Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[urpert]

For the record, it is 700s on Vic - Sevenoaks today. No PIS though and the one after this is cancelled :-/

 

[NorthKent1989]

Well, when they *do* start making it through the core on a regular basis, it is something I'll still be very much looking forward to.

You claimed nobody wanted RailPlan 2020 (the completed, fully working version). I did and still do.

I never once claimed that no one wanted RailPlan 2020, what I have said that Medway never wanted or needed Thameslink.

 

[MML]

I've been waiting for through trains from GN pretty much from when they first mooted Thameslink 2000.

I'd be interested to know whether people from GN stations want Thameslink because they want to get to Core stations and London Bridge rather than continue their commute via Underground from KX or whether they want to visit Horsham, Littlehampton or Rainham.
Living on the MML all my life, I have only ever used Thameslink for London and Gatwick Airport. I haven't even ventured to Brighton yet, but perhaps I have lived a sheltered existence.
I would say so long as I can get as far as London Bridge, East Croydon and Gatwick Airport, connections elsewhere are easy.
So perhaps the increased network is too ambitious and difficult at least for now.
Admittedly, folks in Littlehampton probably want to get to the Core stations rather than Victoria, yet I'm guessing few want to regularly visit stations on the MML apart from perhaps Luton airport.

 

[jon0844]

Which doesn't work if the train does not know its location.

True. I've seen that happen a few times.

 

[jon0844]

Nice one!

Now we can get back to the business in hand, namely discussing the cut and thrust of the new timetable - and, let's face it, it's nearly all cut and very little thrust!

And let's make sure we talk about the rail timetables, as bus timetables and timekeeping almost makes this current (rail) mess seem acceptable in comparison!

 

[Failed Unit]

I'd be interested to know whether people from GN stations want Thameslink because they want to get to Core stations and London Bridge rather than continue their commute via Underground from KX or whether they want to visit Horsham, Littlehampton or Rainham.
Living on the MML all my life, I have only ever used Thameslink for London and Gatwick Airport. I haven't even ventured to Brighton yet, but perhaps I have lived a sheltered existence.
I would say so long as I can get as far as London Bridge, East Croydon and Gatwick Airport, connections elsewhere are easy.
So perhaps the increased network is too ambitious and difficult at least for now.
Admittedly, folks in Littlehampton probably want to get to the Core stations rather than Victoria, yet I'm guessing few want to regularly visit stations on the MML apart from perhaps Luton airport.

I think we had a poll on this a while ago.

Vast majority (including myself) want to use the core stations. Change on underground at Farringdon or Blackfriars for example.

The next large slice of the pie want more destinations with 1 change. London Bridge opens up a lot of the south east. Expect reasonable amount of Stevenage- Gatwick airport traffic.

I don’t think if WGC ever gets trains to the core I will go beyond London Bridge (forget now if the Maidstone trains go via London Bridge or Elephant and castle). But the single change will be nice.

I wouldn’t be surprised if people do visit Cambridge from East Croydon once the direct trains are running (reliably)

 

[JonathanH]

If the connections work, travelling back from the North to Southern destinations may well be easier with cross platform interchange at Stevenage rather than going into London and walking to St Pancras (or catching the underground for Victoria).

I travelled back from Wakefield on Thursday evening with the intention of travelling through to Redhill from Stevenage - unfortunately, the connection is not one that is currently running but the timings can be competitive against going from Kings Cross to Victoria.

Unfortunately, the cheapest tier of advanced tickets (EC & Connections) on East Coast aren't apparently valid on Thameslink for some reason.

Journey must include travel on the following main TOC: VIRGIN TRAINS EAST COAST
Connecting travel (where permitted by routeing) is allowed on:
TRANSPENNINE EXPRESS, CROSSCOUNTRY, SERCO CALEDONIAN SLEEPER, EAST MIDLANDS TRAINS,
SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY, SCOTRAIL, SOUTHERN, GREATER ANGLIA,
GWR, HEATHROW EXPRESS, HEATHROW CONNECT, NORTHERN,
WEST MIDLANDS TRAINS.

 

[bramling]

Well, when they *do* start making it through the core on a regular basis, it is something I'll still be very much looking forward to.

You claimed nobody wanted RailPlan 2020 (the completed, fully working version). I did and still do.

I’m alright Jack if I travel from a station which has alternatives - in the case of Cambridge there is not only the fast King’s Cross service but also GA. Other stations aren’t so fortunate.

We’ve seen very clearly over the last few weeks what the effects can be at such stations - Arlesey and Sandy have been badly hit. People don’t want the through service if it’s going to be unreliable.

