Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

[Robertj21a]

Anyone able to estimate how many 'trains' are actually required at peak times to run the new frequencies on the 3 'tram' lines ?

 

[ainsworth74]

Please note discussion about the future of the Class 175s after they finish with the Wales & Boarders franchise can now be found it's own thread here. Let's keep that interesting piece of speculation out of this thread so we can focus on rolling stock developments that have already been announced.

Thanks,
ainsworth74

 

[Gareth Marston]

Anyone able to estimate how many 'trains' are actually required at peak times to run the new frequencies on the 3 'tram' lines ?

Currently the Heads of the Valleys are just on an hour or just over it from Central so a round trip is currently two and quarter hours. They want 4 tph so divide by 15 minutes and you need 9 diagrams on each of the 3 "arms" That's 27 units in action for off peak. If you got times down to 2 hour round trips 24 units, 1 and three quarter 21 units etc.

The rolling stock infographic shows c 100 Metro Vehicles.

 

[Domh245]

The rolling stock infographic shows c 100 Metro Vehicles.

Based on what you've said, and existing citylinks, we are probably looking at ~30x 3 car units

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Apologies if this is not new info, but I've finally found the presentation about the fleet plans, on the KeolisAmey web site:
http://www.keolisamey.cymru/media/1046/ams-wb-overview-presentation.pdf
The fleet details are at P15 et seq.

New Trains:
CAF Civity DMU: 51x2-car, 26x3-car, based at Chester/Machynlleth
Stadler Flirt DEMU (Metro): 7x4-car, Canton
Stadler Flirt Tri-Mode MU (Rhymney): 7x3-car, 17x4-car, Canton
Stadler Citylink Metro Vehicles (Treherbert, Aberdare, Merthyr): 36x3-car, MV depot (Radyr?)

Despite the clear naming of the suppliers in the TfW presentation, there's nothing yet on either CAF or Stadler web sites about orders for W&B.

Other trains:
class 769: 5x4-car, Canton
class 153: 5x1-car (ex-GWR), Canton
class 170: 8x3-car, 4x2-car (ex GA), Canton
class 230: 5x3-car, Chester/Wrexham
Mk4: 3x4-car plus DVT (ex-LNER), Canton [nothing about locos for the MK4s].

There's also a lot of other information about the franchise operation, including renders of the 230 interior (p23).
Some details of the station upgrades are listed.
The render of the Civity shows "Cymru a'r Gororau/Wales & Borders" branding near the doors.

The Civity fleet will be significantly larger than the combined 175/158 fleet, at 180 vehicles versus 118.
It's just a pity there are so many 2-car units.
Chester-Manchester will be seeing both Northern's and W&B's Civitys on the route.

By the way "WCB" = Wales & Cross Borders, "CVL" = Core Valley Lines

 

[Robertj21a]

Based on what you've said, and existing citylinks, we are probably looking at ~30x 3 car units

Good one !. Thanks. Seemingly 36 x 3 according to the subsequent post. Looks a good healthy number for reliable operation through peak hours, plus sensible % of spares.

 

[47421]

Good spot, interesting presentation. P18 seems to confirm Holyhead and Aber services will continue Shrewsbury to International as now. Lots of info on Valley line frequencies etc on p31-34

 

[td97]

5x 153s to transfer from GWR in May 19
8x 3-car, 4x 2-car 170s to transfer from Greater Anglia 'late 19'

 

[ainsworth74]

CAF Civity DMU: 51x2-car, 26x3-car, based at Chester/Machynlleth

There are as many three car CAF Civity DMUs as there are currently 175s (well 26 Civity vs 27 175s). That suggests to me that we may well see the three car units focused on the long distance stuff (with first class) running around over the busiest sections with a two car Civity make a five car train. My guess is that outside of disruption and the quietest times of day (I can't imagine many of the departures from Manchester are usually that busy after 1900ish outside of maybe Fridays/events/etc). I suppose the big question now will be if they have gangways. It's very annoying, in my opinion to have two/three car trains running around regularly coupled that don't have gangways.

