Train Driving Vs Airline Pilot

[SPADTrap]

1 through a student pilot suicide

Holy! Do you have any more information on that? Never thought about that before. I've been pondering an instructor rating recently but realistically won't have the time to use it. It is funny though (not ha-ha funny, if you know what I mean) when I started working on aerodromes before doing my ATPL I was told I'd likely know someone who will die in aviation and pretty soon it started happening and it was a shock.

 

[Emmsie]

Holy! Do you have any more information on that? Never thought about that before. I've been pondering an instructor rating recently but realistically won't have the time to use it. It is funny though (not ha-ha funny, if you know what I mean) when I started working on aerodromes before doing my ATPL I was told I'd likely know someone who will die in aviation and pretty soon it started happening and it was a shock.

One instructor was a Brother in arms part of the Cuban rescue out of Miami. The cubans said they would shot down anyone who flew into their airspace, turned out they were serious and shot him down, the 2nd one involved an emergency where an instructor and student had an engine failure, landed safely and another instructor with a student flying in the area took the controls and took the plane down to 50ft at Minimum airspeed then stalled and hit the ground nose 1st and the 3rd was the suicide where the student pushed the yoke forward and held it there despite the instructors efforts to take back control. there was a 4th incident at TMB although not an instructor where he worked on his plane mechanically and then took the plane up for its aiworthiness certificate which it catastrophically failed. I had a near miss myself when a student pilot was told to take a narrow pattern and I was told to take a wide pattern and somehow he ended up 3' underneath me. I could only see his face and the cockpit, bloody terrifying

 

[Bromley boy]

One instructor was a Brother in arms part of the Cuban rescue out of Miami. The cubans said they would shot down anyone who flew into their airspace, turned out they were serious and shot him down, the 2nd one involved an emergency where an instructor and student had an engine failure, landed safely and another instructor with a student flying in the area took the controls and took the plane down to 50ft at Minimum airspeed then stalled and hit the ground nose 1st and the 3rd was the suicide where the student pushed the yoke forward and held it there despite the instructors efforts to take back control.

Those scenarios all sound very extreme indeed.

Can you cite any official documents to back up what you have said above?!

 

[Emmsie]

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/cuba/article4556647.html Flew out of Opa Locka but one of the pilots was an instructor at TMB
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/19...e-engine-plane-flight-instructor-tim-monville

theres 2 of them the suicide isn't listed but this is a similar incident with the instructor surviving. http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2016/oct/12/official-plane-crash-appears-to-be-suicide-try-1-d/
PS I tend not to be a liar

 

[Bromley boy]

Deleted.

 

[GB]

Pilots also have auto pilot! That comes on about 2000 feet after take off. Also Aircraft's can land themselves. Train drivers need to be turn on 24/7 when behind the controls. Watching every person on busy platforms, level crossing and watching Signal.

Are you suggesting that if a plane is on autopilot, the actual pilots don't need to have their attention at 100%?
Autopilot cannot land itself if the conditions are not right.

 

[Dieseldriver]

The equivalent of auto pilot in a train is running at a constant linespeed in clear visibility on greens for sustained periods of time Still can't completely lower your concentration levels as you still have to be alert to all manner of scenarios that could need you to react to.
Very similar to a Pilot on auto pilot I would have thought, they aren't sat there half asleep, they will still need to be alert.
In fact, I'd argue that's one of the challenges of both jobs, maintaining concentration and alertness during sustained periods of a relatively low workload.
Both jobs carry the responsibility of many peoples safety who are relying on the Pilot/Train Driver.

 

[H4R]

Apologies, I kind of thought this thread had died but just caught up. I know I didn’t start it but really appreciating the insight, much more balanced than other forums where I’ve posted similar threads. Thanks Shaw S Hunter for taking the time to respond to my question, I can focus with repetitive tasks better than many I know it’s just weighing up the benefits of doing so. It’s a shame you can’t just “shadow” a driver to get a feel for it, I assume there is a policy against it?

Regardless of which you choose, you have to manage your health and sleeping patterns very carefully. Sadly, there's quite a few funeral order of service cards on the noticeboards with 195x and 196x on them.

Are you suggesting the work patterns may be linked to premature death? Or just the sedentary lifestyle?

Interesting thread.

I drive trains, fly privately myself (hour building and doing the commercials), and I’m good friends with an airline pilot who is an experienced first officer at a U.K. charter airline based at Gatwick.

He loves his job but freely admits it was a slog to get there. £100kish to train with no guarantee of a job. He started training in late 2006 when the market was good and qualified just as the crash happened. He then had to pay RYR EUR 30k for a type rating (and was very lucky to even get that).

He then spent several years being gimped by RYR, sent to random European bases (not much of a life).

He loves his job (and very few people have that level passion for their work on the railway, sadly). Even at his level, the stability isn’t great. He is on the 75/6 and the fleet is being retired in the next couple of years and he faces the choice of going for a command on the 73 at another U.K. base or applying to another airline to remain at Gatwick. He could change to the 787 fleet at his current airline but would then need to spend half the year flying from Helsinki I believe.

He now earns a base salary in the mid £60ks but with flight pay I think his total earnings are around £90k. That’s a good salary of course but I don’t think it’s *that* good considering the sacrifices to get there and the risk.

