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ScotRail May 2018 Timetable change

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Stopper

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Of course, the trains would almost certainly be busier if there were stations at Abronhill and Bonnybridge. Urban areas these (probably relatively lightly loaded by comparison with the E&G) trains to both of Scotland's largest cities will pass right through...

Both would certainly be welcome in my eyes. Abronhill would give a 4th option to Cumbernauld which may help to spread demand as some have suggested.

Bonnybridge would probably have the best business case on the line as it also serves the wider area of Denny, Dunipace, Banknock and Haggs etc. It also (I’m not too familiar with the area) would have the possibility of being located just east of Greenhill Upper Jn which would probably mean being served by the Glasgow-Stirling/Alloa. A 4tph Glasgow, 2tph Edinburgh and 2tph Stirling is a perfect business case for the station.

Winchburgh also deserves a station, I’m not sure how far the progress is with it but I’d hope it’d open soon. A rapidly growing village/town but would likely only be served by 2tph to Edinburgh and a long roundabout way to Glasgow (2tph). So it probably isn’t as strong a candidate.

These probably make the long E-G via Cumbernauld even slower, but oh well.
 
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kbrockie

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I'm new to this thread but could someone tell me what, if anything, will change about trains between Larbert and Edinburgh?
 

Glenmutchkin

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I'm new to this thread but could someone tell me what, if anything, will change about trains between Larbert and Edinburgh?

The proposal is for the Edinburgh- Dunblane trains that call at Larbert to run non-stop between Haymarket and Falkirk Grahamston and vice versa.
 

kbrockie

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The proposal is for the Edinburgh- Dunblane trains that call at Larbert to run non-stop between Haymarket and Falkirk Grahamston and vice versa.

Thanks for that, from reading previous posts wasn't sure if Larbert would still have direct trains. Open train times has no trains at all from LBT to EDB but presumably that's because the WTT isn't finalised yet.

Cheers
 

kbrockie

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Note that Scotrail trains in week after timetable change are available today. Dunblane - Edinburgh showing as all stops but is that likely to change?

Ta.
 

hexagon789

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Note that Scotrail trains in week after timetable change are available today. Dunblane - Edinburgh showing as all stops but is that likely to change?

Ta.

I think the calling pattern alterations where due together with 385 introduction but as the latter is delayed perhaps the changes won't be made yet?
 
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Noticed this morning on RTT that most of the new hourly arbroath to Edinburgh services have been removed, indicating that the service is postponed until possibly December.

Also, is the new hourly montrose to Aberdeen still going ahead as planned?
 

backontrack

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Both would certainly be welcome in my eyes. Abronhill would give a 4th option to Cumbernauld which may help to spread demand as some have suggested.

Bonnybridge would probably have the best business case on the line as it also serves the wider area of Denny, Dunipace, Banknock and Haggs etc. It also (I’m not too familiar with the area) would have the possibility of being located just east of Greenhill Upper Jn which would probably mean being served by the Glasgow-Stirling/Alloa. A 4tph Glasgow, 2tph Edinburgh and 2tph Stirling is a perfect business case for the station.

Winchburgh also deserves a station, I’m not sure how far the progress is with it but I’d hope it’d open soon. A rapidly growing village/town but would likely only be served by 2tph to Edinburgh and a long roundabout way to Glasgow (2tph). So it probably isn’t as strong a candidate.

These probably make the long E-G via Cumbernauld even slower, but oh well.
THOSE PROPOSED NEW CROY/CUMBERNAULD LINE STATIONS IN FULL:
  • Abronhill
  • Bannockburn
  • Blackford
  • Bridge of Allan (resited)
  • Bonnybridge
  • Cambus
  • Clackmannan
  • Glenboig
  • Grangemouth
  • Kincardine
  • Robroyston
  • Westerhill
  • Winchburgh
  • Woodilee
  • Er...
  • That's it.
 
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DuncanS

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Note that Scotrail trains in week after timetable change are available today. Dunblane - Edinburgh showing as all stops but is that likely to change?

Ta.
Funnily enough I asked on Saturday what was happening as the timetable was showing that there was one direct train per day from Falkirk G to Stirling and back, it was promoting a trip via Lenzie, Croy and Polmont as my best option. The Scotrail response was that the timetable wasn't yet finalised and therefore what was online may not be the actual train times.
 

