Arriva Rail North DOO

[woodmally]

So when will the next strike be? Since we have no more bank holidays coming up.

 

[YorkshireLad]

I'd imagine there'll be one around the time of the world cup.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Hopefully never again (not the first time I've written that in this thread!) but it won't be before at least mid-June as AFAIK they need to give the public ten working days' notice?

 

[kw12]

Hopefully never again (not the first time I've written that in this thread!) but it won't be before at least mid-June as AFAIK they need to give the public ten working days' notice?

I wonder however many strikes have taken place since you first wrote that in this thread. Perhaps this time the RMT will agree to attend talks instead of calling more strikes ... or perhaps they will do what they have done with SWR, i.e. call some more strikes and then agree to suspend those strikes and take part in talks.

 

[woodmally]

I wonder however many strikes have taken place since you first wrote that in this thread. Perhaps this time the RMT will agree to attend talks instead of calling more strikes ... or perhaps they will do what they have done with SWR, i.e. call some more strikes and then agree to suspend those strikes and take part in talks.

Northern wont talk with them. Reason being is simple there is nothing to talk about. Northern have it written into the agreement to have DOO. They cant overturn the contract. RMT wont accept anything less than conductors on all trains. Either RMT accept DOO will happen or strike till it does.

 

[Towielad]

And after 2 years of striking on Southern the RMT have got where exactly? They have been part of DOO operation for years and their “members” have taken the very handsome salaries that go with that acceptance so why now.... dwindling RMT memberships figures? Reduce member fees? It is certainly naff all to with safety after all a Merseyrail train with a guard saw a passenger killed so that’s a compete load of twaddle.

The financial cost to Northern staff must be mounting up and with no end in sight is liable to lighten their pay for a fair time to come, so in. 2 years time how much will they have lost and how much will they have gained from the strikes, I’ll have a £10 bet with anyone now that the former will be greater than the latter!

 

[woodmally]

And after 2 years of striking on Southern the RMT have got where exactly? They have been part of DOO operation for years and their “members” have taken the very handsome salaries that go with that acceptance so why now.... dwindling RMT memberships figures? Reduce member fees? It is certainly naff all to with safety after all a Merseyrail train with a guard saw a passenger killed so that’s a compete load of twaddle.

The financial cost to Northern staff must be mounting up and with no end in sight is liable to lighten their pay for a fair time to come, so in. 2 years time how much will they have lost and how much will they have gained from the strikes, I’ll have a £10 bet with anyone now that the former will be greater than the latter!

I agree the former is greater than the latter. However costs to Northern Staff arnt mounting up. For three very specific reasons. 1) They never strike on the same day so the odds that someone was striking for every day that they have been on strike for what 20 days now over two years isnt that great. 2) Even if that was the case they have been striking one maybe two days a month. Three at the very most. Most months its only been one day. Yes its a pay cut but people can absorb it into their wage usually. 3) This one is a guess please correct me if I'm wrong. They cant claim overtime when they are striking but I'm sure there is extra shifts and overtime available for the weeks they are not to make up the packet. Even if my guess at number 3 is not the case for the other two they can afford to strike at this level. Thats why its continuing.

 

[Dave1987]

More trolling on this thread. Isn’t it time it was locked?

 

[Clip]

More trolling on this thread. Isn’t it time it was locked?

Are people not allowed to have their say then if it differs from yours?

 

[Bletchleyite]

More trolling on this thread. Isn’t it time it was locked?

No. If it was, DOO discussion will end up all over every other thread, it's better in one place. If it annoys you so much, don't read it.

And saying things with a basis behind them that you disagree with is not "trolling".

 

[Dave1987]

No. If it was, DOO discussion will end up all over every other thread, it's better in one place. If it annoys you so much, don't read it.

And saying things with a basis behind them that you disagree with is not "trolling".

The posts are clearly having a ‘dig’ at guards and the RMT. It seems that only one side of the argument are allowed to troll the other then because the other side get rather sensitive when trolling takes place.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

It’ll just be a repeat of the Southern fiasco and won’t come to a head until the new trains are introduced along with the DOO that goes with it. No doubt ASLEF will get their hefty pay rise and they’ll be a second person agreement in place.

