Northern Station Improvements & New Ticket Machines

[skifans]

Maybe in addition to the ticket machine system some sort of app system could be used. Maybe you have to scan an NFC beacon or barcode on the platform through an app which serves as a P2P. I can't see a way to do it with GPS as you could do it as soon as you see the conductor. Again wouldn't be able to replace the ticket machine for people without/don't want to use a smartphone, but could cut help to keep queues down if this proves problematic and could be quicker then going through all the buttons on the ticket machine and less prone to abuse.

Edit: Suppose though this would be open to abuse if someone just took photos/nfc duplicates of all the stations on their train. And simply scanned the last one only when they saw the conductor come through.

 

[geoffk]

Recent experience suggests that Northern staff are not using discretion when applying penalty fares, as user groups were promised by Northern. We have a lot of unstaffed stations in the Greater Manchester/West Yorkshire border area and some have a TVM on only one platform. Where the station is accessed from a nearby road bridge, the walk between platforms can be time-consuming if the TVM is on the wrong platform for your direction of travel, e.g. a journey from Mills Hill to Rochdale. It appears that just telling them the TVM was not working is not sufficient as they think you're lying.

The Manchester Evening News carries an item which says "A Northern spokesman has clarified that all passengers WILL still be able to buy tickets on board from a conductor - despite the campaign being called ‘Buy Before you Board’. Northern Rail passengers who try to buy a ticket on the train will have to pay DOUBLE the fare - or a £20 fine. The only difference will be that those passengers who can’t prove they tried to buy a ticket before boarding won’t be able to get a cheaper-rate ticket, and will have to buy a standard one. Has that not always been the rule, although seldom enforced?

I'm waiting to see what happens when I want to extend my journey using a TfGM pass beyond the Gtr. Manchester boundary and the ticket office is closed here in the afternoon. Will the conductor guard issue the add-on ticket with railcard discount or will I have to pay full fare, or get off, buy another ticket and wait (maybe half an hour) for the next train?

 

[WatcherZero]

They are trying to stop people buying tickets after they have arrived at their destination where they could simply lie about their origin. So the emphasis is on buy before you board from a machine, office or online and if you cant you have the backup of buying onboard but if you didn't buy at your origin and you didn't buy on board we don't wont you thinking you can just buy at your destination unless you can prove you attempted to (for example the attempted to buy permit issuing machines).

 

[johntea]

Castleford finally has one of the new TVMs in the process of being installed!

 

[js1000]

Recent experience suggests that Northern staff are not using discretion when applying penalty fares, as user groups were promised by Northern. We have a lot of unstaffed stations in the Greater Manchester/West Yorkshire border area and some have a TVM on only one platform. Where the station is accessed from a nearby road bridge, the walk between platforms can be time-consuming if the TVM is on the wrong platform for your direction of travel, e.g. a journey from Mills Hill to Rochdale. It appears that just telling them the TVM was not working is not sufficient as they think you're lying.

The Manchester Evening News carries an item which says "A Northern spokesman has clarified that all passengers WILL still be able to buy tickets on board from a conductor - despite the campaign being called ‘Buy Before you Board’. Northern Rail passengers who try to buy a ticket on the train will have to pay DOUBLE the fare - or a £20 fine. The only difference will be that those passengers who can’t prove they tried to buy a ticket before boarding won’t be able to get a cheaper-rate ticket, and will have to buy a standard one. Has that not always been the rule, although seldom enforced?

I'm waiting to see what happens when I want to extend my journey using a TfGM pass beyond the Gtr. Manchester boundary and the ticket office is closed here in the afternoon. Will the conductor guard issue the add-on ticket with railcard discount or will I have to pay full fare, or get off, buy another ticket and wait (maybe half an hour) for the next train?

I was on a train from East Didsbury to Manchester Piccadilly last Wednesday. A couple didn't buy a ticket before boarding. The conductor let them off as it was the first week of it being implemented.

I don't have a problem with the system. As long as you choose your destination from the station of origin via the TVM and collect a promise to pay card then it covers the can't pay by cash problem.

However I just hope they ensure the unmanned TVMs are working. Too often they are not working or have run out of tickets for printing. The new ones are quite unreliable.

 

[js1000]

Is there a maximum number of tickets you can buy in one transaction? If not how does making it more complex to get a Promise To Pay notice help prevent people emptying out the ticket stock?

Regarding the bold part have passengers with learning disabilities been considered?

Of course not. Welcome to the railways of 2018 operated by private corporations!

 

[erk]

Is there a maximum number of tickets you can buy in one transaction?

If you want to buy tickets with railcard discounts, the maximum is one.

 

[185143]

Well, that was interesting.

I arrived at Newton le Willows in good time to board the 11:43 TPE service to Lime Street. (Note: Not a Penalty Fares train) There was a queue about 4 deep at the ticket office and someone was trying to buy some rangers that the clerk was having difficulty selling.