Why do some people seem so opposed to a compromise solution with a bit of both?

So far RailSham2020 has already caused a lot of hardship for a lot of people, far outweighing any through journey benefits.

 

[AM9]

I think we had a poll on this a while ago.

Vast majority (including myself) want to use the core stations. Change on underground at Farringdon or Blackfriars for example.

The next large slice of the pie want more destinations with 1 change. London Bridge opens up a lot of the south east. Expect reasonable amount of Stevenage- Gatwick airport traffic.

I don’t think if WGC ever gets trains to the core I will go beyond London Bridge (forget now if the Maidstone trains go via London Bridge or Elephant and castle). But the single change will be nice.

I wouldn’t be surprised if people do visit Cambridge from East Croydon once the direct trains are running (reliably)

Having seen the steady growth of MML Thameslink through-core journeys over the last 25 years, I'm convinced that when the current manning issues are dealt with and the planned timetable is running with a reasonable* reliability, the patronage on the new cross-London routes will grow. Not having to trudge through subways to squeeze onto packed tube platforms is a real boon, just ask anyone who previously changed onto the Northern or Jubilee at London Bridge. The core services will be even more attractive when Crossrail opens giving easy access to Heathrow, Canary Wharf and Stratford (without the HS1 premium). Those who are looking beyond the current problems can see the benefits of these new opportunities.
There have been posts from some here criticising the expansion of routes that supplant SE, SN and particularly GN services since the introduction of the class700s. Following the protests that the seating/layout etc., was not to their personal liking compared with earlier generation stock designed for lower density traffic, the arguments against the deployment on new routes (that would affect them) were constructed around the supposition that the new timetable could never work. Granted that the DfT and GTR have mismanaged the launch of the new timetable (for whatever the reason was before the 20th May, the reality is that the provision of sufficient staff with the appropriate training is given the highest priority is the only way ahead. The viability of the new timetable can only be proven when operated fully manned.
It may be then that some services need adjusting in route, stopping patterns or just timing, but just abandoning them because there are (quite severe) teething problems will set the provision of rail services back decades. The loss of capacity by not running through the core won't suddenly be mitigated by acres of new terminal platforms being built in the next ten years. Even if massive capital funding was available (no chance!), finding room for such developments as well as the increased trackage to feed the expanded throats at these super terminals, just doesn't exist anywhere inside the M25.
Meanwhile, I sympathise with everybody struggling to use the GTR services at the moment, (I do not need to commute) but it will improve and the true effectiveness of the timetable can be assessed. Once Grayling has been removed from his position, I believe that a more conciliatory approach to reasonable compensation will be introduced.


* no rail services are 100% reliable and many regularly have disruption that work-arounds by both operators and passengers enable them to provide an acceptable service.

 

[Stampy]

Just having a look on the CORE section at the minute and it says "ITEM 28" in the slots between Blackfriars and Elephant & Castle ...

Does this mean anything?
It's all T3's and *X** just past E&C.

Presuming it's something to do with a line closure??

​

 

[Bedpan]

I'd be interested to know whether people from GN stations want Thameslink because they want to get to Core stations and London Bridge rather than continue their commute via Underground from KX or whether they want to visit Horsham, Littlehampton or Rainham.
Living on the MML all my life, I have only ever used Thameslink for London and Gatwick Airport. I haven't even ventured to Brighton yet, but perhaps I have lived a sheltered existence.
I would say so long as I can get as far as London Bridge, East Croydon and Gatwick Airport, connections elsewhere are easy.
So perhaps the increased network is too ambitious and difficult at least for now.
Admittedly, folks in Littlehampton probably want to get to the Core stations rather than Victoria, yet I'm guessing few want to regularly visit stations on the MML apart from perhaps Luton airport.

I think that some of it will depend on the day/time of day. I am about 50/50 but hardly ever travel in the morning peak. The connections point you make is very relevant. For instance if you wanted to go from MML to Tonbridge it was a very easy change with a wait of only a few minutes at London Bridge.

Probably since the advent of railways we have had the tried and tested state of affairs where you have longer distance express trains and shorter distance local trains. So you would catch a local train to your nearest major station and then an express to or near your destination, with another local train (or maybe bus) to finish your journey. Even Thameslink used to have Thameslink City Flyer and Thameslink Metro. In the good old days you could for instance get from Harpenden to Brighton in 1hr 40 mins (ought to be quicker now following the improvements around Londpon Bridge). If you wanted to go to Purley, you would change at East Croydon and wait a few minutes.

