Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

[iantherev]

That flushes the 15 x 2 car Pacers out.

That’s only half the fleet - currently the fleet has 15 x 142 and 15 x 143.

 

[OrangeJuice]

That’s only half the fleet - currently the fleet has 15 x 142 and 15 x 143.

I think that's what the extra 769's and 230's will replace. Or allow cascade of 150's to replace the remaining pacers

 

[jw]

I expect they'll be on an assortment of Maesteg, Ebbw Vale, Swanline and possibly Cheltenham services, depending on how far eleven sets will stretch. In short, the areas that would probably have had bi-modes if SWML electrification hadn't been cancelled.

I think they may actually be bi-mode, despite the DEMU tag... Flirts by Stadler, with the images showing a pantograph.

 

[Gareth Marston]

That’s only half the fleet - currently the fleet has 15 x 142 and 15 x 143.

Apologies posting whilst cooking that's 30 x 2 car Pacers.

8 x 3 car 170's , 4 x 2 car 170's. Extra 32 vehicles. 5 x 1 car 153's. 5 x 4 car 769's once 150/158 perms done. 57 extra vehicles.
5 x 3 230's replace 2 x2 car 150's.

 

[pemma]

Also confirmed is the 153s will come from GWR and none of the West Midlands 170s have been secured, only Anglia ones.

 

[gareth950]

p38 "15 sites where track is re-doubled". Anyone know where? (Perhaps we need a new thread infrastructure thread for this and electrification discussion)

Like this thread you mean?

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/south-wales-metro.117763/page-68

 

[WatcherZero]

Good one !. Thanks. Seemingly 36 x 3 according to the subsequent post. Looks a good healthy number for reliable operation through peak hours, plus sensible % of spares.

Also will knock an average 12 minutes off the current 56/57m times from the heads to Queen Street according to the presentation, down to 43-46 minutes and direct to Cardiff Bays taking 47-50 minutes.

 

[D9009Spotter]

Could this franchise provide a route out for the soon to be stored 707s? Not the most loved EMU but certainly one that deserves a good look at a future. Only came about because I was just chatting about them in another forum All for the introduction of the Stadler units. If the GA exacmpls are anything to go by, they'll be a good buy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think they may actually be bi-mode, despite the DEMU tag... Flirts by Stadler, with the images showing a pantograph.

I suspect so too - I think what they mean is "no batteries", which are needed for the discontinuous electrification plans on the Valleys but not for running on mainlines.

 

[krus_aragon]

I can't quite work out where the 170s to be cascaded from Anglia are to be deployed. The website yesterday suggested 2 car 170s for the Heart of Wales line, so are the additional 170s only staying until the Stadler tri-modes are delivered?

The 170s are staying until 2025 and beyond. My guess was that they'd be used in West Wales, but Keolis-Amey's presentation says (p.16) that they're going to be used on the likes of Ebbw/Maesteg initially, with 153s in West Wales (all arriving in 2019). Given that the 153s are going in 2023, I expect an internal cascade of the 170s to West Wales, to stay close to their brethren on the HoWL.

 

[sprinterguy]

Could this franchise provide a route out for the soon to be stored 707s? Not the most loved EMU but certainly one that deserves a good look at a future.

Not in the slightest: The rolling stock plan for the Wales & Borders franchise has now been clearly communicated, and 707s don't feature. There aren't even any fully electrified routes planned that they could be used on.

The 170s are staying until 2025 and beyond. My guess was that they'd be used in West Wales, but Keolis-Amey's presentation says (p.16) that they're going to be used on the likes of Ebbw/Maesteg initially, with 153s in West Wales (all arriving in 2019). Given that the 153s are going in 2023, I expect an internal cascade of the 170s to West Wales, to stay close to their brethren on the HoWL.

That's certainly what I'd expect to happen, down to a tee: Initial use on Ebbw Vale/Maesteg to assist in Pacer replacement by freeing up 150s, and then forming a dedicated West Wales fleet: 3-car units on West Wales services, and 2-car units on the Heart of Wales as has been stated, which seems like an excellent use of a small four unit fleet.

 

[ATW158Xpress]

The 170s are staying until 2025 and beyond. My guess was that they'd be used in West Wales, but Keolis-Amey's presentation says (p.16) that they're going to be used on the likes of Ebbw/Maesteg initially, with 153s in West Wales (all arriving in 2019). Given that the 153s are going in 2023, I expect an internal cascade of the 170s to West Wales, to stay close to their brethren on the HoWL.

The 170’s will internally be used on Ebbw Vale, and Maesteg and Cheltenham services so that the 150’s can replace Pacers on the Valleys. When the Stadler unit arrives the 170’s will then move to work in West Wales and Heart of Wales line.

 

[JetStream]

What a bizarre thing to say, the 175s are by far the most comfortable trains ATW use. They're the closest any post-BR DMU has come to looking like a Mk3 coach, externally and internally, and I'd say despite their age still the most comfortable sub-125mph DMU.

