Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

[jonesy3001]

not happening northern have said the 323s are leaving once the 331s start arriving into service.

 

[Starmill]

not happening northern have said the 323s are leaving once the 331s start arriving into service.

Both this and the rumours 507 001 have heard could be true at the same time. An extension is entirely possible. It would be very much in the interest of the leasing company to be offering competitive rates on an extension wouldn't it?

 

[jonesy3001]

Both this and the rumours 507 001 have heard could be true at the same time. An extension is entirely possible.

its a believe it till you see it type thing.

 

[tbtc]

The only wired route is Newcastle, Morpeth, Chathill. Is it worth doing for maybe two units max? Bit of a drop in Noethern’s ocean...

Also the 3 peak morning services if you split the Saltburn to Newcastle via ECML services at Darlo BUT they use those services to rotate units off Bishop to Saltburn so they can get to Heaton next night. Still doesn't warrant a EMU though

Plus there's the problem that BR didn't electrify the short headshunt that the (Metro Centre) Newcastle - Morpeth services reverse at - so for the sake of a (couple of?) hundred yards of wiring, any Newcastle - Morpeth shuttle run by an EMU would have to run up to Chathill to reverse (could run in service but I think Chahill gets daily passenger numbers that are in single figures). Could run it all the way to Berwick to reverse, I guess, but then that means even more additional miles, plus the scope for a 90mph EMU on the ECML may be limited the further the journey is.

Looks like a lot of hassle for the sake of saving a couple of DMUs (by the time you worry about staff training and maintenance on a new type of unit etc)... it's like The North's answer to the Lymington branch (which used to get all the wild and wacky suggestions for a single non-standard EMU to operate it - though thankfully those kind of suggestions seem to have stopped?).

 

[pemma]

not happening northern have said the 323s are leaving once the 331s start arriving into service.

Before the franchise was let Porterbrook told Northern they couldn't have the 323s beyond January 2019 because they expected the next West Midlands franchise to want them.

 

[Anvil1984]

I agree not worth it but disagree that we have to run all the way to Chathill (or technically that we reverse at a headshunt as the line goes right through to Bedlington and beyond). If Coopies Lane sidings are out of use the second choice is to turn back just south of Pegswood and we don't tend to get in the way of anything to be honest (even easier with 90mph stock) and don't lose much time doing so.

still sending 323s would be worthless though

 

[IanXC]

Plus there's the problem that BR didn't electrify the short headshunt that the (Metro Centre) Newcastle - Morpeth services reverse at - so for the sake of a (couple of?) hundred yards of wiring, any Newcastle - Morpeth shuttle run by an EMU would have to run up to Chathill to reverse (could run in service but I think Chahill gets daily passenger numbers that are in single figures).

lts really not that much of a problem, I'm pretty certain the loop after Morpeth (Morpeth Loop?) *is* wired and has the appropriate point work for turnbacks.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The thing about this rumour is it makes sense, the class 323s are popular with commuters and the class 319s have performance impacts on the routes they serve. Doesn't mean it is true but there is certainly an element of logic about it.

Commuters prefer 3-car trains to 4-car ones do they? I would suggest they don't and 1 or 2 minutes off the journey time wouldn't make up for it.

 

[DanNCL]

I think having a small number of them in the North East (maybe 10?) would be a good idea. I think there was a proposal to extend the Newcastle - Morpeth service to Berwick. It would be silly to use DMUs on that simply so that those services can extend to the Metro Centre. The Newcastle - Metro Centre section of that journey is used by very few people anyway, so it wouldn't be much of in issue if the service was cut back to Newcastle.

Nexus also wanted (not sure if they still do or not) the electrification on the Newcastle - Sunderland route converted to 25kV once the new Metro fleet has entered service. In the event that the Newcastle - Sunderland route is converted to 25kV that would be another route in the North East that 323s could be used on.

Commuters prefer 3-car trains to 4-car ones do they? I would suggest they don't and 1 or 2 minutes off the journey time wouldn't make up for it.

