GWR Class 800

[physics34]

Basically my view as well - an utterly mediocre train with an utterly mediocre interior at an utterly outrageous price.

Just look at what TPE are getting (interior wise) if you want quality. Or Stadler. Or for a more traditional 125mph bi-mode I think Bombardier's product will knock spots off them.

I would not be at all upset if Hitachi got no further orders of any kind for the UK with the third-rate products they appear to be offering.

Keep the seat issues in the public eye...keep complaining about this.....something needs to be done. They should already be looking at making improvements to them or at least the fleet that hasnt been delivered yet. Negative publicity will put pressure on them to at least replace the seat bases with something more cushioned.

 

[Domh245]

Assuming the electrification projects complete, what do we think will happen to the 9 car sets. Will they be changed back to all-electric to save weight? Or will they be palmed off onto such as the MML TOC? Same question about the 5 car sets.

Depends how complete the electrification is. If it gets to Bristol and Swansea then yes we may see the trains revert to how they were ordered initially, with all of the 9 cars being 801 EMUs, and all of the 5 cars being 800 Bi modes. They won't be cascaded around for the duration of the IEP contract (assuming nothing bonkers happens, big if admitedly!) They are effectively tied down to the GWML services for the duration of the contact because of the way it is written in terms of a certain number of units provided every day serviced at certain depots and so on. Agility could replace them with new units and use the existing ones to fill orders for Hitachi elsewhere but the odds of that happening are near zero.

 

[D1009]

Assuming the electrification projects complete, what do we think will happen to the 9 car sets. Will they be changed back to all-electric to save weight? Or will they be palmed off onto such as the MML TOC? Same question about the 5 car sets.

If you are referring to GW electrification, because Swansea has been officially cancelled, the sets will remain as bi-mode for the foreseeable future. I don't regard 2040 as the foreseeable future, unlike some Govt ministers.

 

[Roast Veg]

Who would instigate conversion of the units back to last mile configuration? Would agility trains voluntarily renegotiate their contract or would the DfT press them into it?

 

[swt_passenger]

Conversion is still in the issue 5 train tech specs on DfTs website:

“TS1968
A Bi-mode IEP Unit must be capable of being readily modified to an Electric IEP Unit at a future date by the removal of Self Power Sources from one or more IEP Vehicles.“

It really oughtn't need difficult renegotiation at the time unless DfT have scored another own goal since...

 

[bastien]

Who would instigate conversion of the units back to last mile configuration? Would agility trains voluntarily renegotiate their contract or would the DfT press them into it?

Would it just end up dragging a big concrete block around instead of the diesel lump?

 

[D1009]

Would it just end up dragging a big concrete block around instead of the diesel lump?

Why would it do that?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my opinion the new material actually makes the seats worse. I couldn't notice any real difference in the padding, but the covering used is now very rough and scratchy rather than smooth.

And they are still drab, boring grey. And that pig-ugly 1980s bus-style lime green stripe is still there.

Someone needs to whack them round the head with a book on interior design. It's quite shocking that the Class 387 interior (a suburban EMU, remember) is superior in every way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would it do that?

I guess he's referring to the fact that the Mk3 and Mk4 DVTs contain just that so they are heavy enough in case of an accident not to go flying around all over the place. (Similar to the concrete block found in most washing machines in concept, I guess).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Keep the seat issues in the public eye...keep complaining about this.....something needs to be done. They should already be looking at making improvements to them or at least the fleet that hasnt been delivered yet. Negative publicity will put pressure on them to at least replace the seat bases with something more cushioned.

And the backs with one without the wings as they are too low for the comfort of tall people, they push your shoulders forward forcing you to slouch uncomfortably. An utterly awful design.

 

[najaB]

I guess he's referring to the fact that the Mk3 and Mk4 DVTs contain just that so they are heavy enough in case of an accident not to go flying around all over the place.

More likely so that the suspension characteristics don't change. That said, the design probably takes the possibility of future conversion into account.