Personally, I prefer their 158s for comfort, not my a huge amount mind.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not in the slightest: The rolling stock plan for the Wales & Borders franchise has now been clearly communicated, and 707s don't feature...

Quite an amazingly off the wall suggestion given that there have already been plenty of links in this thread to exactly what’s being ordered...

 

[craigybagel]

I know the only route that's been marked down for definite for 170s is the Heart of Wales, but I do wonder if we'll see them in the North on other services as well. With Wrexham - Bidston and the HOWL going over to 230/170 operation respectively that cuts out a lot of 150 usage in that area. If Blaneau also gets 230s and Crewe-Shrewsbury remains tied in to the HOWL then you only need to replace the Crewe - Chester shuttle with 170s and you've eliminated any need for 150s in the North. It would give enough work to the Northern depots to keep them competent on 170s so they could be used as a substitute on Manchester - South Wales services instead of the current less then satisfactory solution of using 150s on Sundays and on other days of the week during unit shortages. They would also be a much better advert for the new Halton CordC services then the 150s that are expected here.

The downside of course is that those routes are in England - and it will probably be deemed better to send a 150 up there and keep the higher spec and higher speed 170s trundling up and down the Maesteg and Ebbw Vale lines instead.....

 

[Envoy]

I know the only route that's been marked down for definite for 170s is the Heart of Wales, but I do wonder if we'll see them in the North on other services as well. With Wrexham - Bidston and the HOWL going over to 230/170 operation respectively that cuts out a lot of 150 usage in that area. If Blaneau also gets 230s and Crewe-Shrewsbury remains tied in to the HOWL then you only need to replace the Crewe - Chester shuttle with 170s and you've eliminated any need for 150s in the North. It would give enough work to the Northern depots to keep them competent on 170s so they could be used as a substitute on Manchester - South Wales services instead of the current less then satisfactory solution of using 150s on Sundays and on other days of the week during unit shortages. They would also be a much better advert for the new Halton CordC services then the 150s that are expected here.

The downside of course is that those routes are in England - and it will probably be deemed better to send a 150 up there and keep the higher spec and higher speed 170s trundling up and down the Maesteg and Ebbw Vale lines instead.....

I would have thought it better to use the 170’s on the Cheltenham south Wales run rather than Maesteg to Ebbw Vale. I say this because many long distance passengers to/from south Wales change to XC at Cheltenham and it really does seem to be a downgrade to have to endure a 150 (or even a Pacer today) for the south Wales leg. In fact, it would be even better if such services were extended to serve Worcester to even Kidderminster so that towns like Droitwich could have a direct service to the south with all the interchange possibilities that are offered at Cheltenham. Failing the introduction of 170’s on the Cheltenham route, then surely 769’s should be used as they could make use of the wires between Cardiff & STJ.

 

[daikilo]

I know the only route that's been marked down for definite for 170s is the Heart of Wales, but I do wonder if we'll see them in the North on other services as well. With Wrexham - Bidston and the HOWL going over to 230/170 operation respectively that cuts out a lot of 150 usage in that area. If Blaneau also gets 230s and Crewe-Shrewsbury remains tied in to the HOWL then you only need to replace the Crewe - Chester shuttle with 170s and you've eliminated any need for 150s in the North. It would give enough work to the Northern depots to keep them competent on 170s so they could be used as a substitute on Manchester - South Wales services instead of the current less then satisfactory solution of using 150s on Sundays and on other days of the week during unit shortages. They would also be a much better advert for the new Halton CordC services then the 150s that are expected here.

The downside of course is that those routes are in England - and it will probably be deemed better to send a 150 up there and keep the higher spec and higher speed 170s trundling up and down the Maesteg and Ebbw Vale lines instead.....

Looking at the Keolis/Amey document, the 170s are shown as more than just (e.g.) the Maestegs and Ebbws. I suspect they will also appear on some Cheltenhams and possibly on Pembroke Docks and Fishguards when the 153s disappear.

Unless they add more than the initial 5 230s, the spare will just be a fill-in (Borderlands will require 4).

I cannot find any specific reference in the document to the stock for either the Crewe-Chester, Crewe-Shrewsbury locals, or the Conway Valley.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So 170s on the Blaenaus then? Would be nice, though with their slow acceleration possibly not as well suited as a 230.

 

[pemma]

So 170s on the Blaenaus then? Would be nice, though with their slow acceleration possibly not as well suited as a 230.

Regarding electric tram-train vs Pacers vs 150 vs 170 performance this might be interesting. It's part of a tram-train study of the Altrincham to Greenbank line where there's no over 60mph running and 7 intermediate stations. D-Trains hadn't been thought up when the report was done but I'd be surprised if they can perform as well as electric tram-trains.