323s have 23m bodyshells, whereas the 319s have 20m bodyshells. Therefore a 3-car 323 is only 11 metres shorter than a 4-car 319. As the extra gangway connection on the 319s takes up some of that extra space that can't be used for more seats, the capacity difference between a 3-car 323 and a 4-car 319 is very small.

 

[jonesy3001]

Before the franchise was let Porterbrook told Northern they couldn't have the 323s beyond January 2019 because they expected the next West Midlands franchise to want them.

so no-one knows whats happening to them it`s the rumour mill going into overdrive again and i`m probably not the only one that wants them to stay with northern.

 

[Bertie the bus]

323s have 23m bodyshells, whereas the 319s have 20m bodyshells. Therefore a 3-car 323 is only 11 metres shorter than a 4-car 319. As the extra gangway connection on the 319s takes up some of that extra space that can't be used for more seats, the capacity difference between a 3-car 323 and a 4-car 319 is very small.

The difference in capacity (seating or standing) isn't "very small" at all. Even if the difference was just 10, which it isn't, it would still be an utterly ridiculous thing to do and the complete opposite of what is happening everywhere else in the country.

 

[Starmill]

Commuters prefer 3-car trains to 4-car ones do they? I would suggest they don't and 1 or 2 minutes off the journey time wouldn't make up for it.

A 319 and a 323 at present have almost the same number of seats. Modification of a 323 for 2020 may reduce this slightly.

 

[Anvil1984]

I think having a small number of them in the North East (maybe 10?) would be a good idea. I think there was a proposal to extend the Newcastle - Morpeth service to Berwick. It would be silly to use DMUs on that simply so that those services can extend to the Metro Centre. The Newcastle - Metro Centre section of that journey is used by very few people anyway, so it wouldn't be much of in issue if the service was cut back to Newcastle.

Nexus also wanted (not sure if they still do or not) the electrification on the Newcastle - Sunderland route converted to 25kV once the new Metro fleet has entered service. In the event that the Newcastle - Sunderland route is converted to 25kV that would be another route in the North East that 323s could be used on.

Berwick to Newcastle is not going to happen in the Northern Franchise. From May (or perhaps delayed until December) the services from Morpeth will go to Carlisle and not just Metrocentre (in turn the hourly service from Newcastle - Metrocentre or beyond will go from 4tph to 3tph) Its been something that's been proposed for the Scotrail franchise but is unlikely to happen. Sunderland to Newcastle may have the conversion but the wires wont extend towards Middlesbrough so until they do again it'll be useless. Simply not going to happen

 

[507 001]

Platforms on the Chat Moss route can take 6 car trains but not 8 car. Therefore during peak times the use of 323s would allow an increase in capacity. Off peak the difference would be negligible.

Remember that the original plan for the 319s was to reduce them to 3 cars until it was determined it would be too difficult. A 3 car 319 would have significantly less capacity than a 3 car 323.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

319s have 319 seats (appropriately), 323s have 284.
Some variation among 319s which had 1st class (most Northern units didn't).
Lengths are 80m v 70m.

Significant money has been spent on reworking the 319s for Northern, including PRM mods (no idea who paid for that, maybe DfT).
Northern are taking a tranche of 319 conversions to 769s anyway, so cannot eliminate the type.
323s may need PRM mods and probably don't meet Northern's DOO specification.
I expect they will be extended through 2019 if there is any delay to 331 introduction.

 

[pemma]

so no-one knows whats happening to them it`s the rumour mill going into overdrive again and i`m probably not the only one that wants them to stay with northern.

I don't think 'no one knows' is true. Porterbrook would have known for months that their plan for 323s to go to the next West Midlands franchise was a non-starter and Northern have known for a while that the franchise won't pan out the way they expected it to when it was let.

 

[pemma]

Northern are taking a tranche of 319 conversions to 769s anyway, so cannot eliminate the type.