Voyager lad

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This is a really random idea to alleviate the issue of the speeded up Dunblane - Edinburgh trains. Have them calling Dunblane, Bridge of Allan, Stirling, Larbert, Falkirk Grahamston, Haymarket and Waverley. To pick up missed stops, run a service between Stirling and Edinburgh Park calling at all stations.
 

Highlandspring

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What would you do with your service after it got to Edinburgh Park..? There’s no facility to turn so it would have to go to Haymarket; if it turns in platform 0 then it would have to cross the North lines which brings the place to a standstill so you might as well run it through to Waverley but then you’re running an extra service through the Gardens. There’s no easy answer to the capacity constraints on the E&G corridor!
 

Stopper

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I don’t think it’d be a bad idea. They’re planning to run extra E-G via Cumbernauld services anyway so capacity into Waverley clearly isn’t the issue.

That’s obviously if these were run instead, rather than alongside.
 
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tbtc

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Because we will lose direct trains to Stirling and Dunblane. Not everybody wants to go to Edinburgh or Glasgow or even Cumbernauld.

I'd guess that Glasgow is a bigger destination than Dunblane for most places.

Yes, some direct links are lost but then passengers from Dalgety Bay/ Aberdour/ Burntisland/ Kinghorn don't have direct daytime services to Dundee and the world seems to cope okay - it makes sense for Dundee - Edinburgh services to omit smaller stations south of Kirkcaldy (with a local service catering for journeys between Kirkcaldy and Edinburgh), just as it makes sense to speed up the Stirling - Edinburgh services with capacity at Polmont/ Linlithgow to be provided by another service.

If the Cumbernauld - Edinburgh is going to be as low as people are suggesting then the "downgrading" from a four coach 158 to a three coach 385 will still mean more seats at Polmont/ Linlithgow, since they won't have to fight against Stirling passengers.

Camelon sems to get many more services than passenger numbers "deserve", but then what's the simple alternative? The new proposal gives good connections between Gatcosh/ Cumbernauld and Stirling every half hour. Dropping the Stirling calls completely would cause problems (unless people think that Camelon passengers should be forced to double back to swap platforms at Grahamston whilst it's unfair for Linlithgow passengers to have a same platform interchange?). Going down to just hourly on the Stirling services (and Cumbernauld service?) would remove a lot of the interchange opportunities between Stirlingshire and Lanarkshire.

Cumbernauld is a large place, as @Altnabreac says, and a growing one too - I think that some people overlook populations changes - historically "large" places aren't always so big in the twenty first century. Like the threads where people complain about "InterCity" services from Edinburgh to Inverness stopping at "small" places like Kirkcaldy, ignoring the fact that Kirkcaldy is bigger than Inverness. Plus Cumbernauld has rail links to Coatbridge etc, for through services to Falkirk etc (ignoring the A2B direct services from Monklands into Edinburgh).
 

Altnabreac

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I'd guess that Glasgow is a bigger destination than Dunblane for most places.

Yes, some direct links are lost but then passengers from Dalgety Bay/ Aberdour/ Burntisland/ Kinghorn don't have direct daytime services to Dundee and the world seems to cope okay - it makes sense for Dundee - Edinburgh services to omit smaller stations south of Kirkcaldy (with a local service catering for journeys between Kirkcaldy and Edinburgh), just as it makes sense to speed up the Stirling - Edinburgh services with capacity at Polmont/ Linlithgow to be provided by another service.

If the Cumbernauld - Edinburgh is going to be as low as people are suggesting then the "downgrading" from a four coach 158 to a three coach 385 will still mean more seats at Polmont/ Linlithgow, since they won't have to fight against Stirling passengers.

Camelon sems to get many more services than passenger numbers "deserve", but then what's the simple alternative? The new proposal gives good connections between Gatcosh/ Cumbernauld and Stirling every half hour. Dropping the Stirling calls completely would cause problems (unless people think that Camelon passengers should be forced to double back to swap platforms at Grahamston whilst it's unfair for Linlithgow passengers to have a same platform interchange?). Going down to just hourly on the Stirling services (and Cumbernauld service?) would remove a lot of the interchange opportunities between Stirlingshire and Lanarkshire.

