urpert
Member
For the record, it is 700s on Vic - Sevenoaks today. No PIS though and the one after this is cancelled :-/
Well, when they *do* start making it through the core on a regular basis, it is something I'll still be very much looking forward to.
You claimed nobody wanted RailPlan 2020 (the completed, fully working version). I did and still do.
I'd be interested to know whether people from GN stations want Thameslink because they want to get to Core stations and London Bridge rather than continue their commute via Underground from KX or whether they want to visit Horsham, Littlehampton or Rainham.I've been waiting for through trains from GN pretty much from when they first mooted Thameslink 2000.
Which doesn't work if the train does not know its location.
Nice one!
Now we can get back to the business in hand, namely discussing the cut and thrust of the new timetable - and, let's face it, it's nearly all cut and very little thrust!
I'd be interested to know whether people from GN stations want Thameslink because they want to get to Core stations and London Bridge rather than continue their commute via Underground from KX or whether they want to visit Horsham, Littlehampton or Rainham.
Living on the MML all my life, I have only ever used Thameslink for London and Gatwick Airport. I haven't even ventured to Brighton yet, but perhaps I have lived a sheltered existence.
I would say so long as I can get as far as London Bridge, East Croydon and Gatwick Airport, connections elsewhere are easy.
So perhaps the increased network is too ambitious and difficult at least for now.
Admittedly, folks in Littlehampton probably want to get to the Core stations rather than Victoria, yet I'm guessing few want to regularly visit stations on the MML apart from perhaps Luton airport.
Journey must include travel on the following main TOC: VIRGIN TRAINS EAST COAST
Connecting travel (where permitted by routeing) is allowed on:
TRANSPENNINE EXPRESS, CROSSCOUNTRY, SERCO CALEDONIAN SLEEPER, EAST MIDLANDS TRAINS,
SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY, SCOTRAIL, SOUTHERN, GREATER ANGLIA,
GWR, HEATHROW EXPRESS, HEATHROW CONNECT, NORTHERN,
WEST MIDLANDS TRAINS.
Well, when they *do* start making it through the core on a regular basis, it is something I'll still be very much looking forward to.
You claimed nobody wanted RailPlan 2020 (the completed, fully working version). I did and still do.
I think we had a poll on this a while ago.
Vast majority (including myself) want to use the core stations. Change on underground at Farringdon or Blackfriars for example.
The next large slice of the pie want more destinations with 1 change. London Bridge opens up a lot of the south east. Expect reasonable amount of Stevenage- Gatwick airport traffic.
I don’t think if WGC ever gets trains to the core I will go beyond London Bridge (forget now if the Maidstone trains go via London Bridge or Elephant and castle). But the single change will be nice.
I wouldn’t be surprised if people do visit Cambridge from East Croydon once the direct trains are running (reliably)
I'd be interested to know whether people from GN stations want Thameslink because they want to get to Core stations and London Bridge rather than continue their commute via Underground from KX or whether they want to visit Horsham, Littlehampton or Rainham.
Living on the MML all my life, I have only ever used Thameslink for London and Gatwick Airport. I haven't even ventured to Brighton yet, but perhaps I have lived a sheltered existence.
I would say so long as I can get as far as London Bridge, East Croydon and Gatwick Airport, connections elsewhere are easy.
So perhaps the increased network is too ambitious and difficult at least for now.
Admittedly, folks in Littlehampton probably want to get to the Core stations rather than Victoria, yet I'm guessing few want to regularly visit stations on the MML apart from perhaps Luton airport.
Just having a look on the CORE section at the minute and it says "ITEM 28" in the slots between Blackfriars and Elephant & Castle ...
Does this mean anything?
It's all T3's and *X** just past E&C.
Presuming it's something to do with a line closure??
I'd be interested to know whether people from GN stations want Thameslink because they want to get to Core stations and London Bridge rather than continue their commute via Underground from KX or whether they want to visit Horsham, Littlehampton or Rainham.
I think that some of it will depend on the day/time of day. I am about 50/50 but hardly ever travel in the morning peak. The connections point you make is very relevant. For instance if you wanted to go from MML to Tonbridge it was a very easy change with a wait of only a few minutes at London Bridge.
Probably since the advent of railways we have had the tried and tested state of affairs where you have longer distance express trains and shorter distance local trains. So you would catch a local train to your nearest major station and then an express to or near your destination, with another local train (or maybe bus) to finish your journey. Even Thameslink used to have Thameslink City Flyer and Thameslink Metro. In the good old days you could for instance get from Harpenden to Brighton in 1hr 40 mins (ought to be quicker now following the improvements around Londpon Bridge). If you wanted to go to Purley, you would change at East Croydon and wait a few minutes.