 

[OrangeJuice]

CAF Civity DMU: 51x2-car, 26x3-car, based at Chester/Machynlleth
Stadler Flirt DEMU (Metro): 7x4-car, Canton
Stadler Flirt Tri-Mode MU (Rhymney): 7x3-car, 17x4-car, Canton
Stadler Citylink Metro Vehicles (Treherbert, Aberdare, Merthyr): 36x3-car, MV depot (Radyr?)

I think the 50% Welsh built must be by train rather than vehicles as Stadler will overall be building a lot more vehicles (including the south Wales DEMU's according to the pdf) as they have longer 3/4 car formations rather than CAF's 2/3 car DMU's

 

[47421]

Currently the Heads of the Valleys are just on an hour or just over it from Central

p34 of the presentation shows some significant journey time reductions to Queen St. Treherbert 57m - 46, Aberdare 57 -42, Merthyr 56 - 44, Rhymney - Central 61 - 48. Pretty impressive, particularly as the trend in many parts of country is for slower journeys as dwell times increase and general congestion results in slower running.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What doesn't seem clear is what will operate the Conwy Valley - surely not a Civity? There aren't enough 230s to put one there - you need 5 for a half hourly service on the Borderlands (notably this means no spare).

EDIT: The presentation says one fast one slow, which could be done with 4 units, so the 5th for the Valley?

It occurs to me that it would probably make sense to order 2 more 3-car 230s - one for the Valley and one for a spare. Or possibly even 3 more to allow a two-unit service on the Valley if ever justified.

The CAF unit interior looks very high quality including what appear to be Grammer IC3000 seats (per the present 158s).

Edit: wow, even looks like IC3000s in the trams! The 230s look to be LU spec but with tables added to the facing bays, though, definitely a basic option.

 

[PR1Berske]

The render of the Civity shows "Cymru a'r Gororau/Wales & Borders" branding near the doors.

Cannot wait to hear that in full from a manual announcer, I tell you that.

 

[Domh245]

The metro DEMU is an interesting one - where are they planning to use that?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The metro DEMU is an interesting one - where are they planning to use that?

Vale, Maesteg, Ebbw Vale, Abergavenny?
Maybe not Vale, as it's on the "Central Metro" page (p31).
Nor is there anything about an Abergavenny turnback, which I thought was on the cards for a 2tph service.
But it does say Newport-Shrewsbury resignalling, so it might be in there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Much as I don't mind 230s, can anyone see enough shouting about "old Tube trains" from North Wales (who do have a bit of a thing about Cardiff looking after their own) that they might just lob a couple more FLIRTs on the order and keep it hourly?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Much as I don't mind 230s, can anyone see enough shouting about "old Tube trains" from North Wales (who do have a bit of a thing about Cardiff looking after their own) that they might just lob a couple more FLIRTs on the order and keep it hourly?

The line has had a diet of battered Pacers, 153s and 150s since BR, and has a speed limit of 60mph (in places).
So well-refurbished 3-car 230s might well be seen as an improvement.
It's a good way of testing the market without spending a fortune on questionable electrification.
I suspect there will be a lot of fresh air carted about initially.
My worry is that they will let them loose on the 90mph main lines on a bad day!

 

[47421]

p38 "15 sites where track is re-doubled". Anyone know where? (Perhaps we need a new thread infrastructure thread for this and electrification discussion)

 

[Robertj21a]

p34 of the presentation shows some significant journey time reductions to Queen St. Treherbert 57m - 46, Aberdare 57 -42, Merthyr 56 - 44, Rhymney - Central 61 - 48. Pretty impressive, particularly as the trend in many parts of country is for slower journeys as dwell times increase and general congestion results in slower running.

Excellent - faster and smoother running, with proper, modern facilities. Also some potential for later extensions etc etc

 

[krus_aragon]

Much as I don't mind 230s, can anyone see enough shouting about "old Tube trains" from North Wales (who do have a bit of a thing about Cardiff looking after their own) that they might just lob a couple more FLIRTs on the order and keep it hourly?

If they double the service frequency when they're introduced (as opposed to upping the frequency sometime later) then I think most people will choose not to look a gift horse in the mouth.

 

[krus_aragon]

The metro DEMU is an interesting one - where are they planning to use that?