Cumbernauld is a large place, as @Altnabreac says, and a growing one too - I think that some people overlook populations changes - historically "large" places aren't always so big in the twenty first century. Like the threads where people complain about "InterCity" services from Edinburgh to Inverness stopping at "small" places like Kirkcaldy, ignoring the fact that Kirkcaldy is bigger than Inverness. Plus Cumbernauld has rail links to Coatbridge etc, for through services to Falkirk etc (ignoring the A2B direct services from Monklands into Edinburgh).

One solution post electrification might be to extend the Milngavie - Cumbernauld via Hamilton circle service northwards to Stirling. This would give direct connections from Lanarkshire to Stirling and potentially allow the Camelon calls to be dropped from the fast Stirling services. Not 100% sure it would wash its face in terms of passenger numbers currently but would definitely be worthwhile to serve the proposed High Speed Rail station at Eurocentral in future.
 

Voyager lad

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What would you do with your service after it got to Edinburgh Park..? There’s no facility to turn so it would have to go to Haymarket; if it turns in platform 0 then it would have to cross the North lines which brings the place to a standstill so you might as well run it through to Waverley but then you’re running an extra service through the Gardens. There’s no easy answer to the capacity constraints on the E&G corridor!
There is space to build a new platform on the north side of the station, adjacent to platform 1. Whilst it wouldn’t be a cheap option it’d provide peak time connections for those working in the business parks and better links for those coming from Linlithgow etc to get to the airport by tram. Alternatively the train could run Stirling - Linlithgow (all stops) but a link to Edinburgh Park would be more useful.
 

Altnabreac

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There is space to build a new platform on the north side of the station, adjacent to platform 1. Whilst it wouldn’t be a cheap option it’d provide peak time connections for those working in the business parks and better links for those coming from Linlithgow etc to get to the airport by tram. Alternatively the train could run Stirling - Linlithgow (all stops) but a link to Edinburgh Park would be more useful.

So to summarise you propose:
Another flat crossing on the second busiest section of two track railway in Scotland.
Reducing from 4tph Linlithgow - Edinburgh to 2tph
Reducing from 4tph Polmont - Edinburgh to 2tph
Reducing from 2tph Camelon - Edinburgh to 0tph

What could be better for punctuality, reliability and service quality than reducing services and increasing conflicts.
 

Voyager lad

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So to summarise you propose:
Another flat crossing on the second busiest section of two track railway in Scotland.
Reducing from 4tph Linlithgow - Edinburgh to 2tph
Reducing from 4tph Polmont - Edinburgh to 2tph
Reducing from 2tph Camelon - Edinburgh to 0tph

What could be better for punctuality, reliability and service quality than reducing services and increasing conflicts.
With the 2tph Glasgow - Edinburgh via Cumbernauld service patterns would be unchanged
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Regarding the suggested Stirling - Edinburgh Park above, might an alternative suggestion be to run a Stirling - Dalmeny local all stations?

Although it would not be possible to serve Edinburgh Park owing to it being east of Winchburgh Junction, it could provide some journey opportunities such as Linlithgow - Fife (by changing at Dalmeny) as well as Stirling - Linlithgow. This would also avoid the congestion at Haymarket too, and could be trialled as an experimental service if need be provided there are quality connections at Dalmeny.
 

Voyager lad

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Regarding the suggested Stirling - Edinburgh Park above, might an alternative suggestion be to run a Stirling - Dalmeny local all stations?

Although it would not be possible to serve Edinburgh Park owing to it being east of Winchburgh Junction, it could provide some journey opportunities such as Linlithgow - Fife (by changing at Dalmeny) as well as Stirling - Linlithgow. This would also avoid the congestion at Haymarket too, and could be trialled as an experimental service if need be provided there are quality connections at Dalmeny.
That’s actually quite a good suggestion. It could be run up to Inverkeithing (I’m not very familiar with Fife so I don’t know about where it could be turned back) to create further journey opportunities.
 

Highlandspring

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That’s an interesting suggestion. Such a service could recess in Inverkeithing Yard to start back (much easier than trying to turn at Dalmeny) or, if we want to really go out on a limb, carry on up the coast to Glenrothes and return to Stirling via Dunfermline, Culross and Alloa.
 

InOban

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There has been for many years a single M-F train from Markinch to Queen St. A bit difficult to trace as it jumps between timetables. In the evening it's the 17.33 departure.
 

Stopper

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I'd guess that Glasgow is a bigger destination than Dunblane for most places.

