Northern Station Improvements & New Ticket Machines

[erk]

Which station is in the photos?

Flixton.
Contrary to what the signs say, I believe the penalty fares regime isn't applicable yet (does it start on Monday?). When it does I will try again to test Bantamzen's theory.
In the meantime I'm amazed that a user interface that invites users to insert cash into a non-existent slot was ever considered acceptable.

 

[Bantamzen]

Flixton.
Contrary to what the signs say, I believe the penalty fares regime isn't applicable yet (does it start on Monday?). When it does I will try again to test Bantamzen's theory.
In the meantime I'm amazed that a user interface that invites users to insert cash into a non-existent slot was ever considered acceptable.

I'll just say it isn't a theory, its what happened when Penalty Fares were introduced into the Aire & Wharfe lines in December. So I would imagine exactly the same process will be followed on the lines covered from tomorrow, i.e. you order a ticket as usual and once at the payment screen a cash option to print a Promise To Pay will be available.

 

[thejuggler]

I'll just say it isn't a theory, its what happened when Penalty Fares were introduced into the Aire & Wharfe lines in December. So I would imagine exactly the same process will be followed on the lines covered from tomorrow, i.e. you order a ticket as usual and once at the payment screen a cash option to print a Promise To Pay will be available.

That's exactly what has happened. Caldervale line ticket machines now have a 'promise to pay' option.

 

[Bantamzen]

That's exactly what has happened. Caldervale line ticket machines now have a 'promise to pay' option.

Ironically at Baildon (already a PF station) this morning the update that was applied may have broken the TVM there!! It was showing some message that a software script had fallen over, which I assume was a result of that update that will have been pushed out across their network. Oh well, as a developer I'm used to seeing these kind of things & it keeps us in work....

 

[robbeech]

There's a hole in the shelter on Platform 2 at Kiveton Bridge which 2 ducts for cabling already in place.

Will be interesting to see if they have machines on both platforms.

I wondered when this line would get them. Worksop already has 2 new ones which do not print properly and seem to have been quite unreliable up to now.
I do hope that kiveton Park (Not bridge) has one on both platforms. You can easily get stuck the wrong side of the barrier and miss the train if you’re not careful so delays crossing over to cross over again after ticket purchase will mean you need to be at the stations 15 minutes before the train which for a Small station is frankly poor. I might have a drive there now on my way home to see if there’s any sign.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

If not already reported, Hebden Bridge now has 4 machines - 2 on each Platform. The pair on the Leeds bound Platform are back to back, rather than side by side, and it isn't immediately obvious to persons entering the platform that there 2 machines rather than 1.

 

[erk]

Once the stations go live as Penalty Fare zones an additional cash option should be available at the normal payment screen, assuming the relevant software update is successfully applied overnight. ... Additionally TVMs that don't have cash options (and some do) should also display a Penalty Fare notice on a distinct yellow background to further remind passengers about the need to get a valid ticket or P2P prior to staring their journey.

Well, Flixton's TVM at least has updated as Bantamzen describes. It issues promise to pay cards and (some of the time) has the dramatic yellow penalty fares warning.

 

[Starmill]

I've noticed that the yellow box they have put on the screen for some reason covers over the text that was added to comply with the new ticket machine rules...

 

[johntea]

The update method in general seems a bit hit and miss for the new machines at the moment, wonder if a failed update is what takes them out of service sometimes (I've also come across a fair few now that have partially crashed showing a standard Windows 7 error message on the screen!).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I thought the old screens only had one line at the bottom to show subsequent services which alternate between showing the 2nd and 3rd service? Do the new screens not work like this?

The new screens are pretty much the same size as the old, they're just configured differently. Where the old ones had the "1st, 2nd, 3rd" labels these just have a box saying "Platform n" which is unnecessary because the housing around the screen also has this written on.
Yesterday, only the next service was listed, not the next 2.

If they're the same ones as I've seen on a few GWR stations yes they do. Is it just that there was no third service within half an hour? They are often configured not to show trains more than half an hour away to stop people getting confused by an occasional platform showing the next train which isn't for 12 hours or something.

That could be it, but it definitely threw me. I suppose that the platform in question (4a at Huddersfield) may be used less frequently after the coming timetable change. Also I'd have thought the next hour would be a better cut-off than the next half-hour.

Still, displaying the platform number on the screen seems redundant to me, particularly with the housings the screens are in at HUD.

 

[geoffk]

If not already reported, Hebden Bridge now has 4 machines - 2 on each Platform. The pair on the Leeds bound Platform are back to back, rather than side by side, and it isn't immediately obvious to persons entering the platform that there 2 machines rather than 1.

afaik, Mytholmroyd has only one TVM, on the Leeds-bound platform. It's a long walk between platforms if you're going towards Manchester and need to get a ticket first as there are steep ramps up both sides. Is this a valid reason for paying on the train?