I expect they'll be on an assortment of Maesteg, Ebbw Vale, Swanline and possibly Cheltenham services, depending on how far eleven sets will stretch. In short, the areas that would probably have had bi-modes if SWML electrification hadn't been cancelled.

 

[jw]

I can't quite work out where the 170s to be cascaded from Anglia are to be deployed. The website yesterday suggested 2 car 170s for the Heart of Wales line, so are the additional 170s only staying until the Stadler tri-modes are delivered?

 

[507021]

I've travelled on them many a time, never been on one that's failed in service and yes they are extremely comfortable.

Agree with this, I really like the 175s. I think they're excellent units.

 

[507021]

Apologies if this is not new info, but I've finally found the presentation about the fleet plans, on the KeolisAmey web site:
http://www.keolisamey.cymru/media/1046/ams-wb-overview-presentation.pdf
The fleet details are at P15 et seq.

New Trains:
CAF Civity DMU: 51x2-car, 26x3-car, based at Chester/Machynlleth
Stadler Flirt DEMU (Metro): 7x4-car, Canton
Stadler Flirt Tri-Mode MU (Rhymney): 7x3-car, 17x4-car, Canton
Stadler Citylink Metro Vehicles (Treherbert, Aberdare, Merthyr): 36x3-car, MV depot (Radyr?)

Despite the clear naming of the suppliers in the TfW presentation, there's nothing yet on either CAF or Stadler web sites about orders for W&B.

Other trains:
class 769: 5x4-car, Canton
class 153: 5x1-car (ex-GWR), Canton
class 170: 8x3-car, 4x2-car (ex GA), Canton
class 230: 5x3-car, Chester/Wrexham
Mk4: 3x4-car plus DVT (ex-LNER), Canton [nothing about locos for the MK4s].

There's also a lot of other information about the franchise operation, including renders of the 230 interior (p23).
Some details of the station upgrades are listed.
The render of the Civity shows "Cymru a'r Gororau/Wales & Borders" branding near the doors.

The Civity fleet will be significantly larger than the combined 175/158 fleet, at 180 vehicles versus 118.
It's just a pity there are so many 2-car units.
Chester-Manchester will be seeing both Northern's and W&B's Civitys on the route.

By the way "WCB" = Wales & Cross Borders, "CVL" = Core Valley Lines

Many thanks for posting this.

 

[superalbs]

The Tram seats look nice.

 

[Phil from Mon]

But it does say Newport-Shrewsbury resignalling, so it might be in there.

Missed that bit - what page please?

Thanks

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Missed that bit - what page please?

It's on page 20, as part of rolling out digital rail (traffic management).
Doesn't exactly gel properly with the rest of the document though.
I assume it's lifted from the NR CP6 plan.

 

[MarkyT]

I expect they'll be on an assortment of Maesteg, Ebbw Vale, Swanline and possibly Cheltenham services, depending on how far eleven sets will stretch. In short, the areas that would probably have had bi-modes if SWML electrification hadn't been cancelled.

I'm disappointed The South Wales Metro DEMUs are not also bi/trimodes as most of these will presumably be spending a fair bit of their time on the electrified reliefs between Cardiff and Severn Tunnel Junction. I suppose politically these mustn't have AC capability, despite being DEMUs of a very similar design and manufacture to the trimodes, because that might help make a case for extending the wires west of Cardiff on the main line at least to Bridgend (which could also used by the 800s let us not forget and these must now be encouraged to blow as much soot into the air and burn as much fuel oil as possible now DfT have equipped them all with engines). Let us hope Stadler are allowed to at least passively cater for adding pantographs and a main transformer in the future. I'd laugh and laugh if they had to put a great big lump of concrete in the appropriate car to compensate for the missing transformer!

 

[Gareth Marston]

5x 153s to transfer from GWR in May 19
8x 3-car, 4x 2-car 170s to transfer from Greater Anglia 'late 19'

That flushes the 15 x 2 car Pacers out.

 

[Phil from Mon]

It's on page 20, as part of rolling out digital rail (traffic management).
Doesn't exactly gel properly with the rest of the document though.
I assume it's lifted from the NR CP6 plan.

Thanks