 

[hexagon789]

And they are still drab, boring grey. And that pig-ugly 1980s bus-style lime green stripe is still there.

Someone needs to whack them round the head with a book on interior design. It's quite shocking that the Class 387 interior (a suburban EMU, remember) is superior in every way.

Perhaps they'll get a new coour scheme when they get refurbished goodness knows how many years in the future. The current interiors are just bland, cold and clinical - an operating theatre would be more welcoming.

 

[43096]

an utterly mediocre train with an utterly mediocre interior at an utterly outrageous price.

That, in a nutshell, sums up the Japanese Not-Wireds (also known as Super Hitachi Intercity Trains).

 

[Roast Veg]

It really oughtn't need difficult renegotiation at the time unless DfT have scored another own goal since...

And conversion may have had a date on it in the past, but since then the 9 car units have had engines inserted and the contract value has risen in correspondence. Does anyone remember what the plan was for the engines, were they to be sold back to Hitachi?

 

[TEW]

And they are still drab, boring grey. And that pig-ugly 1980s bus-style lime green stripe is still there.

Someone needs to whack them round the head with a book on interior design. It's quite shocking that the Class 387 interior (a suburban EMU, remember) is superior in every way.

Exactly that. Bizarrely more effort seems to have been put in to the toilets and vestibules, which look quite nice in the standard GWR scheme, than the actual seating area.

 

[bastien]

More likely so that the suspension characteristics don't change. That said, the design probably takes the possibility of future conversion into account.

Yes, I'm sure I recall locos having their steam heating equipment removed and replaced with ballast so as not to upset the balance.

 

[Goldfish62]

Keep the seat issues in the public eye...keep complaining about this.....something needs to be done. They should already be looking at making improvements to them or at least the fleet that hasnt been delivered yet. Negative publicity will put pressure on them to at least replace the seat bases with something more cushioned.

Unfortunately the seats are of such a poor design softer seat cushions will only slightly lessen the discomfort. Because the seats force you into unnaturally upright position the whole weight of your body ends up on the seat base with none of the weight distributed through the seat back. The only way to make the seats comfortable enough for long journeys is to replace them with something more suitable. It would mean a slight decrease in seating capacity, but that's probably a price worth paying for the overall comfort of the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately the seats are of such a poor design softer seat cushions will only slightly lessen the discomfort. Because the seats force you into unnaturally upright position the whole weight of your body ends up on the seat base with none of the weight distributed through the seat back. The only way to make the seats comfortable enough for long journeys is to replace them with something more suitable. It would mean a slight decrease in seating capacity, but that's probably a price worth paying for the overall comfort of the train.

The spacing is very generous, so you could probably replace them in the exact same layout with something like the HST seats (Grammer IC3000) without really annoying anyone. But to me it's not the uprightness that's the issue (I don't mind that), it's the shape of the cushion.

 

[spark001uk]

Are we closer to knowing when/where the first 9cars might go into service yet?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Unfortunately the seats are of such a poor design softer seat cushions will only slightly lessen the discomfort. Because the seats force you into unnaturally upright position the whole weight of your body ends up on the seat base with none of the weight distributed through the seat back. The only way to make the seats comfortable enough for long journeys is to replace them with something more suitable. It would mean a slight decrease in seating capacity, but that's probably a price worth paying for the overall comfort of the train.

I get less of a backache on the IETs than I do on the HSTs, believe it or not...

 

[D365]

Does anyone remember what the plan was for the engines, were they to be sold back to Hitachi?

Why Hitachi? The generator packs are leased from MTU.

 

[47802]

Basically my view as well - an utterly mediocre train with an utterly mediocre interior at an utterly outrageous price.

Just look at what TPE are getting (interior wise) if you want quality. Or Stadler. Or for a more traditional 125mph bi-mode I think Bombardier's product will knock spots off them.

I would not be at all upset if Hitachi got no further orders of any kind for the UK with the third-rate products they appear to be offering.