The new Thameslink timetable turns all that on its head. They run long distance stopping services which are of less use to people trasvelling through the core aqnd out the other side. Harpenden to Brighton is now 1 hr 50 mins due to extra stops, and there are only two trains an hour. The Medway service is even worse, 2 hrs 7 mins trundling from Harpenden to Chatham but you can save more than half an hour by changing at St Pancras. A second faster alternative will be available via Farringdon and Abbey Wood when Crossrail opens. Admittedly I can now get a direct train from Harpenden to Charlton, but changing at London Bridge was never a problem. What is there that is exciting thing about the new journey opportunities? To me its a huge disappointment after putting up with so much upheaval over the last 10 years or so. Disappointing? Not half!

 

[JonathanH]

Just having a look on the CORE section at the minute and it says "ITEM 28" in the slots between Blackfriars and Elephant & Castle ...

Does this mean anything?
It's all T3's and *X** just past E&C.

Presuming it's something to do with a line closure??

View attachment 48115​

Yes, it is a possession for engineering work.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/what-are-eo-and-on-open-train-times.138422/#post-2788434

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...n-sorry-if-wrong-section.137701/#post-2767395

 

[GoatSarah]

I'd be interested to know whether people from GN stations want Thameslink because they want to get to Core stations and London Bridge rather than continue their commute via Underground from KX or whether they want to visit Horsham, Littlehampton or Rainham.

I specifically travel from Cambridge to the south coast a lot.

It also connects us to Gatwick.

But come Crossrail, a direct service to Farringdon will give us a really good connection to Heathrow too.

The airport connections when you have luggage are really valuable.

 

[Bromley boy]

I think that some of it will depend on the day/time of day. I am about 50/50 but hardly ever travel in the morning peak. The connections point you make is very relevant. For instance if you wanted to go from MML to Tonbridge it was a very easy change with a wait of only a few minutes at London Bridge.

Probably since the advent of railways we have had the tried and tested state of affairs where you have longer distance express trains and shorter distance local trains. So you would catch a local train to your nearest major station and then an express to or near your destination, with another local train (or maybe bus) to finish your journey. Even Thameslink used to have Thameslink City Flyer and Thameslink Metro. In the good old days you could for instance get from Harpenden to Brighton in 1hr 40 mins (ought to be quicker now following the improvements around Londpon Bridge). If you wanted to go to Purley, you would change at East Croydon and wait a few minutes.

The new Thameslink timetable turns all that on its head. They run long distance stopping services which are of less use to people trasvelling through the core aqnd out the other side. Harpenden to Brighton is now 1 hr 50 mins due to extra stops, and there are only two trains an hour. The Medway service is even worse, 2 hrs 7 mins trundling from Harpenden to Chatham but you can save more than half an hour by changing at St Pancras. A second faster alternative will be available via Farringdon and Abbey Wood when Crossrail opens. Admittedly I can now get a direct train from Harpenden to Charlton, but changing at London Bridge was never a problem. What is there that is exciting thing about the new journey opportunities? To me its a huge disappointment after putting up with so much upheaval over the last 10 years or so. Disappointing? Not half!

It’s very worrying that, even putting the current woes aside, it doesn’t seem that the new timetable is delivering an improved service to many parts of the network.

The timetable change has also worsened things for many parts of the SE network - the “last call for the Gillingham fasts” thread being evidence of this.

 

[Failed Unit]

Bad again this weekend. WGC down to 1 tph (to Moorgate) at the moment. Guess we should think ourselves luck we get that.

 

[OwenB]

Bad again this weekend. WGC down to 1 tph (to Moorgate) at the moment. Guess we should think ourselves luck we get that.

That's pretty awful, the WGC-MOG has been something of a saviour over the past few weeks.

 

[malc-c]

Sorry - you clearly have no experience of either managing large change projects or running a large business.

This call for "public sackings" has got completely out of hand in this country. And the CEO would not have been responsible for every task on the project - so let's get the whole project team fired if we're going down that route, right down to the administrators and planners.

It may well be the case that the CEO's etc are not in touch with the day to day running of the company, but the bottom line is that someone managed this project, be that a team or individual, and they messed up big time, and have brought the companies involved into disrepute. Under most employment contracts if you screw up big time you face dismissal. It's not as if the changes caused a little disruption for a day or so, but to have to cancel the 100+ services each day for weeks, possibly months shows how major this cock up is. Now whether the chain of authority take the blame for the management underneath them, it would finally reach the top with the "buck stops here" at the CEO's feet. Whether the resigning of the CEO's or transport minister for that matter has no real practical resolve for the mess the railways are currently in is irrelevant, but it might appease all those who have to deal with this on a daily basis.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Bad again this weekend. WGC down to 1 tph (to Moorgate) at the moment. Guess we should think ourselves luck we get that.