The RMT isn’t going to give in and can you blame them they’ve got numerous identical disputes and if they give in they are admitting defeat. Look at Southern the changes have been implemented there is a second person on the trains, customers are praising the staff etc etc yet officially they are still in dispute.

 

[geoffk]

The posts are clearly having a ‘dig’ at guards and the RMT. It seems that only one side of the argument are allowed to troll the other then because the other side get rather sensitive when trolling takes place.

I'll have a dig at the DfT then and say this is all their doing, and they are more than happy to hide behind the train companies, who won't bite the hand that feeds them. But is the Scotrail agreement not a possible basis for a solution?

 

[Clip]

The posts are clearly having a ‘dig’ at guards and the RMT. It seems that only one side of the argument are allowed to troll the other then because the other side get rather sensitive when trolling takes place.

you appear to be the sensitive one when people poat their point of view that you dont agree with and then you claim theyre trolling and are suddenly acting all hurt about it as if you are not allowed to poat your point of view, which , you have done freely yet i dont remember anyone accuae you of trolling.

 

[virgintrain1]

Working for a intercity TOC in the south west I have had very few experiences of being on a DOO train and struggle to see how certain situations are dealt with. So if anyone can explain please do.

I have been involved in 3 fatalities in which meant the train was significantly disrupted. The drivers were very shaken up and we the train crew dealt with a full train load of disrupted passengers, giving info taking details and liaising with control. 1 involved a lot of PTS and the guard was required to check the train and track. How is a single driver meant to provide this? As some drivers would be almost incapacitated by an incident like this are passengers left in the dark?

I have removed drunk and violent passengers assisted passengers at unstaffed/short-staffed stations. Had passengers have metal health related breakdowns ect.
How does the driver keep exit doors and ailes clear of obstructions bikes and pushchairs ect.
During temporary block workings the driver has a enough to worry about rather than passengers connections ect due to our 4 hour delay. We have seen in the news where passengers have has enough and decided to self evacuate.

I just can’t see how any passenger would want a DOO train by choice. I appreciate in rural areas a staffed station is a lot harder to come by than a train in the south east stopping at staffed stations regularly.

Having a voyager style working seems the ideal solution always has a 2nd member of safety critical member of staff.

The railway has some of the best T&C’s left which shows how having a strong union and solidarity can pay off and how non railway worker should take note of how the RMT has retained these. (Which the Tories must hate)
I personally feel the south east has a different rail culture to other parts of the UK with many staff being fairly new to the industry. Where as other TOCs have depots in other parts of the country where the majority of the staff that have been there the whole lives since BR.

 

[kw12]

I agree the former is greater than the latter. However costs to Northern Staff arnt mounting up. For three very specific reasons. 1) They never strike on the same day so the odds that someone was striking for every day that they have been on strike for what 20 days now over two years isnt that great. 2) Even if that was the case they have been striking one maybe two days a month. Three at the very most. Most months its only been one day. Yes its a pay cut but people can absorb it into their wage usually. 3) This one is a guess please correct me if I'm wrong. They cant claim overtime when they are striking but I'm sure there is extra shifts and overtime available for the weeks they are not to make up the packet. Even if my guess at number 3 is not the case for the other two they can afford to strike at this level. Thats why its continuing.

For (3), there will be a finite amout of extra shifts and overtime available across the set of guards at a depot. Unless I've missed something, that overall amount available will be the same now (on non-strike days) as it was before the strikes started. Thus, while some staff members may chose and have been able to do more extra shifts and overtime than they would otherwise have done this would have resulted in some of their colleagues doing less extra shifts and ovetime than they would have otherwise have done. The latter guards would thus have seen a cut in their take home pay as a result, in addition to the pay cut for the strike days.

 

[Carlisle]

The railway has some of the best T&C’s left which shows how having a strong union and solidarity can pay off and how non railway worker should take note of how the RMT has retained these. (Which the Tories must hate)

Aren’t you rather simplistically comparing a government underwriten TOC employee, to one in the commercial sector who clearly has to take account of their respective competition before embarking on a lengthy dispute, if they want to guarantee the same job at the end of it .

 

[Robertj21a]

More trolling on this thread. Isn’t it time it was locked?