I heard the train roll in and another member of staff stood by the ticket office offering information told me to go and get on the train. I told the guard before boarding that I needed a ticket, so he said he'd sell me one. However, the guard's machine wouldn't sell it and I was told to buy it in Liverpool...

Which was where I met the Penalty Fare squad! I asked for a Saveaway from the ticket seller, and was-not unsurprisingly-challenged by the PF staff. They asked why I hadn't bought a ticket-so I explained the situation. I was told about the Penalty Fares, but that I wasn't going to get one on this occasion. I was also told that I should have got a P2P from the TVM, which doesn't yet issue them (yes, really!) And that the staff member at Newton le Willows had no authority to tell me to board the train, and I should have missed my train to wait and buy a ticket.

Firstly, surely station staff DO have authority to tell people to board and secondly, more to the point, I was not travelling on a Penalty Fares train!

 

[Howardh]

Well, that was interesting.

I arrived at Newton le Willows in good time to board the 11:43 TPE service to Lime Street. (Note: Not a Penalty Fares train) There was a queue about 4 deep at the ticket office and someone was trying to buy some rangers that the clerk was having difficulty selling.

I heard the train roll in and another member of staff stood by the ticket office offering information told me to go and get on the train. I told the guard before boarding that I needed a ticket, so he said he'd sell me one. However, the guard's machine wouldn't sell it and I was told to buy it in Liverpool...

Which was where I met the Penalty Fare squad! I asked for a Saveaway from the ticket seller, and was-not unsurprisingly-challenged by the PF staff. They asked why I hadn't bought a ticket-so I explained the situation. I was told about the Penalty Fares, but that I wasn't going to get one on this occasion. I was also told that I should have got a P2P from the TVM, which doesn't yet issue them (yes, really!) And that the staff member at Newton le Willows had no authority to tell me to board the train, and I should have missed my train to wait and buy a ticket.

Firstly, surely station staff DO have authority to tell people to board and secondly, more to the point, I was not travelling on a Penalty Fares train!

Just out of interest - and not a suggested course of action - if a passenger got so frustrated by "authority" have they the right to simply hand over their name and address, say "let's talk to a judge" and simply walk away, leaving the onus on "authority" to back themselves up in court if they want to issue penalty tickets/fares?

 

[185143]

I've since recieved confirmation from TPE that Penalty Fares do not apply when travelling on their services, but I could be charged a higher fare-so an Anytime. Hence why I told the guard before boarding I needed a ticket.

If station staff aren't authorised to allow me to board then:
A) Who is? The guard? Who DID allow me to board! No one?
B) That's not my problem. If a member of staff tells me I can do something, I'm going to do it!
C) As a passenger, how am I meant to know who is an authorised person to allow me to board the train and who isn't?

And also, given Northern's current performance, is it really reasonable to expect someone to miss a train purely to buy a ticket when they are travelling to a barriered station anyway!

I know you've said before that you feel authority should only be given in writing. Given that there are still TVMs not issuing promise to pay slips-including at the station I boarded at-it wouldn't be difficult to give the staff something so they can say to passengers 'just get on the train and give the guard/station staff this and you won't get "fined"' But this is Arriva. And that costs money...

 

[185143]

Just out of interest - and not a suggested course of action - if a passenger got so frustrated by "authority" have they the right to simply hand over their name and address, say "let's talk to a judge" and simply walk away, leaving the onus on "authority" to back themselves up in court if they want to issue penalty tickets/fares?

Hmm... interesting....

I'd have taken them to court, frankly, given that:
A) The queuing time was excessively long.
B) The TVM didn't accept my payment method.
C) The TVM didn't sell the ticket I wanted.
D) The next train was 'delayed'
E) I'd been given permission by both station staff (Northern staff too, not agency) and the guard on the train I used!
F) *I was not travelling on a Penalty Fares train!*

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Castleford finally has one of the new TVMs in the process of being installed!

Hold the celebrations if you're an MCard user, as the Batley machine is still rejecting cards as defective when they clearly aren't (as they can be topped-up at Bus Station travel centres, and are able to operate both ticket barriers and ticket machines on buses). "New" is not a synonym for "better" on the railway, for sure!

 

[johntea]

The new machines seem to be very unreliable, I have just walked through Harrogate station and 4 of the 5 machines in the booking office are out of service!

Correction : all 5 are out of order! Is there a central system issue?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

There some work going on at Wakefield Kirkgate, the entrance is partially closed off by some barriers and there's some wood on the floor presuming that it's covering the electrics - could Kirkgate be getting the new TVM's too?

I know its got one of the old style TVM's on platform 1 but I have no idea if these works are linked to installation of the new videowall TVM's.

 

[bearhugger]

New TVM at Whitby on the @EVRDC twitter feed.
https://twitter.com/EVRDC/status/1001818820569387014

#trythetrain. new TICKET

Vending Machine going into #Whitby station.

2:33 PM - 30 May 2018

 

[cactustwirly]

At least you had to put something in the box. A few pence at least covers the cost of printing the ticket, whereas if someone gets a permit to travel and there's no ticket checks the TOC have made a small loss.