Yes, some direct links are lost but then passengers from Dalgety Bay/ Aberdour/ Burntisland/ Kinghorn don't have direct daytime services to Dundee and the world seems to cope okay - it makes sense for Dundee - Edinburgh services to omit smaller stations south of Kirkcaldy (with a local service catering for journeys between Kirkcaldy and Edinburgh), just as it makes sense to speed up the Stirling - Edinburgh services with capacity at Polmont/ Linlithgow to be provided by another service.

If the Cumbernauld - Edinburgh is going to be as low as people are suggesting then the "downgrading" from a four coach 158 to a three coach 385 will still mean more seats at Polmont/ Linlithgow, since they won't have to fight against Stirling passengers.

Camelon sems to get many more services than passenger numbers "deserve", but then what's the simple alternative? The new proposal gives good connections between Gatcosh/ Cumbernauld and Stirling every half hour. Dropping the Stirling calls completely would cause problems (unless people think that Camelon passengers should be forced to double back to swap platforms at Grahamston whilst it's unfair for Linlithgow passengers to have a same platform interchange?). Going down to just hourly on the Stirling services (and Cumbernauld service?) would remove a lot of the interchange opportunities between Stirlingshire and Lanarkshire.

Cumbernauld is a large place, as @Altnabreac says, and a growing one too - I think that some people overlook populations changes - historically "large" places aren't always so big in the twenty first century. Like the threads where people complain about "InterCity" services from Edinburgh to Inverness stopping at "small" places like Kirkcaldy, ignoring the fact that Kirkcaldy is bigger than Inverness. Plus Cumbernauld has rail links to Coatbridge etc, for through services to Falkirk etc (ignoring the A2B direct services from Monklands into Edinburgh).

Dalgety Bay etc are absolutely nowhere near as busy as Linlithgow and Polmont, so that example isn’t very good.

Cumbernauld is already served well by Croy, I don’t think people realise that running an increased amount of painfully slow stoppers at Cumbernauld, isn’t actually gonna reduce pressure at Croy, which has much faster journey times.
 

Highlandspring

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There has been for many years a single M-F train from Markinch to Queen St. A bit difficult to trace as it jumps between timetables. In the evening it's the 17.33 departure.
You’re thinking of 1N79 1733 Glasgow Queen Street to Markinch. The corresponding morning service is 1N80 0713 Kirkcaldy to Glasgow Queen Street.
 

Altnabreac

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With the 2tph Glasgow - Edinburgh via Cumbernauld service patterns would be unchanged

Ah if you're suggesting it as well as the Cumbernauld service then it's an even worse idea.

An additional 2tph across the flat junction at Newbridge (14tph total) and your new flat crossing at Edinburgh Park has even more conflicts.

The benefits are also smaller as you are only dropping Camelon and Edinburgh Park.

Really bad idea unfortunately.
 

Stopper

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The whole timetable change that’s proposed is a bad idea. It’s the only positive about the 385s being delayed for me.

If only the Almond chord was built.
 

route101

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There has been for many years a single M-F train from Markinch to Queen St. A bit difficult to trace as it jumps between timetables. In the evening it's the 17.33 departure.

Yeah ,i find the Central Scotland timetable hard to read .
 

route:oxford

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The proposal is for the Edinburgh- Dunblane trains that call at Larbert to run non-stop between Haymarket and Falkirk Grahamston and vice versa.

Ok, so how many services per hour are going to operate between Dunblane and Edinburgh?

It's sounding like there'll be a significant loss of direct services to Edinburgh Park...

Is this an outcome of Scotrail's failure to fix their long-term IT problem that prevents the sale of Tram + Train tickets from many stations in the central belt via machine or on-line?

Have you ever been to Falkirk Grahamston?

It's awful. We used to be threatened with Falkirk at school.

"You'll end up at Falkirk, and businessmen on their way to and from Edinburgh will watch you boarding or disembarking, knowing that you are a failure. Just think how utterly humiliated your parents will be".
 

InOban

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I believe the Dunblane services will still call at Edinburgh Park.
 

Stopper

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I thought it was fast Falkirk Grahamston to Haymarket?

They are fast from Falkirk Grahamston to Edinburgh Park. Edinburgh Park will also get the Cumbernauld services. So 8tph to Edinburgh, 4tph Bathgate line, 2tph Dunblane, 2tph Glasgow via Cumbernauld, a very good service for Edinburgh Park.
 
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