What on earth are you talking about this time?.
It's a forum for discussion, not a convenient outlet for you to just spout your biased opinions. If you don't like things that don't suit you then don't read them.

 

[woodmally]

The posts are clearly having a ‘dig’ at guards and the RMT. It seems that only one side of the argument are allowed to troll the other then because the other side get rather sensitive when trolling takes place.

We are not having a dig at the guards but simply discussing the group that is responsible for this problem. If they wern't striking we would not have these pages and pages of discussion.

DFT have stated DOO is safe and are not budging. The passengers are powerless we just want the guards to get back to work and get from a to b and like me find DOO perfectly safe. In fact its functioning perfectly fine on other parts of the rail network. Northern have to accept DOO as part of the agreement they signed with the DFT. Hence the only people who can change anything are the guards. They can finally accept DOO is happening and get back to work and negotiate with Northern on the new role. As there still will be a new role as the jobs have been guaranteed.

Now if you are a guard then consider this. If I am wrong and there is a chance DOO can be overturned with strikes then why are you complaining about "trolling" just wait till its been overturned and celebrate. If however my argument carries weight then maybe go back to your RMT overlords and try to change their minds. As currently no one is winning in this situation.

 

[virgintrain1]

We are not having a dig at the guards but simply discussing the group that is responsible for this problem. If they wern't striking we would not have these pages and pages of discussion.

DFT have stated DOO is safe and are not budging. The passengers are powerless we just want the guards to get back to work and get from a to b and like me find DOO perfectly safe. In fact its functioning perfectly fine on other parts of the rail network. Northern have to accept DOO as part of the agreement they signed with the DFT. Hence the only people who can change anything are the guards. They can finally accept DOO is happening and get back to work and negotiate with Northern on the new role. As there still will be a new role as the jobs have been guaranteed.

Now if you are a guard then consider this. If I am wrong and there is a chance DOO can be overturned with strikes then why are you complaining about "trolling" just wait till its been overturned and celebrate. If however my argument carries weight then maybe go back to your RMT overlords and try to change their minds. As currently no one is winning in this situation.

Or you could point the finger at the DfT being responsible for the problem!

 

[woodmally]

Or you could point the finger at the DfT being responsible for the problem!

Given DFT have found DOO safe why should I. Also it isn't just DFT. We have DOO in operation on some lines already and the unions agreed to it.

 

[Robertj21a]

Given DFT have found DOO safe why should I. Also it isn't just DFT. We have DOO in operation on some lines already and the unions agreed to it.

Rather notably the 12-coach Thameslink through the heart of London !

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rather notably the 12-coach Thameslink through the heart of London !

In one sense the bit through the core is guard-only operated, it's just that the guard sits at the front (and becomes a driver at the outer ends)

 

[Robertj21a]

In one sense the bit through the core is guard-only operated, it's just that the guard sits at the front (and becomes a driver at the outer ends)

Quite. Definitely only one person operated (driver or guard !) for very many years now.

 

[pompeyfan]

Given DFT have found DOO safe why should I. Also it isn't just DFT. We have DOO in operation on some lines already and the unions agreed to it.

The DfT also say that this is about modernising the Railway, it’s not, it’s about smashing the unions, it’s about trying to increase profits and it’s about sticking two fingers up to disabled people along the way.

DCO is all well and good while the 2nd member of staff is able to make the train, but the moment disruption occurs the passengers are on their own, at the time they need someone the most.

Also, does it not make you feel more comfortable that there’s someone there to assist the driver in the multitude of incidents that happen, with suitable training to deal with most events? An OBS is currently just a ticket sales person that can (just about) check connections on their smart phone. I know multiple guards that have got down to the track to deal with all manner of incidents.

 

[Bromley boy]

In one sense the bit through the core is guard-only operated, it's just that the guard sits at the front (and becomes a driver at the outer ends)

It’s rather different to that since the TL core will require a qualified driver at the controls throughout, even when ATO goes live. I’m sure you’re fully aware of that, despite that somewhat loaded comment.

I know you and others on here aspire to minimal staffing and “guard only operation” autonomous trains. Let’s see how that goes over the next few decades given that even the tube isn’t approaching driverless yet and unlikely to for quite some time. Many years, in fact. HS2 hasn’t even been built yet, but will still have drivers (and hopefully a second person on board, even if only an OBS or similar) ...