Image description to comply with forum rules - The 170 beats the current 142/150 timings by around 1 minute but with a semi-fast pattern the timing improvement would be slightly better. However, a 60mph tram-train would beat the current 142/150 timings by 4 minutes. While if you were running a semi-fast 170 timings would be on a par with a 50mph tram-train.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I know the only route that's been marked down for definite for 170s is the Heart of Wales, but I do wonder if we'll see them in the North on other services as well. With Wrexham - Bidston and the HOWL going over to 230/170 operation respectively that cuts out a lot of 150 usage in that area. If Blaneau also gets 230s and Crewe-Shrewsbury remains tied in to the HOWL then you only need to replace the Crewe - Chester shuttle with 170s and you've eliminated any need for 150s in the North. It would give enough work to the Northern depots to keep them competent on 170s so they could be used as a substitute on Manchester - South Wales services instead of the current less then satisfactory solution of using 150s on Sundays and on other days of the week during unit shortages. They would also be a much better advert for the new Halton CordC services then the 150s that are expected here.

The downside of course is that those routes are in England - and it will probably be deemed better to send a 150 up there and keep the higher spec and higher speed 170s trundling up and down the Maesteg and Ebbw Vale lines instead.....

230's wont go down Conwy Valley - its not in anything released its very specific about Bidston line and you need 4 units a day plus the 5th as a spare for 2 tph on it. The presentations mentioned that they would be based Wrexham/Chester - suggesting that they will normally overnight in Wrexham. I think they will use the south bays at Wrexham General - reusing the old WSMR facilities which of course Welsh Government paid for!

With one fast and one all stops service the incoming fast will turn around as the next stopper and vice versa so better layover times and reliability.

The Conwy Valley will eventually use the Civitys as will the Cambrian coast locals the benefits of a homogeneous fleet outweighing using anything else. The Conwy valley could be integrated into the Liverpool to Llandudno diagrams. As to what will turn up on it after the 230's start on the Bidston line and before the Civitys are delivered as there's no other need to cart 150's up to North Wales don't be surprised if 158' and 175's go down it.

The eventual units for the Crewe to Shrewsbury stoppers remains unclear as does whether they will be integrated with HOW (or even Cambrian- the promise was hourly AYW to SHR not AYW to BHI in theory it could be AYW to CRE every 2 hours.)

Whilst 4 x 2 Car 170's for the HOW would seem to suggest Swansea to Shrewsbury only. The 8 x 3 car units woudl probably cover the Pembroke Dock and Fishguard services.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

he Conwy Valley will eventually use the Civitys as will the Cambrian coast locals the benefits of a homogeneous fleet outweighing using anything else. The Conwy valley could be integrated into the Liverpool to Llandudno diagrams. As to what will turn up on it after the 230's start on the Bidston line and before the Civitys are delivered as there's no other need to cart 150's up to North Wales don't be surprised if 158' and 175's go down it.

Pretty sure 175's & 158's aren't cleared for the Conwy Valley.

 

[pemma]

Pretty sure 175's & 158's aren't cleared for the Conwy Valley.

ATW applied to get 158s cleared for both Borderlands and Conwy Valley but Network Rail rejected the request. I don't think they've ever tried to use 175s on either line.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

ATW applied to get 158s cleared for both Borderlands and Conwy Valley but Network Rail rejected the request. I don't think they've ever tried to use 175s on either line.

As I thought, thanks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Integrating the Conwy Valley into the Llandudno regional service could bring a real benefit - maybe not a frequency increase but perhaps trains at more useful times. Using a single unit precludes clockface as well as having both a useful morning and evening commuter run.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Bit off topic, but just a quick one, does anyone know why the Conwy Valley trains almost all have at least a ten minute sit at Llandudno Junction.

We leave Llandudno, get to the Junction 8 minutes later then sit for ten minutes and wait. This happens on most valley services that come from Llandudno It is nothing to do with platforms or pathing as there is plenty of platforms at and track at Llandudno and the Junction .

Quite annoying. Why not just leave Llandudno 10 minutes later?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good question. I was going to say "because of the regular interval" but departures from Llandudno are not regular interval.

Possibly pathing related?

 

[krus_aragon]

ATW applied to get 158s cleared for both Borderlands and Conwy Valley but Network Rail rejected the request. I don't think they've ever tried to use 175s on either line.

Specifically, they were rejected on account of slow door-opening times and inability to keep to the current timetable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Specifically, they were rejected on account of slow door-opening times and inability to keep to the current timetable.

Interesting, as 153s are glacially slow and I'm not sure the doors are any quicker than 158s. 175 doors are definitely faster than both.

 

[berneyarms]

Bit off topic, but just a quick one, does anyone know why the Conwy Valley trains almost all have at least a ten minute sit at Llandudno Junction.

We leave Llandudno, get to the Junction 8 minutes later then sit for ten minutes and wait. This happens on most valley services that come from Llandudno It is nothing to do with platforms or pathing as there is plenty of platforms at and track at Llandudno and the Junction .

Quite annoying. Why not just leave Llandudno 10 minutes later?

If they left 10 mins later they would miss the connection into the service from Holyhead at Llandudno Junction.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Good question. I was going to say "because of the regular interval" but departures from Llandudno are not regular interval.

Possibly pathing related?

Definitely not pathing related, Llandudno and Llandudno Junction have more than enough capacity at all times. Anyway shall leave this as nothing to do with this thread. Was just a quick one wondering if anyone knew. Thanks.