Out of interest how does the Permit To Travel work at stations with a ticket office but where the ticket office isn't open from first to last train? Can a Permit To Travel only be obtained at certain times and can those times be updated if the ticket office doesn't open or close as scheduled for whatever reason?

They only work when the TO is closed

 

[johntea]

Northern still haven't sorted out the Reject Passback issue with Aztec code scanned tickets at the main barriers at Leeds (not sure about the Southern barriers), I bought a Castleford to Harrogate ticket today got out of the barriers fine, went to Wetherspoons for a coffee so was a good half hour, came back and...reject passback! Got around it by just scanning the return portion code but then that prevented me getting out of the barriers (and back in) again on the way back!

No wonder queues start to build up and people get frustrated when they can't even work out quite simple breaks in the journey almost 2 years since the paper tickets and scanners were introduced!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There some work going on at Wakefield Kirkgate, the entrance is partially closed off by some barriers and there's some wood on the floor presuming that it's covering the electrics - could Kirkgate be getting the new TVM's too?

I know its got one of the old style TVM's on platform 1 but I have no idea if these works are linked to installation of the new videowall TVM's.

I'm pretty sure they had some of the new machines on platform 1 at Kirkgate when I was last there, at least a month ago. I could be mistaken though.

 

[Killingworth]

There's a certain irony that we make a big fuss about shaving a few minutes off station to station train times when the door to door journey times are what matters for passengers. When, say, 90 people want to buy tickets for a train there'll be a long queue at a booking office or TVM. If that 90 people board without tickets the guard/conductor/train manager is going to struggle.

My local station lost it's booking office in the 1960s and over 90 passengers do regularly board commuter trains. We now have a new Northern TVM which is out of service as often as it seems to work. The large shiny screen faces east into the morning sunshine making it very hard to read the screen at commuting times.

When users try to collect pre-booked tickets they tend to leave their debit card in the slot too long which causes the machine to go into panic mode and shut down. It usually, but not always, restarts after 2 or 3 minutes. Fortunately not all of the 90 collect just before the train leaves. Some have season tickets, some collected tickets in advance and more are using etickets but it is quite normal for a number to board without a valid ticket. How the conductor is expected to know when every TVM on the route was and wasn't working is a challenge.

I'll be travelling later today. I've called at the station twice to pick up the tickets, both times the single TVM wasn't working. Third time lucky maybe, but I'll try to get there in good time.

 

[thejuggler]

The TVM situation is becoming ever more frustrating. Each one now seems to operate differently. One TVM I use has a full list of popular destinations, one button and the ticket can be purchased.

Others currently have no popular journeys which means going through the whole choose your destination and ticket. At busy stations with lots of routes I can understand this, but at a station with 2 services an hour in each direction and only 5 direct destinations it become difficult to fathom why it should be.

 

[skyhigh]

A notice has recently gone up stating that planning permission is being sought for the installation of lifts at Headingley - does anyone know anything more about this?

 

[xotGD]

Ticket machine now installed and in service at Knottingley.

However, the two waiting shelters have been demolished. Hopefully replacements will arrive before the fine weather breaks.

 

[SodTheDrummer]

There some work going on at Wakefield Kirkgate, the entrance is partially closed off by some barriers and there's some wood on the floor presuming that it's covering the electrics - could Kirkgate be getting the new TVM's too?

I know its got one of the old style TVM's on platform 1 but I have no idea if these works are linked to installation of the new videowall TVM's.

Similar situation at Hall I' Th' Wood this morning - wood on the floor and some studs being put in - had a chat with two friendly Orangemen who confirmed the works (on both platforms) are for ticket machine installation.

 

[geoffk]

Ticket machine now installed and in service at Knottingley.

However, the two waiting shelters have been demolished. Hopefully replacements will arrive before the fine weather breaks.

Probably not that many wait on the Goole-bound platform!

 

[Puffing Devil]

Groundworks commenced at my local station, complete with safety barriers securing the site.

Unfortunately all works now seem to have ground to a halt, leaving the Parking Ticket machine isolated behind the "do not pass" barriers. Free parking again!

 

[IanXC]

Probably not that many wait on the Goole-bound platform!

Both platforms can be, and are used to depart towards Pontefract.

 

[td97]

Similar situation at Hall I' Th' Wood this morning - wood on the floor and some studs being put in - had a chat with two friendly Orangemen who confirmed the works (on both platforms) are for ticket machine installation.

One of these will probably get the record for fastest time to be vandalised after installation

 

[transmanche]

One of these will probably get the record for fastest time to be vandalised after installation

That prize may go to Dunston, where this happened in April.

Northern touch-screen ticket vending machine at Dunston station, heavily vandalised.
Source

 

[johntea]

It is one thing installing them but reliability once they are installed still seems to be a huge problem! The one at Castleford has spent more time out of service than in service since installation!

I can also see Leeds to Knottingley and/or Sheffield via Castleford soon getting hit by the Northern Promise To Pay scheme!

 

[xotGD]

The Knottingley machine was out of service by tea-time.