 

[geoffk]

That's exactly what has happened. Caldervale line ticket machines now have a 'promise to pay' option.

But you have to go through the whole process of picking your destination and ticket type and only then do you get the option - card or no card. If you pick "no card" you then have to confirm you have the cash to pay. Only then can you opt for the "promise to pay" chitty.

 

[Starmill]

But you have to go through the whole process of picking your destination and ticket type and only then do you get the option - card or no card. If you pick "no card" you then have to confirm you have the cash to pay. Only then can you opt for the "promise to pay" chitty.

Indeed. To get one you have to select:
Buy a Ticket
Popular Destinations
Other Destinations
type in your destination and then select it
Choose a ticket type
Select a discount if appropriate
Press Confirm
Then Press "I do not have a payment card" (even if you do, but you don't want to use it e.g. because it would exceed your credit limt to)
Then read what it says about how you will get a Penalty Fare if you don't pay in cash then press Confirm again

That is a lot of steps given you then have to do it all over again when you want to actually buy your ticket. Regardless of which stations you choose the Promise to Pay looks the same. This all takes several minutes. Where a machine is provided on only one platform then it would take potentially 5 minutes to walk to the opposite platform, do all of that and then walk back, and that is only if there is no queue. Lots of stations on my route only have a machine on only platform, which I think is just crazy given that single machine is most of the time the only way to buy a ticket.

What is worse Northern have confirmed to me that even if you wish to use a card to buy a ticket that is not available from the machine, you have to tell the machine that you don't have a card anyway. The same applies if you wish to pay by any method other than cash. Frankly it makes very little sense to anyone to get a notice that says you are paying only in cash for a made up ticket that you did not want in the first place, and then to buy your ticket with a card anyway. But that is the procedure.

The worst thing about this is I have noticed at least one person who has gone to the ticket machine to just buy a ticket but then ended up selecting the promise to pay option instead of buying a ticket, encouraged by their friend who said that they should do that because they won't have to pay if they aren't checked, and if they are they will only have to pay the normal fare as long as they have cash.

 

[Bantamzen]

The reasons for the convoluted route to obtaining Promise To Pay has already been covered in this and other threads. The original option was a one-touch print. but this was abused at a number of stations and so the new process was introduced. And unless anyone can think of a better way to stop miscreants from emptying TVMs of their ticket stock then this is this best deterrent. And its hardly a hardship for passengers & once you've done it a couple of times doesn't take very long.

 

[northwichcat]

The reasons for the convoluted route to obtaining Promise To Pay has already been covered in this and other threads. The original option was a one-touch print. but this was abused at a number of stations and so the new process was introduced. And unless anyone can think of a better way to stop miscreants from emptying TVMs of their ticket stock then this is this best deterrent. And its hardly a hardship for passengers & once you've done it a couple of times doesn't take very long.

Is there a maximum number of tickets you can buy in one transaction? If not how does making it more complex to get a Promise To Pay notice help prevent people emptying out the ticket stock?

Regarding the bold part have passengers with learning disabilities been considered?

 

[Bantamzen]

Is there a maximum number of tickets you can buy in one transaction? If not how does making it more complex to get a Promise To Pay notice help prevent people emptying out the ticket stock?

Quite honestly I don't know if there is, but having the passenger go through the current process means you have to deliberately select a journey to reach the payment screen which hopefully would be enough to deter someone just hitting a single button & having a ticket spat out. Whether it works in the longer term remains to be seen.

Regarding the bold part have passengers with learning disabilities been considered?

The process for a P2P is exactly the same for card payments save the payment option. If someone with learning difficulties were unable to use it for card payments then the same problem would exist for P2Ps. In all honesty I don't know if provision is made for them. I would hope staff would deal with each situation on merit.

 

[northwichcat]

Quite honestly I don't know if there is, but having the passenger go through the current process means you have to deliberately select a journey to reach the payment screen which hopefully would be enough to deter someone just hitting a single button & having a ticket spat out. Whether it works in the longer term remains to be seen.

The process for a P2P is exactly the same for card payments save the payment option. If someone with learning difficulties were unable to use it for card payments then the same problem would exist for P2Ps. In all honesty I don't know if provision is made for them. I would hope staff would deal with each situation on merit.

The P2P follows an illogical process. It asks for exactly what type of ticket you want, doesn't let you purchase one and doesn't even print what type of ticket you told the machine you want on the P2P, meaning you then have to start the process of buying a ticket all over again either on board or at your destination with a staff member. For someone with a learning disability that's adding a barrier to travel, rather than removing barriers to travel. It should be remembered not all people with learning disabilities are obvious to staff and they won't all feel comfortable disclosing they have a disability.