The 769s were seen as a short term measure and the agreement for Northern taking them on was on the basis Porterbrook could have 8 ready for the May 2018 timetable change. Regardless of whether Northern take on the 323s I'm not even sure they planned to still have 769s on the date the WMT 323s will be released.

probably don't meet Northern's DOO specification.

Neither do the 319s. Northern's DCO specification is based on the equipment being on board not on the platforms, which is the 319s require to operate as DOO. I don't think anyone is suggesting Northern will get 323s instead of DCO capable 331s.

 

[Domh245]

323s may need PRM mods and probably don't meet Northern's DOO specification.
I expect they will be extended through 2019 if there is any delay to 331 introduction.

319s aren't either though, so if the 323s are being used as a 319 replacement then there isn't any issue there. Also coming back to the seating numers, 319 seats is only achieved without a universal toilet, once the toilet is in place the seating comes out at around 291 seats.

 

[50032]

Platforms on the Chat Moss route can take 6 car trains

Can they? IIRC there are many platforms of around 100m in length and 2x323 is 140m.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Wavertree, Whiston, Lea Green, Earlestown P2 and Newton le Willows are shorter than 140m.

 

[pemma]

Wavertree, Whiston, Lea Green, Earlestown P2 and Newton le Willows are shorter than 140m.

The latter two are supposed to get platform lengthening to allow 6 x 23m, so without any further work it would be possible for 6 car 323s to leave Lime Street with the rear unit locked out-of-use and for it to be opened at Earlestown.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Or would it be possible to install ASDO?

 

[Bevan Price]

The latter two are supposed to get platform lengthening to allow 6 x 23m, so without any further work it would be possible for 6 car 323s to leave Lime Street with the rear unit locked out-of-use and for it to be opened at Earlestown.

That would be rather silly when the busiest section is between Earlestown & Liverpool.

 

[50032]

Wavertree, Whiston, Lea Green, Earlestown P2 and Newton le Willows are shorter than 140m.

No point in me listing them all, but there are a few more than that

 

[61653 HTAFC]

When the North-West electrification programme was initially announced, there was talk of reducing some 319s to 3-car in order to allow 6-car formations to run. Obviously much has changed since then, but it seems that 8-car 319s were ruled out early on. This could be down to demand forecasts not requiring 8x20m, but part of the equation may have been the costs of the platform extensions required for 160m formations versus 140m. 20m isn't a big difference but could be the difference between whether signals or pointwork need moving or not.

323s to me seem a better fit than 319s to many of the services they'd be used on. 90mph is fine especially coupled with the vastly superior (based largely on wibble, admittedly) acceleration compared to 319s. Crews and fitters have more experience with 323s than 319s, and they are newer.

Given the unexpected decision to replace the 323s in Birmingham, they should theoretically be available at a competitive leasing cost. The lack of 2020-compliance is an issue though.

 

[Halish Railway]

Why did Northern want to get rid of them in the first place?

Also is corrosion an issue?

 

[DanNCL]

Why did Northern want to get rid of them in the first place?

iirc Northern didn't want to get rid of them. Porterbrook had wanted all of the 323s in the West Midlands; now that's not happening so that'll most likely be why it's rumored that Northern are getting them all.

 

[Halish Railway]

iirc Northern didn't want to get rid of them. Porterbrook had wanted all of the 323s in the West Midlands; now that's not happening so that'll most likely be why it's rumored that Northern are getting them all.

Of course, silly me. We can now claim the 323's as another victim of the franchising system. Let's hope that Northern can save them.

 

[Prestige15]

not happening northern have said the 323s are leaving once the 331s start arriving into service.

Circumstances can change, GWR with their 365's is an example

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

iirc Northern didn't want to get rid of them. Porterbrook had wanted all of the 323s in the West Midlands; now that's not happening so that'll most likely be why it's rumored that Northern are getting them all.

Keeping the 323s would have meant no new 331s, possibly wrecking the whole CAF new train order.