The new Thameslink timetable turns all that on its head. They run long distance stopping services which are of less use to people trasvelling through the core aqnd out the other side. Harpenden to Brighton is now 1 hr 50 mins due to extra stops, and there are only two trains an hour. The Medway service is even worse, 2 hrs 7 mins trundling from Harpenden to Chatham but you can save more than half an hour by changing at St Pancras. A second faster alternative will be available via Farringdon and Abbey Wood when Crossrail opens. Admittedly I can now get a direct train from Harpenden to Charlton, but changing at London Bridge was never a problem. What is there that is exciting thing about the new journey opportunities? To me its a huge disappointment after putting up with so much upheaval over the last 10 years or so. Disappointing? Not half!
That's pretty awful, the WGC-MOG has been something of a saviour over the past few weeks.Bad again this weekend. WGC down to 1 tph (to Moorgate) at the moment. Guess we should think ourselves luck we get that.
Sorry - you clearly have no experience of either managing large change projects or running a large business.
This call for "public sackings" has got completely out of hand in this country. And the CEO would not have been responsible for every task on the project - so let's get the whole project team fired if we're going down that route, right down to the administrators and planners.
Bad again this weekend. WGC down to 1 tph (to Moorgate) at the moment. Guess we should think ourselves luck we get that.
Almost none, but you're missing the point. It was claimed that nobody wants the Railplan 2020 services. Plenty of us want those services.
The fact that GTR's attempt to implement them has resulted in complete meltdown of their east coast mainline services is independent of whether they'd be useful services that people want if they were actually able to run them.
I specifically travel from Cambridge to the south coast a lot.
It also connects us to Gatwick.
But come Crossrail, a direct service to Farringdon will give us a really good connection to Heathrow too.
The airport connections when you have luggage are really valuable.
Yes, it is a possession for engineering work.
I specifically travel from Cambridge to the south coast a lot.
It also connects us to Gatwick.
But come Crossrail, a direct service to Farringdon will give us a really good connection to Heathrow too.
The airport connections when you have luggage are really valuable.
But do you do it every day? There are long-standing passengers on both GN and Bed-Pan lines who are now having to reconsider their employment options because their once reasonably reliable service has been reduced to an unreliable shambles. How hard was it for you to get the train to Kings Cross, stroll to St Pancras and then get a Brigton train from there? I'd suggest a lot easier than it is for some people who are now looking for new jobs.
I totally agree. However,I'm not sure those of us who can't see the plusses of this disaster should be blaming those who might possibly benefit should this timetable ever work. It wasn't their incompetence that screwed things up for everyone, we all know where the blame lies for that.
As it is I reckon those who might value a through journey would probably give up all hope of that simply to get their old services back.
Where do you NEED to get to that couldn't have been accomplished previously by getting a train to Kings X then the tube? I emphasise the word NEED, because at the moment in order to accommodate your unmet NEED, there are passengers who currently can't get to work, or home again in the evening because their existing service has been cancelled completely.
I accept that it's a lovely concept to get on a train in Cambridge and not have to get off again until Blackfriars or East Croydon. It would also be lovely to use the train to get to Brighton occaisionally. But because of these new "journey opportunities" being implemented (or not) the knock-on dislocation to the rest of the timetable has prevented passengers from making the journeys they already NEED to make so they can get to work to earn the money they NEED to live on.
If you couldn't make the journey previously, you can't miss it when it's unavailable. If you HAD to make a journey previously and that's no longer possible because of Thameslink's incompetence, I think you'd be reasonably annoyed. That's the position most of us are in.
I totally agree. However,
For people to post 'when the "teething troubles" are sorted out it will be wonderful' when right now some stations have gone from a half hour service to virtually nothing it really grates to be honest.
When we have started something which resembles a service then and only then will it not stoke the fire. Because right now that is what they are doing, so its not exactly surprising that some posters are not reacting in a 'positive way' to the 'oh it will be wonderful' brigade.
As you rightly say, most of us just want our old services back. Then we can build from there.
But changing to the tube is ALWAYS less convenient unless it happens to be a same level interchange. I know, I’ve always lived in SE London. I’d love the Bakerloo line to takeover the Hayes line so I’d have a slower but direct journey to the West End and beyond. Of course if I need to get to Paddington I can do it, but that doesn’t stop it being less convenient - as I found recently getting from Heathrow to SE London with even just one case. But the folk who have been getting a Networker to Cannon Street without changing are TERRIFIED of the prospect of this changing. It’s the same principle. Yes it’s a mess now but that doesn’t negate the whole concept. We KNOW we can’t get longer or higher trains so there are limited options for raising their capacity; we know we can’t expand terminals to accommodate more trains; we know resignalling for higher capacity is a long way off yet; we know new lines are even less likely. Thameslink is a way of adjusting what we have to work differently. I don’t necessarily say better in every way, as there are sacrifices in terms of fewer seats or the need to alter travel patterns established for decades. So do we never change anything for fear of upsetting some people. Interface with the Crossrail and other means to the growth Docklands areas and the eventual Metro style service through the core are not to be sniffed at. I personally think the changeover shouldn’t have happened until the full staffing resources were in place but that doesn’t mean the whole project is worthless.