I suspect you and I, as 30 somethings now, will both be geriatric, or 6 feet under by the time autonomous mainline trains are in mainstream use. Should I remain in this job long term I fully expect to be able to take an autonomous car to work in future (not that I want one of those) in order to drive a train under ATO or, most likely, still manually.

Mark my words .

 

[Robertj21a]

It’s rather different to that since the TL core will require a qualified driver at the controls throughout, even when ATO goes live. I’m sure you’re fully aware of that, despite that somewhat loaded comment.

I know you and others on here aspire to minimal staffing and “guard only operation” autonomous trains. Let’s see how that goes over the next few decades given that even the tube isn’t approaching driverless yet and unlikely to for quite some time. Many years, in fact. HS2 hasn’t even been built yet, but will still have drivers (and hopefully a second person on board, even if only an OBS or similar) ...

I suspect you and I, as 30 somethings now, will both be geriatric, or 6 feet under by the time autonomous mainline trains are in mainstream use. Should I remain in this job long term I fully expect to be able to take an autonomous car to work in future (not that I want one of those) in order to drive a train under ATO or, most likely, still manually.

Mark my words .

As I'm sure you appreciate, the Guard Only (GOO ?) was tongue in cheek. Perhaps for work during the Core they should just be Custodians (COO) or Motormen (.......

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I'm sure you appreciate, the Guard Only (GOO ?) was tongue in cheek. Perhaps for work during the Core they should just be Custodians (COO) or Motormen (.......

Yeah, it was a bit tongue in cheek based on what an ATO driver mostly does (even if my views that actual DLR-style "GOO" is the future are well known).

 

[OxtedSignaller]

The DfT also say that this is about modernising the Railway, it’s not, it’s about smashing the unions, it’s about trying to increase profits and it’s about sticking two fingers up to disabled people along the way.

DCO is all well and good while the 2nd member of staff is able to make the train, but the moment disruption occurs the passengers are on their own, at the time they need someone the most.

Also, does it not make you feel more comfortable that there’s someone there to assist the driver in the multitude of incidents that happen, with suitable training to deal with most events? An OBS is currently just a ticket sales person that can (just about) check connections on their smart phone. I know multiple guards that have got down to the track to deal with all manner of incidents.

Quite right but I’m afraid that the RMT hasn’t helped situations. They have also left their OBS members on their own when they needed them a union the most. Letting ASLEF negotiate a deal which quite frankly sold them out to dry, lost them numerous T&Cs etc etc. I know OBS Who have volunteered to retain their PTS training and so on but nope they are not allowed, evacuation training which was promised has been delayed etc etc. The RMT hasn’t called the members out but is then making no efforts to negotiate and put the whole dispute to bed.

The RMT has shown their true colours I’m afraid they pride themselves on being a general grades union but all they are interested in is representing guards and a very very small minority of drivers. I think everyone’s fears regarding the future of On Board staff has been realised as nobody seems interested in representing them.

 

[pompeyfan]

Quite right but I’m afraid that the RMT hasn’t helped situations. They have also left their OBS members on their own when they needed them a union the most. Letting ASLEF negotiate a deal which quite frankly sold them out to dry, lost them numerous T&Cs etc etc. I know OBS Who have volunteered to retain their PTS training and so on but nope they are not allowed, evacuation training which was promised has been delayed etc etc. The RMT hasn’t called the members out but is then making no efforts to negotiate and put the whole dispute to bed.

The RMT has shown their true colours I’m afraid they pride themselves on being a general grades union but all they are interested in is representing guards and a very very small minority of drivers. I think everyone’s fears regarding the future of On Board staff has been realised as nobody seems interested in representing them.

I can’t argue at all with any of that. You’ve got it spot on, however, as I’ve said before, the moment the RMT officially recognise the OBS grade, they give the DfT sufficient rope to hang themselves (the RMT). The DfT will say to them “you’ve accepted OBS on X franchise, you’ve got no reason not to accept it on Y, Z and A franchises”

That said there is no coming back from the setup on Southern for the RMT and it’s members.