And what exactly will TPE be getting interior wise that is so superior? and presumably the TPE 802's will be getting a similar interior which kind of stuffs your argument?

There appears to be Zero information in the public domain with regard to the technical spec or costing of the Bombardier Bi-mode but yet you can confidently predict it will be far superior!

 

[swt_passenger]

I guess he's referring to the fact that the Mk3 and Mk4 DVTs contain just that so they are heavy enough in case of an accident not to go flying around all over the place. (Similar to the concrete block found in most washing machines in concept, I guess).

The driving carriages of IETs don’t have engines to remove, so not the answer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And what exactly will TPE be getting interior wise that is so superior? and presumably the TPE 802's will be getting a similar interior which kind of stuffs your argument?

I am not referring to the 802s, but the CAF units and LHCS.

What they will be getting that is superior is "any other kind of 2+2-width seat with armrests currently on the UK market". The renders contain CAF supplied seats which appear to be the same ones used on the NIR DMUs or similar, and if you look at the photos of the Mk5a coaches the seats you can see are too thick to be the Class 800 seat.

 

[IanXC]

And what exactly will TPE be getting interior wise that is so superior? and presumably the TPE 802's will be getting a similar interior which kind of stuffs your argument?

There appears to be Zero information in the public domain with regard to the technical spec or costing of the Bombardier Bi-mode but yet you can confidently predict it will be far superior!

Why do you presume that TPE's 802s will have a similar interior to these DfT specified ones?

I think the point is that these have been specified by TPE rather than by Civil Servants. I guess time will tell.

 

[Clip]

Keep the seat issues in the public eye...keep complaining about this.....something needs to be done. They should already be looking at making improvements to them or at least the fleet that hasnt been delivered yet. Negative publicity will put pressure on them to at least replace the seat bases with something more cushioned.

Has anyone actually had the thought that the seats may get a bit more give in them once they have been used a bit?

I really dont mind them and im wondering if people are just not used to such a big change from having sat in a HST for most of their commuting life so anything other than that would be 'simply awful'?

 

[47802]

Why do you presume that TPE's 802s will have a similar interior to these DfT specified ones?

I think the point is that these have been specified by TPE rather than by Civil Servants. I guess time will tell.

I'm presuming the TPE 802's will have the same interior as the CAF stock which makes a mockery of 'Bletchleyite' argument condemning the train based on the chosen interior, ''Bletchleyite' also makes the assumption that the TPE interior and seating in particular will be vastly superior to the current IET's which we don't really know at this stage and in any case is subjective.

'Bletchleyite' calls the train mediocre yet to me it seems like a very clever and flexible bi-mode train which is quieter than a Voyager and somewhat fortunately for the Dft and Notwork Rail can exceed its original design spec on Diesel.

'Bletchleyite' then goes on to say that Bombardier Bi-mode will likely be better than the IET despite the fact there appears to be no technical information available about this train. In any case Bombardier are not bidding for the IEP contract they are bidding for whatever is required for other contracts as indeed Hitachi may also do perhaps with a different specification 800 class train.

 

[ainsworth74]

Why do you presume that TPE's 802s will have a similar interior to these DfT specified ones?

I'm still waiting to see what Hull Trains come up with personally. I have high hopes for them. If they do go for a high spec interior than the DfT specified sets than it'll be interesting to see them side by side with VTECs!!

 

[Goldfish62]

Has anyone actually had the thought that the seats may get a bit more give in them once they have been used a bit?

I really dont mind them and im wondering if people are just not used to such a big change from having sat in a HST for most of their commuting life so anything other than that would be 'simply awful'?

It doesn't matter how much give there is in them. They're an unnatural shape. They're more upright than my office chair! Also, these are not commuter trains, they're supposed to be the pinnacle of long distance travel in the UK.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why Hitachi? The generator packs are leased from MTU.

The engines might be MTU but Agility Trains is still the supplier, and holds the DfT/TOC contract.