An alternative could be the home screen has 3 options - TOD, purchase a ticket using a card, purchase a ticket using cash. Then if the 3rd option is selected you are asked to enter your name and afterwards a personalised P2P is printed and instructions are displayed on screen about what you need to do to acquire a ticket.

 

[Bantamzen]

The P2P follows an illogical process. It asks for exactly what type of ticket you want, doesn't let you purchase one and doesn't even print what type of ticket you told the machine you want on the P2P, meaning you then have to start the process of buying a ticket all over again either on board or at your destination with a staff member. For someone with a learning disability that's adding a barrier to travel, rather than removing barriers to travel. It should be remembered not all people with learning disabilities are obvious to staff and they won't all feel comfortable disclosing they have a disability.

An alternative could be the home screen has 3 options - TOD, purchase a ticket using a card, purchase a ticket using cash. Then if the 3rd option is selected you are asked to enter your name and afterwards a personalised P2P is printed and instructions are displayed on screen about what you need to do to acquire a ticket.

I agree its not the best and certainly convoluted, and whilst your idea is a good one it might still only require a couple of presses with the name "A" entered to quickly start to empty the machine. My idea would be the passenger requests the required ticket as now, but when the P2P is printed it also displays the starting point & destination, but omits the price, validity & something along the lines of "To be exchanged for a full valid ticket" or similar so that it is clear that it is not a valid ticket but simply a voucher to allow purchase on-board.

Just thinking about people with learning disabilities, is there, or could there be a pass that allowed them not to have to use the TVMs where they are the only method of payment and pay on-board? Just a thought?

 

[northwichcat]

Just thinking about people with learning disabilities, is there, or could there be a pass that allowed them not to have to use the TVMs where they are the only method of payment and pay on-board? Just a thought?

That would be very complex to do. What conditions would qualify and what proof would be needed? For example, are you going to allow the results of an educational assessment done when the person was at school to count as evidence (which might be the only documented proof some have) or are you going to require assessments to be done, in which case who is going to pay for them?

 

[Bantamzen]

That would be very complex to do. What conditions would qualify and what proof would be needed? For example, are you going to allow the results of an educational assessment done when the person was at school to count as evidence (which might be the only documented proof some have) or are you going to require assessments to be done, in which case who is going to pay for them?

It was just a query more than a suggestion, I'm not proposing to start up a new scheme, I just wondered if they might be covered by existing ones? To be honest, and this will sound a bit heartless, but there are lots of places & situations where people with learning difficulties might struggle with technology, and although retailers should do as much as possible to help it may not always be possible for everyone. The TVMs do have a assistance button, so using that for help might be an option although it does sound like this is far from perfect at the moment, probably because the help point just goes through to a generic call centre rather than a specifically Northern manned on. So again in situations like these, and again at the risk of sounding heartless, maybe anyone in this situation should either seek help from another passenger if any are around or simply explain to the guard once on-board.

 

[JaJaWa]

Just thinking about people with learning disabilities, is there, or could there be a pass that allowed them not to have to use the TVMs where they are the only method of payment and pay on-board? Just a thought?

That would be very complex to do. What conditions would qualify and what proof would be needed? For example, are you going to allow the results of an educational assessment done when the person was at school to count as evidence (which might be the only documented proof some have) or are you going to require assessments to be done, in which case who is going to pay for them?

This is exactly what a Disabled Persons Railcard does:

6: Tickets for your journey should be purchased before boarding the train. When buying tickets in person from a member of staff, you must show your valid Railcard. If you are buying tickets online or from a ticket machine you must declare that you have a valid Railcard by selecting the Disabled Persons Railcard option. This does not apply if:

• there was no ticket office at the station at which you began your journey or if the ticket office was closed, and
• there was no working ticket machines from which you could buy discounted tickets, or
• you have a disability which prevented you accessing ticket retailing facilities

In these cases you will be able to use your Railcard on train or at your destination.

 

[northwichcat]

It was just a query more than a suggestion, I'm not proposing to start up a new scheme, I just wondered if they might be covered by existing ones? To be honest, and this will sound a bit heartless, but there are lots of places & situations where people with learning difficulties might struggle with technology, and although retailers should do as much as possible to help it may not always be possible for everyone. The TVMs do have a assistance button, so using that for help might be an option although it does sound like this is far from perfect at the moment, probably because the help point just goes through to a generic call centre rather than a specifically Northern manned on. So again in situations like these, and again at the risk of sounding heartless, maybe anyone in this situation should either seek help from another passenger if any are around or simply explain to the guard once on-board.

I think you misunderstand. I'm not saying they all need someone to assist them, I'm saying it's making the process of buying a ticket more difficult for those who don't find it as easy as most people. There's different learning disabilities and in a school exam environment one person might need someone to actually read the questions to them but it would be more common to find someone who didn't need that level of assistance but was given 2 hours 20 to complete an exam which most people were given 2 hours due to their disability.