That is truly desperate .......

 

[The Box Photter]

Almost none, but you're missing the point. It was claimed that nobody wants the Railplan 2020 services. Plenty of us want those services.

The fact that GTR's attempt to implement them has resulted in complete meltdown of their east coast mainline services is independent of whether they'd be useful services that people want if they were actually able to run them.

Where do you NEED to get to that couldn't have been accomplished previously by getting a train to Kings X then the tube? I emphasise the word NEED, because at the moment in order to accommodate your unmet NEED, there are passengers who currently can't get to work, or home again in the evening because their existing service has been cancelled completely.

I accept that it's a lovely concept to get on a train in Cambridge and not have to get off again until Blackfriars or East Croydon. It would also be lovely to use the train to get to Brighton occaisionally. But because of these new "journey opportunities" being implemented (or not) the knock-on dislocation to the rest of the timetable has prevented passengers from making the journeys they already NEED to make so they can get to work to earn the money they NEED to live on.

If you couldn't make the journey previously, you can't miss it when it's unavailable. If you HAD to make a journey previously and that's no longer possible because of Thameslink's incompetence, I think you'd be reasonably annoyed. That's the position most of us are in.

 

[The Box Photter]

I specifically travel from Cambridge to the south coast a lot.

It also connects us to Gatwick.

But come Crossrail, a direct service to Farringdon will give us a really good connection to Heathrow too.

The airport connections when you have luggage are really valuable.

But do you do it every day? There are long-standing passengers on both GN and Bed-Pan lines who are now having to reconsider their employment options because their once reasonably reliable service has been reduced to an unreliable shambles. How hard was it for you to get the train to Kings Cross, stroll to St Pancras and then get a Brigton train from there? I'd suggest a lot easier than it is for some people who are now looking for new jobs.

 

[Stampy]

Yes, it is a possession for engineering work.

I guessed that bit, just wondering if the ITEM 28 was anything in particular...

 

[bramling]

I specifically travel from Cambridge to the south coast a lot.

It also connects us to Gatwick.

But come Crossrail, a direct service to Farringdon will give us a really good connection to Heathrow too.

The airport connections when you have luggage are really valuable.

Wonderful. So for some occasional theoretical journey opportunities, others now can’t use their established service to get to work.

I have had to make alternative arrangements, thankfully I knew from the off this would be a disaster so have already made my mitigations months ago (not renewing the season ticket and buying an extra car), albeit leaving a massive sour taste in the mouth.

Even when these crewing issues are resolved, if they are, it’s going to leave an unreliable and unpredictable service. How much more of a shambles does this failed plan have to descend before people start waking up and realising the railway isn’t capable of delivering and operating this?

 

[bramling]

But do you do it every day? There are long-standing passengers on both GN and Bed-Pan lines who are now having to reconsider their employment options because their once reasonably reliable service has been reduced to an unreliable shambles. How hard was it for you to get the train to Kings Cross, stroll to St Pancras and then get a Brigton train from there? I'd suggest a lot easier than it is for some people who are now looking for new jobs.

Exactly right.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

No train in either direction at Welwyn North for over two hours this afternoon
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...09/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt

 

[gingerheid]

My hope for Thameslink from GN would be the reducing the number of changes needed thing (and maybe Gatwick, but how often?). Thameslink + Crossrail could be amazing!

I don't see how it can work though The timetable was already fragile enough. It was the easiest piece of infrastructure to put in place and it has happened for that reason, even though KX was probably the terminal facing north least suitable for using it.

 

[the Rat]

I'm not sure those of us who can't see the plusses of this disaster should be blaming those who might possibly benefit should this timetable ever work. It wasn't their incompetence that screwed things up for everyone, we all know where the blame lies for that.

As it is I reckon those who might value a through journey would probably give up all hope of that simply to get their old services back.

 

[Steve Harris]

I'm not sure those of us who can't see the plusses of this disaster should be blaming those who might possibly benefit should this timetable ever work. It wasn't their incompetence that screwed things up for everyone, we all know where the blame lies for that.

As it is I reckon those who might value a through journey would probably give up all hope of that simply to get their old services back.

I totally agree. However,

For people to post 'when the "teething troubles" are sorted out it will be wonderful' when right now some stations have gone from a half hour service to virtually nothing it really grates to be honest.

When we have started something which resembles a service then and only then will it not stoke the fire. Because right now that is what they are doing, so its not exactly surprising that some posters are not reacting in a 'positive way' to the 'oh it will be wonderful' brigade.

As you rightly say, most of us just want our old services back. Then we can build from there.

