbs]

156420 is on its way back north from Wolverton according to posts elsewhere.

Apparently also the first one to get a proper interior refurb, or so I have read.

 

[yorksrob]

Apparently also the first one to get a proper interior refurb, or so I have read.

I look forward to seeing some photo's. It will be interesting to feel what sort of a disaster zone the seats are.

 

[Chester1]

Not sure if possible but I feel like some 185s should head Northern's way. They could supplement 195s on Connect routes. Won't there be surplus 185s when the new TPE stock is introduced?

Northerns remaining obligation is for 18 x 2 car DMUs equivalent to 170s, either cascaded or new. 185s have high opperating costs too. While in theory 22 x 185s will go off lease by the end of 2023 the majority of them won't if the East Midlands franchise review gives Liverpool to Nottingham to TPE which would require 12 x 185s + spares. Once platform extensions are complete the Hull skip stop service could run with double units. That would require another 5 + spares.

158s are good trains and with a refurbishment to meet the Northern Connect standard they will be fine for long distance services. I definitely expect them to be the last surviving sprinters on the network.