Some with certain learning disabilities might actually prefer to make a transaction with a screen than an actual person. For example, you don't need to ask a TVM to repeat the ticket restrictions, you can just read them again before pressing OK/continue etc.

 

[northwichcat]

This is exactly what a Disabled Persons Railcard does:

A specific learning disability like dyslexia or a short term memory processing issue doesn't qualify you for a disabled railcard but may make purchasing a ticket more difficult.

 

[Bantamzen]

This is exactly what a Disabled Persons Railcard does:

That might be an option for those that qualify, but it is possible that currently some people with learning disabilities would not qualify. I wonder how practicable it would be to extend this to them without the issues that jcollins mentions?

I think you misunderstand. I'm not saying they all need someone to assist them, I'm saying it's making the process of buying a ticket more difficult for those who don't find it as easy as most people. There's different learning disabilities and in a school exam environment one person might need someone to actually read the questions to them but it would be more common to find someone who didn't need that level of assistance but was given 2 hours 20 to complete an exam which most people were given 2 hours due to their disability.

Some with certain learning disabilities might actually prefer to make a transaction with a screen than an actual person. For example, you don't need to ask a TVM to repeat the ticket restrictions, you can just read them again before pressing OK/continue etc.

I see where you are coming from, its is very unfortunate that the actions of some mindless idiots results in processes like these becoming more complex. I think in response to your earlier thoughts I'd say that perhaps a P2P that carries all the requested ticket details, a QR code & some phrase to state that it must be exchanged for a valid ticket on it when printed. Then guards, RPs etc should have a QR readable device that can produce the ticket without the passenger having to repeat their requirements. In all honesty though this would work much better if all TOCs where required to have the same processes, QR readers etc, and even better if smartcard technology was used. But any kind of unification of methodology is a long way off sadly.

 

[xotGD]

Indeed. To get one you have to select:
...

The worst thing about this is I have noticed at least one person who has gone to the ticket machine to just buy a ticket but then ended up selecting the promise to pay option instead of buying a ticket, encouraged by their friend who said that they should do that because they won't have to pay if they aren't checked, and if they are they will only have to pay the normal fare as long as they have cash.

That person's friend is a very shrewd cookie. They'll go far as a financial consultant!

 

[Bantamzen]

That person's friend is a very shrewd cookie. They'll go far as a financial consultant!

I wonder if the same would work where Permit To Travel tickets are available. Don't bother buying in advance, just put a few pence in a machine & hope not to get checked. Who knew.....??

 

[northwichcat]

I wonder if the same would work where Permit To Travel tickets are available. Don't bother buying in advance, just put a few pence in a machine & hope not to get checked. Who knew.....??

At least you had to put something in the box. A few pence at least covers the cost of printing the ticket, whereas if someone gets a permit to travel and there's no ticket checks the TOC have made a small loss.

Out of interest how does the Permit To Travel work at stations with a ticket office but where the ticket office isn't open from first to last train? Can a Permit To Travel only be obtained at certain times and can those times be updated if the ticket office doesn't open or close as scheduled for whatever reason?

 

[Bantamzen]

At least you had to put something in the box. A few pence at least covers the cost of printing the ticket, whereas if someone gets a permit to travel and there's no ticket checks the TOC have made a small loss.

Its much more of a loss if several hundred P2Ps are printed then strewn across the platform as I observed one morning before the system was changed! But one way or another this highlights the need for TOCs to have more trained staff (not contracted-in) on-board to check tickets & sell where necessary. Very occasionally this has happened on some peak services such as Doncaster - Leeds, and oddly enough earlier this week on a Bradford FS - Ilkley!

Out of interest how does the Permit To Travel work at stations with a ticket office but where the ticket office isn't open from first to last train? Can a Permit To Travel only be obtained at certain times and can those times be updated if the ticket office doesn't open or close as scheduled for whatever reason?

To be honest it has been many, many years since I've used a PTT or even seen a machine capable of printing them, so I couldn't answer that one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With the old PERTIS machines ticket office staff turned them on and off when they booked off/on, I recall.

 

[Starmill]

At least you had to put something in the box. A few pence at least covers the cost of printing the ticket, whereas if someone gets a permit to travel and there's no ticket checks the TOC have made a small loss.

A large loss if someone has got a Promise to Pay and then there is no check, where previously they would have simply bought a ticket...

Permit to Travel machines were installed at stations that didn't have ticket machines and only available when the ticket office was closed. They would be deactivated when the ticket office was open. Later, if a ticket machine was installed, the Permit to Travel machine was almost always moved or deactivated.

If it was possible to buy a ticket, it wasn't possible to dispense a Permit to Travel. So any comparison between those and the scheme Northern have invented is impossible. Actual PERTIS machines would be enforcable in law, unlike a promise to pay notice, and they would be far more effective anyway.