 

[otomous]

Where do you NEED to get to that couldn't have been accomplished previously by getting a train to Kings X then the tube? I emphasise the word NEED, because at the moment in order to accommodate your unmet NEED, there are passengers who currently can't get to work, or home again in the evening because their existing service has been cancelled completely.

I accept that it's a lovely concept to get on a train in Cambridge and not have to get off again until Blackfriars or East Croydon. It would also be lovely to use the train to get to Brighton occaisionally. But because of these new "journey opportunities" being implemented (or not) the knock-on dislocation to the rest of the timetable has prevented passengers from making the journeys they already NEED to make so they can get to work to earn the money they NEED to live on.

If you couldn't make the journey previously, you can't miss it when it's unavailable. If you HAD to make a journey previously and that's no longer possible because of Thameslink's incompetence, I think you'd be reasonably annoyed. That's the position most of us are in.

But changing to the tube is ALWAYS less convenient unless it happens to be a same level interchange. I know, I’ve always lived in SE London. I’d love the Bakerloo line to takeover the Hayes line so I’d have a slower but direct journey to the West End and beyond. Of course if I need to get to Paddington I can do it, but that doesn’t stop it being less convenient - as I found recently getting from Heathrow to SE London with even just one case. But the folk who have been getting a Networker to Cannon Street without changing are TERRIFIED of the prospect of this changing. It’s the same principle. Yes it’s a mess now but that doesn’t negate the whole concept. We KNOW we can’t get longer or higher trains so there are limited options for raising their capacity; we know we can’t expand terminals to accommodate more trains; we know resignalling for higher capacity is a long way off yet; we know new lines are even less likely. Thameslink is a way of adjusting what we have to work differently. I don’t necessarily say better in every way, as there are sacrifices in terms of fewer seats or the need to alter travel patterns established for decades. So do we never change anything for fear of upsetting some people. Interface with the Crossrail and other means to the growth Docklands areas and the eventual Metro style service through the core are not to be sniffed at. I personally think the changeover shouldn’t have happened until the full staffing resources were in place but that doesn’t mean the whole project is worthless.

 

[the Rat]

I totally agree. However,

For people to post 'when the "teething troubles" are sorted out it will be wonderful' when right now some stations have gone from a half hour service to virtually nothing it really grates to be honest.

When we have started something which resembles a service then and only then will it not stoke the fire. Because right now that is what they are doing, so its not exactly surprising that some posters are not reacting in a 'positive way' to the 'oh it will be wonderful' brigade.

As you rightly say, most of us just want our old services back. Then we can build from there.

Yeah I understand that and especially when your daily services have been decimated and all they can think about is their once a year trip to the airport. Sad truth is I don't think they'll be getting their through services for quite some time. It's more than teething problems, I can't even see a full set of dentures sorting this out...

 

[The Box Photter]

But changing to the tube is ALWAYS less convenient unless it happens to be a same level interchange. I know, I’ve always lived in SE London. I’d love the Bakerloo line to takeover the Hayes line so I’d have a slower but direct journey to the West End and beyond. Of course if I need to get to Paddington I can do it, but that doesn’t stop it being less convenient - as I found recently getting from Heathrow to SE London with even just one case. But the folk who have been getting a Networker to Cannon Street without changing are TERRIFIED of the prospect of this changing. It’s the same principle. Yes it’s a mess now but that doesn’t negate the whole concept. We KNOW we can’t get longer or higher trains so there are limited options for raising their capacity; we know we can’t expand terminals to accommodate more trains; we know resignalling for higher capacity is a long way off yet; we know new lines are even less likely. Thameslink is a way of adjusting what we have to work differently. I don’t necessarily say better in every way, as there are sacrifices in terms of fewer seats or the need to alter travel patterns established for decades. So do we never change anything for fear of upsetting some people. Interface with the Crossrail and other means to the growth Docklands areas and the eventual Metro style service through the core are not to be sniffed at. I personally think the changeover shouldn’t have happened until the full staffing resources were in place but that doesn’t mean the whole project is worthless.

Changing to the tube is more convenient than not knowing whether there will be a train at your station in the morning to take you to work or worrying how long you'll be stuck in London waiting fro your train home. If you've always lived in SE London, you've no idea what it's like to get to Blackfriars or Farringdon or City Thameslink and see the mass cancellations of trains to your destination on the board for the next hour or two. There's no alternative route, no tube to Harpenden and the buses stop running after 18.30. At least in SE London you've access to the most intensive local bus network in Europe and it's entirely possible to travel from Central London to anywhere in the rest of London by bus.

Give us country bumpkins a break.