Bromley Boy- Sounds like your friend may have crossed the T’s dotted the I’s and put U in the middle? (Sorry couldn’t resist ). In all seriousness though it’s very easy to look immediately at the top sallary on the likes of “pilot jobs network” to justify the ridiculous training costs. Conveniently forgetting the years of seniority building, uncertainty and “gimping” around Europe it takes to get there. I think private flying is the way forward and if things do miraculously change at least you’ve got a head start. Question is how much private flying can you realistically do as a train driver?

 

[Bromley boy]

Are you suggesting the work patterns may be linked to premature death? Or just the sedentary lifestyle?

Definitely the work patterns, being up at extreme ends of the day. Train driving isn’t any more sedentary than your typical office job.

The shifts are the worst aspect of the job, by a long way.

Bromley Boy- Sounds like your friend may have crossed the T’s dotted the I’s and put U in the middle?

Good guess (perhaps unsurprisingly, he preferred their previous name ).

I think private flying is the way forward and if things do miraculously change at least you’ve got a head start. Question is how much private flying can you realistically do as a train driver?

That’s an interesting question. Flying as a hobby is never “cheap” but, within reason, can be as inexpensive as you choose to make it.

The airfield I fly from incorporates a range of flying, from from “thrasher” microlights at the low end (you could get a microlight PPL for £3-4K and then fly one for £60ish per hour) right through to to jet provosts and L-39s which burn £1000+ per hour in fuel. At the top end there’s a well known (in flying circles) bloke who owns several warbirds including a spitfire and a mustang. Flying the circuit can be “interesting”, depending on what’s about.

A “full” PPL (allowing hours flown to count towards the commercial license and additional ratings) would cost around £7-£10k to obtain.

Once you have a PPL flying around, as I do, in your typical spam can (PA28, C172 etc.), if you belong to a group, can be around £100-150 per hour + £70 fixed cost per month. That’s not the cheapest method of flying, but still isn’t that unfavourable compared to some other hobbies (think shooting, golf, cars etc.)- especially if you share trips. One of you flies out, the other flies back - double the distance for the same cost.*

Of course serious touring in complex aircraft (think Cirrus, Saratoga etc.) rapidly becomes prohibitively expensive.

Lots of people get a PPL, run out of ideas, get bored and give up - the reason is more often time than money - blocking out a Saturday to do a GA flight is problematic when you have a young family.

Funnily enough my mate who flies commercially doesn’t do much PPL stuff at all as he finds it downright scary. He says he wants to get back into it but wants to try gliding, aerobatics, grass strip bashing etc. rather than A-B stuff. As he puts it, his A-B “fix” comes from being paid to fly jets around at 500mph+, shooting ILS approaches in horrible WX,regularly going flying when he doesn’t want to. He therefore doesn’t want to replicate that on his days off, while paying for the privilege! Makes perfect sense.

*there’s a few of us pilots on here, at various levels, I’m wondering whether this might be an idea for a seperate “private flying” thread to share experiences... and maybe even share trips. Watch this space...

 

[H4R]

Some interesting inside info, definitely think starting a private flying thread would be a good idea!

I’ve done a lot of research into “modular” training and understand the hour building requirements/ costs and what have you. But costs have been the limiting factor thus far. Done a few lessons but can’t afford to keep up anything meaningful at the moment. I must say I didn’t appreciate the difference in running costs between a “spam can” and a cirrus though!

blocking out a Saturday to do a GA flight is problematic when you have a young family.

Yes that and the shifts I would imagine make time for any hobby I wondered how you manage to fit it in?

At the same time I could see that if you were disciplined with sleep management, shifts could be quite good, getting to spend different parts of the day at home. Maybe I’m being naive?

 

[dctraindriver]

At the same time I could see that if you were disciplined with sleep management, shifts could be quite good, getting to spend different parts of the day at home. Maybe I’m being naive?

Maybe you are being naive, after my last early shift waking up at 2 AM I don’t have the inclination to wipe my bum let alone fly a plane..............

 

[Bromley boy]

Maybe you are being naive, after my last early shift waking up at 2 AM I don’t have the inclination to wipe my bum let alone fly a plane..............

Speaking for yourself there .

The shifts are tough, for sure, but there’s plenty of scope to have interests beyond your day job with the four day week and a decent salary behind you...

 

[Johncleesefan]

Maybe you are being naive, after my last early shift waking up at 2 AM I don’t have the inclination to wipe my bum let alone fly a plane..............

Haha, it’s a time of day no man should have to see unless incltoxicated and all through self doing.

Man need coffee, man need big coffee ☕️

 

[Economist]

Bromley boy, that sounds like a good idea. Funnily enough I was at the gliding club yesterday, good fun though very hot, especially given we have perspex canopies.

H4R, unfortunately I do think that shift work can lead to an earlier death, the lack of a permanent corcadian rhythm can damage some people wuite a bit I think.

 

[H4R]

@dctraindriver I think wiping is over rated any way . @BromleyBoy you seem to be one of those people that seems to get a few more hours in their day than anyone else; something I can aspire to. Just reading all this is making me want to get another lesson! I’ll keep an eye out for the new thread.

 

[H4R]

H4R, unfortunately I do think that shift work can lead to an earlier death, the lack of a permanent corcadian rhythm can damage some people wuite a bit I think.

Missed this sorry, I had suspected this might be an issue I seem to remember reading it in some human factors text somewhere... something to look into.

 

[yorkie]

Private flying thread can now be found here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/flight-training-private-flying.166545/

 

[H4R]

Thanks Yorkie